importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

There seems to be some misleading reasons we need 3rd axis adjustment.Some think the only reason for it is to compensate for shooters torque(that is part of the reason)


Also,there seems to be some bad info on how to properly set a 3rd axis.You do not set it to your sight bar,however that is the easiest way to get it set,1 more step must be taken if you choose to use the bar.You must set the sight bar square with the arrow.



Here are some pics to help explain why this is true.


This picture is of a level sitting on a level surface.




Here is a pic of the same level being rotated as if you are shooting downhill.You can see the level is starting to move out of center.reason is you are changing planes and the level isn't level with the next plane.







Here is the same level laying almost completely flat on the next plane.See how the bubble is almost gone.







This is exactly what will happen if a level isn't set properly in the 3rd axis.




Here is a level that I made that is level and square in all planes.See how accurate it is as you rotate as if shooting downhill.


Flat on level surface.





here it is as if rotated slightly downhill.
Notice,it is still level.





Here it is laying flat on the surface and still level.





Here is how most check there 3rd axis.To the bar.





The problem is that as proof from the above pics,if the level isn't square in all planes,the level will have to be adjusted out of level to read level.Remember the arrow represents another plane,therefore,it also has to be square with the level.


If the level is set on a table to the sight bar,as you can see,if the arrow isn't running EXACTLY parrallel with the sight bar,it will not be accurate.



So there are a couple of solutions to this problem.You can continue to use the sight bar to set the 3rd axis and then make sure the sight bar is running parrallel with the bar.All that is needed to do this is just shim the sight bar so that when it is adjusted in and out,the arrow will have the same left and right impact.That will square the arrow to the bar and your 3rd axis will be dead on.

This will also take care of shooter induced torque that many think is the reason for 3rd axis adjustment.


Or you can buy a product like the one in this link that makes the adjustment easier.
http://www.archerytech.com/


The other way is to set up the 3rd axis actually shooting on a hill and that require much trial and error imo.That will automatically get the arrow square with the level and sight.


Hope this makes sense and is usefull info to someone out there.




This info is mainly for the serious competitive shooter that needs the extra advantage of properly set up equipment.

Hunting bows will see little benefit to this because you can miss the spot by an inch or two and still have a dead animal.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

TFOX,

Here is the method that came with my G5 Optix ME.
1. Using a plumb bob, or similar, hang from elevated position. i.e. ceiling
2. Nock an arrow and kneel down on the floor while holding bow.
3. Draw bow back with nocked arrow and aim up toward the plumb bob. now align the top and bottom pin to the plumb bob. Take a look at the bubble vial.
4. Let bow down from full draw carefully. Make adjustment to bubble vial by loosing and tightening set screws.
5. Repeat steps 3 & 4 until bubble vial is perfectly aligned at full draw.

What's your thoughts on this method?

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

That may get you close because you are actually drawing up on an angle and shooter induced torque will be compensated for but what is going to happen if your riser isn't square with your arrow?


Your sight bar is at an angle,therefore,you have not set the bubble square with the arrow.Meaning your bubble will be off on downhill/uphill shots.


It may be close or it may not.


The best way to check isif the sight can bemoved in and out.Take the sight and move it in as far as it will go.Shoot a couple arrows at say 30 yards.Then move the sight bar out as far as it will go then shoot again.The arrows will impact on a differenthorizontal plane but they should hit on the same vertical plane.(same left and right).


If they are not the same,shim the bar in or out so that they are the same plane.Then your 3rd axis will be set properly,via the 4rth axis.


Can you see why this subject has so many confused,even the manufactuers of the sights?

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

I see what you are saying. Before I bought my sight I was reading about 3rd and 4th axis and just thinking to myself this is confusing. I thought about buying a sight with 4th axis and just figured the heck with it.

Ijust started using the bubble after owning the bow for 8 months.

Will moving it as little as3/4 inch have enoughaffect for testing? I only have 2 holes and no sliding bar on the G5.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

If the bow is strictly hunting then that should be more than enough to set up the 3rd axis.


Funny you need to use the 4rth axis to set the 3rd axis properly.The 4rth really has no real advantage when set.Unless you are using a slide bar andslide it in to gain yardage for long range shots.



Here is a diagram explaining the different axis.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

It's strickly a hunting bow. So, unless I'm shooting long range (50 yds or more?) I shouldn't really worry about the 4th axis anyway?

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Don't worry about the 4rth,unless the 3rd is off.regardless if it is a hunting bow or target bow.


3rd has to be square with the arrow to be accurate.Most people use the bar to set the 3rd axis,not the arrow.


Go to the link I posted and read up on how they tell you to set the level,then it should come together in your mind.


