Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
12-30-2002, 08:00 AM
#1
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Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
I have a question that I am hoping some of you can answer for me.
It is almost January now, and as such, I do a lot of tinkering. For next season, I am planning on using two different types of setups on my bow. The first is using a 190 grain magnus and the second is using a 120 grain dead head. I don't expect to have the same tune on my bow to be exactly the same for both setups, but I do expect to have them both shooting as close to the center shot of my bow as possible.
I have used the magnus type setup before so there is no problem there. I have a 33" draw, use 33" arrows and have a 70 pound compound. I use 2613 XX78 arrows for this, and can get bullet wholes at the center shot of my bow. Now I am experimenting with different arrows and have found 2317 to work pretty well for the 120 grain heads. I have literally set up hundreds of bows, so set up and paper tuning is nothing new to me at all.
But I'm a littly stumped on something that I found while setting up this year. By accident I left my stabilizer off the bow on a session. And noticed some pretty weird results.
What I noticed is that without the stabilizer the arrow flight was less sensitive to spine. What I mean is that I could use a variety of arrow sizes with a variety of tip weights, and still get a decent paper tune.
When I put the stabilizer back on, it was much more sensitive to the arrow size and tip weight. I use a 10 oz nine inch doinker type stabilizer.
I always figured (but never tested) that the opposite would be true. Can anyone explain this (the stabilzer dilema)? Thanks.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 12/30/2002 09:02:57
It is almost January now, and as such, I do a lot of tinkering. For next season, I am planning on using two different types of setups on my bow. The first is using a 190 grain magnus and the second is using a 120 grain dead head. I don't expect to have the same tune on my bow to be exactly the same for both setups, but I do expect to have them both shooting as close to the center shot of my bow as possible.
I have used the magnus type setup before so there is no problem there. I have a 33" draw, use 33" arrows and have a 70 pound compound. I use 2613 XX78 arrows for this, and can get bullet wholes at the center shot of my bow. Now I am experimenting with different arrows and have found 2317 to work pretty well for the 120 grain heads. I have literally set up hundreds of bows, so set up and paper tuning is nothing new to me at all.
But I'm a littly stumped on something that I found while setting up this year. By accident I left my stabilizer off the bow on a session. And noticed some pretty weird results.
What I noticed is that without the stabilizer the arrow flight was less sensitive to spine. What I mean is that I could use a variety of arrow sizes with a variety of tip weights, and still get a decent paper tune.
When I put the stabilizer back on, it was much more sensitive to the arrow size and tip weight. I use a 10 oz nine inch doinker type stabilizer.
I always figured (but never tested) that the opposite would be true. Can anyone explain this (the stabilzer dilema)? Thanks.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 12/30/2002 09:02:57
12-30-2002, 07:39 PM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
RE: Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
Bobco, I can't see how a stab. would effect spine? Torque maybe? Did you try changing to a shorter stab. and see the results? I know shooting with and wihout a stab. will change my impact point but don't think it had anyrhing to do with spine. I'm courius to see more replies.JERRY
12-30-2002, 08:26 PM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vermilion Ohio
Posts: 183
RE: Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
spine is spine is spine is spine...LOL
an arrow isn't gonna get more or less stiff because of a stabalizer or the absence there of. the only thing the i can think of that would effect an arrow w/or w/o a stabalizer is possibly the energy transfer from the string to the shaft. and this would be because the torque created from a shot w/o a stabalizer would cause the top of you bow to fall towards you...so common sense tells me that more energy would be transfered from the string to the "bottom" half of the arrow. vs even transfer with the presence of a stabalizer. just MHO...im sure there's a mathematical formula out there to prove or disprove what i proposed. anyone find it let me know. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
an arrow isn't gonna get more or less stiff because of a stabalizer or the absence there of. the only thing the i can think of that would effect an arrow w/or w/o a stabalizer is possibly the energy transfer from the string to the shaft. and this would be because the torque created from a shot w/o a stabalizer would cause the top of you bow to fall towards you...so common sense tells me that more energy would be transfered from the string to the "bottom" half of the arrow. vs even transfer with the presence of a stabalizer. just MHO...im sure there's a mathematical formula out there to prove or disprove what i proposed. anyone find it let me know. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
12-31-2002, 08:42 AM
#4
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RE: Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
Sure nodose, I understand that spine is spine, and BTW thanks for the laughs at my question. The actual arrow spine will not change. I didn't mean to inply that the arrow spine changed. Please reread from my first post.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What I noticed is that without the stabilizer the arrow flight was less sensitive to spine. What I mean is that I could use a variety of arrow sizes with a variety of tip weights, and still get a decent paper tune (with the stabilizer off)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
However, the energy transfer to the arrow must be changing slightly with the use of the stabilizer on as compared to not having a stabilzer on.
Jerry, I am actually thinking what you are. Maybe my stabilizer is a little heavy for the setup. However, I have heard of others having better results with a heavier (more than mine) stabilizer as compared to a lighter one.
But, I still can't understand why the arrow flight of a variety of different spined arrows would be less sensitive to tuning without the stabilizer than with it.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What I noticed is that without the stabilizer the arrow flight was less sensitive to spine. What I mean is that I could use a variety of arrow sizes with a variety of tip weights, and still get a decent paper tune (with the stabilizer off)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
However, the energy transfer to the arrow must be changing slightly with the use of the stabilizer on as compared to not having a stabilzer on.
Jerry, I am actually thinking what you are. Maybe my stabilizer is a little heavy for the setup. However, I have heard of others having better results with a heavier (more than mine) stabilizer as compared to a lighter one.
But, I still can't understand why the arrow flight of a variety of different spined arrows would be less sensitive to tuning without the stabilizer than with it.