4rth just aligns the arrow with the bar,making setting the 3rd to the bar accurate.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

"T" man I remember when the 4th axis conceptwas put up over on "THAT" other forum and it caused a big stirr because people did not understand it.

I guess I am lucky enough to live close to Ken Stanislawski when him and Gene developed the Tek-tech 4th axis to see it first hand and the benefits of the concept.

The 3rd axis sight leveler is what I use to set my 3rd axis in conjuction with the 4th axis of course;)

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Ausie,is it Gene that would post pictures of his sight setup with bow cant?


I wanted to post a picture of that in another discussion and didn't have any idea of where to find it but I was pretty sure he had something to do with the 4rth axis device.

I was doing this before that tool ever came out,I learned it from someone that has setup bows for a couple world record holders.

That is a sweet setup too,if I still shot a slide bar,I would be using that instead of the old creditcards that I used for shims.:DOf course I probably would have made my own,I am cheap that way.



See level above,I wouldn't even buy one of those,I made mine but mine is much better.[:-]

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

If you change the left/right of your arrow say for paper tuning, would you not need to redue your fourth axis adjustment? In your illustrations is the bubble not in the center because the level is twisted as you are laying it down, or putting it in the next plane? If this is the case then will it not be fine on your bow as long as you set the 3rd axis to your style of grip so that it is perfectly perpendicular to you. Then when you are in the other planes, uphill/downhill, it will be fine? Right? Im a little bit confused.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

SMALLadjustment to the rest probably won't hurt you with the 3rd but that is what makes that little gadjet that I linked too so great,very simple to use.

AND NO,I DO NOT REPRESENT THEM IN ANYWAY,just a great product imo.

The 4rth is totally irrelevant to how well a level will perform,but when adjusting your 3rd,the fourth is the easiest way to get it right because the 3rd is easiest to set off the bar of a slide bar sight and the 4rth can be used to shoot it in.

basically you square the sight with the sight bar on a fixture and then mount on bow.(most stop here but the sight isn't square with the arrow and it is another plane you need to be square with!!!)Then you just adjust the 4rth axis,(sight bar) with the arrow and you are set perfect for any angle shot you wish to take.

I did not twist the level at all.I actually tested this level on a completely level surface at work.I was able to shim the level on 1 end and reset the level with the shim under it and it still be level when I laid it down,proving that the level in the protractor wasn't square with the next plane as I rotated it over.(The level stayed in contact with the surface the whole time)



The level that I made can be spun in a circle on the same surface and show level all the way around.


The 3rd axis has to be set perpendicular to the arrow PERIOD,your grip style comes into that equation and that is a good reason that the 3rd needs to be checked when shooting the bow.The 4rth axis tool does that.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

I would like to add that this isn't an easy concept to grasp for most.It took me awhile before it started "making since" in my head.

Once it clicked,it is so simple it is scary.

Don't worry if it isn't popping in your head right off,it will come if you really want to learn it and are trying to setup this kind of equipment.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

"T" I cant remember if it was Gene, Ken or both who where posting those pics (I thinkI have old timers setting in ):D

But your right it is so simple it is scary it just sounds hard;)

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

great, I'm still chewing on papertuning, walkback, french kissing, euh, no, it's french tuning...and all of that...

and this is something else, I'm ordering the G5 Optix sight in a few days with the help of DavePjr and this doesn't make sense to me at all....

well, I'll wait until I get my sight and then start panicing !!

F.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

TFOX,

I just read another article that talks about 3rd axis tuning. They basically say to adjust the 3rd axis shooting parallel to ground and then adjust it by aiming at a 45 degree upward angle. This is supposed to eliminate errors for up or downhill shots.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

I stated that earlier,there are 2 ways to set the 3rd axis.Shooting it in on a hill was one of them and is a very accurate way to do it,but,imo is a more tedious way to do it.

I do most of my tuning at home and I don't have a long 45 deg hill either.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Don't overthink this,it is not that difficult and isn't nearly as important on a hunting bow as it is on a target bow.

I don't even have a 3rd axis adjustment on my hunting bow.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

thx for those comforting words T, I needed that.......;)

F.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Is really important at all, on any kind of bow. I mean all it really is, is to check for torque at long ranges right? So it is just a referance it doesn't affect accuracy at all does it?

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

WRONG ,you totally missed the point of this whole thread.

If you watch your bubble and it isn't set right,you will cant your bow to get the bubble right,but it will be lying to you.

If your 3rd axis isn't set right,when you shoot a target downhill at 40 yards,you could be off several inches.


Now think about those that shoot uphill at an 80 yard target.They could miss by a foot if the 3rd axis isn't properly set.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: TFOX

If you hang a weight from the ceiling and get on your knees to draw and aim up at 45 degrees you can accomplish the same thing. I think in a bad way that's what the G5 method was recommended.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Yes, but what I meant was that if you didn't have the 3rd axis at all. And, you just relied on good form. Then you could go into any plane and still have it shooting straight.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

It isn't about form.

When you shoot on hills,the human mind has a tendancy to sight in with the terrain so you will align the bow up with the ground.That means you will have a cant in the bow.You can balance the bow so that it hangs level but you will have a tendancy on hills to match up to your surroundings.


That is the whole reason for the level but the level has to correct to be accurate.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Ok, but hen will that not be the same from a treestand then? Therefore should it be done for hunting? Another qeustion. When you said you shim your sight bar with old credit cards, would that not just move the sight bar out from the riser? Not actually move it on the 4th axis?

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

You don't just shim it out,you put the cards in the front or back to move the pins in or out.

If you need to move the pins in,put the shim in front of the mounting screws.


If you need to move the pins out,put the shims behind the mounting screws.


Yes,the same applies for hunting but most risers are square enough to get the bar and arrow running parralel with each other and just use a 2nd axis level.You are notneeding to hit a 1" circle at 40 yards to kill a deer.If it makes you feel better,then by all means get the 3rd set for hunting.Mine is very close but probablynot perfect.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Dave,hanging a weight from the ceiling does not take into account the arrows path.You must shoot a bow to get the 3rd properly set to it.

Either on a hill or with a 4rth axis tool.

The arrow is another plane that the level has to be square with.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Im sorry if this qeustion is really dumb but, can't you just move the windage adjustment for your pins? I thought you wanted to get you sight bar sqaure with the arrow?

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

But you are trying to square the bar with arrows path,moving thewindage doesn't accomplish anything but moving the pins.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Ok, I have researched other sources andI understand the concept, but it says that it only helps the archers that have sights with extension bars. How would you do it for a fixed bar sight?

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

You would probably have to shoot it in on a hill.

A little trial and error.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

I also read about walk up tuning. Where you shoot at a vertical line at 15 yds with one arrow, then 12, then 9 then 6 then finally 3 each with one arrow. Would that work?

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

No, that just sets the centershot.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Most people set their sight90 deg to the sight bar.If the sight bar isn't parralel with the arrow,the 3rd axis isn't set properly.(unless shot in on a hill)



The sight must be set 90 deg to the arrow to be accurate.


You can leave the sight and bar 90 degto each other but then you will have to shim the sight bar so it is running parralel with the arrow,or the sight pins must be 90 deg to the arrow.


One or the other or both.



See picture

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

You must have one of these examples to be set properly.This should be done at full draw to compensate for shooter and bowtorque.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Another good article



http://www.fastestbows.com/articles/hogs_fly/hoggs_fly_vol_19.htm

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

My 3d axis has been saving my butt left and right shooting 3D in and along the hills and valleys at the course I shot on today. If you want to see the results I have a thread in the Bowhunting section called Baltimore Bowmen 3D Shoot.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Yours may be very close and doesn't need the 4rth,I believe the bowtecs riser does get the sight very square with the arrow if centershot is right.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Yepper, it's important in any scenario where you are shooting on severe up and downhill angles. Out of a treestand is critical, because nearly every shot will be on a hard angle.

Here's a picture of me from this past weekend @ full draw on a 43 yard bedded buck on a sharp angle downhill.........an improperly adjusted 3rd axis could easily throw this arrow way out of the 10 ring, and that's not nearly as hard of an angle as a treestand could produce. I use a Medicine Stone jig for setting my third axis along with a HTM string attachable level.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

Yes we shoot out of deerstands for hunting and 3rd axis is important but most bows are fairly close with just the 2nd axis to kill a deer efficiently.

When shooting targets we try to hit a very small spot so therefore,that is why I state it is much more important for target shooters than hunters.


Rick,have you ever checked your 3rd axis to see if it is square with the arrow?

I never realized how important it was untill I was told about it by a world class tuner and then tried it and was amazed the difference it made.Of course mine was set square with the bar and the bar wasn't parrallel with the arrow.Not out much but enough to make a difference.

The EZE EYE laser would probably work well for checking to see if the vbar and arrow are parrallel.Just lay it on the bar and run it down the arrow.

RE: importance of properly set 3rd axis
 

I set mine on the medicine stone which sets with the sight mounted to the bow and in relation to the string at static. I then have my string checked using a full draw tool and spot hogg laser so that everything is set with the path of the string rather than the shaft. Since I am shooting a shoot through system, path of the string is true and straight as I have seen using the laser and full draw tool...........so I personally believe this is a better way than checking the sight bar as compared to the arrow at a static point. Seems to work for me......