12-31-2002, 09:06 AM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Manitowoc WI USA
Posts: 79
RE: Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
I am thinking it has something to do with the bows balance and how adding the stabaliser changes the way you hold the bow through the shot sequence. Do you have some sort of sling and shoot completely open grip, or do you just hold the bow litely?
Trying to hold the bow lightly is a tricky venture when you add weight because no-one wants to launch a $700+ chunck of aluminum down the range because we let go!
Here is a really easy way to check if it is a grip issue. White nuckle the thing and re-run your test. You should see a more consistent tear with and without the stabaliser. I realize that you can't tune a bow this way, but it will show that a inconsistent grip can cause the phenominon that you have observed.
Happy Shooting!
>>>------Tony Virnoche------>>>
>>>---The Archery Program--->>>
Trying to hold the bow lightly is a tricky venture when you add weight because no-one wants to launch a $700+ chunck of aluminum down the range because we let go!
Here is a really easy way to check if it is a grip issue. White nuckle the thing and re-run your test. You should see a more consistent tear with and without the stabaliser. I realize that you can't tune a bow this way, but it will show that a inconsistent grip can cause the phenominon that you have observed.
Happy Shooting!
>>>------Tony Virnoche------>>>
>>>---The Archery Program--->>>
12-31-2002, 09:25 AM
#6
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RE: Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
Thanks Tony, actually you must have read my mind cause I was just about to e-mail you.
Actually, I am compound shooter with roots in traditional. Years ago, I tried a wrist strap on my compound, but hated it. It was foreign to me and I actually caught myself torquing the bow with it on.
I have extremely long fingers with a large hand (not a huge hand). When I hold the bow I can actually have my fingers wrapped around the back of the bow without actually puttin gripping pressure on it at all. I have had bows fall out of my hand on occassion, but not often.
But I understand what you are saying I think; that when I have the added weight of the stabilizer on the bow, maybe there is a chance of me putting a bit more pressure in the grip without me even consciously knowing it through the shot sequence. That would make sense.
So really, in actuality, there shouldn't be a difference in the mechanical sequence of the shot whether the stailizer is on or off, correct? It would have to be more of a human effect.
Actually, I am compound shooter with roots in traditional. Years ago, I tried a wrist strap on my compound, but hated it. It was foreign to me and I actually caught myself torquing the bow with it on.
I have extremely long fingers with a large hand (not a huge hand). When I hold the bow I can actually have my fingers wrapped around the back of the bow without actually puttin gripping pressure on it at all. I have had bows fall out of my hand on occassion, but not often.
But I understand what you are saying I think; that when I have the added weight of the stabilizer on the bow, maybe there is a chance of me putting a bit more pressure in the grip without me even consciously knowing it through the shot sequence. That would make sense.
So really, in actuality, there shouldn't be a difference in the mechanical sequence of the shot whether the stailizer is on or off, correct? It would have to be more of a human effect.
12-31-2002, 09:42 AM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Manitowoc WI USA
Posts: 79
RE: Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
Bobco-
I agree that it is a sub-conscious thing we do. What sucks is that it is SOOO hard to diagnose because it always boils down to one of those.."I can't be torquing the riser debates, because I know what I am doing!"
I have an issue of my own right now that is driving ME nuts! Got a UltraTec Cam &1/2 and I am having a doozy of a time finding the friggin center shot. I have been all the way from 1/2 to 1.25" from the riser. If I set the center with a gage it shoots HORRIBLE. All previous bows always shot really well this way! Including Hoyts, Mathews PSE....you get the picture.
I have found a good spot NOW but never in my life have I had this much trouble doing it! Can you believe I even questioned my own programs ability to match arrows! Of course it wasn't the case, but it had me thinking!
Anyway.....white knuckle it and re-run your test and I reccon you will have your answer!
Happy Shooting!
>>>------Tony Virnoche------>>>
>>>---The Archery Program--->>>
I agree that it is a sub-conscious thing we do. What sucks is that it is SOOO hard to diagnose because it always boils down to one of those.."I can't be torquing the riser debates, because I know what I am doing!"
I have an issue of my own right now that is driving ME nuts! Got a UltraTec Cam &1/2 and I am having a doozy of a time finding the friggin center shot. I have been all the way from 1/2 to 1.25" from the riser. If I set the center with a gage it shoots HORRIBLE. All previous bows always shot really well this way! Including Hoyts, Mathews PSE....you get the picture.
I have found a good spot NOW but never in my life have I had this much trouble doing it! Can you believe I even questioned my own programs ability to match arrows! Of course it wasn't the case, but it had me thinking!
Anyway.....white knuckle it and re-run your test and I reccon you will have your answer!
Happy Shooting!
>>>------Tony Virnoche------>>>
>>>---The Archery Program--->>>
12-31-2002, 07:13 PM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jacksonville North Carolina USA
Posts: 26
RE: Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
Okay guys, hope I can help! When I first started w/compound, nobody told me anything, I had to learn from all of you and what ever I could find about compounds! However I am hard-headed, and when I read/heard about stabilizers for balance, I was all against it. (I shoot alot of old Indian bows and all) so alot of the gizmoes I dont care for.
Point being is that my bow is an old Bear, 58# peak w/50% letoff, Cobra arrow rest front sight and release. Nothing else. And I like you did Bobco, can actually use different arrow sizes and tip weights and still be extremally acuarte. Now, I can't be extremly wild with the differences, but I an do it. Hopefully this helps for you all, considering I never used a stab.
Point being is that my bow is an old Bear, 58# peak w/50% letoff, Cobra arrow rest front sight and release. Nothing else. And I like you did Bobco, can actually use different arrow sizes and tip weights and still be extremally acuarte. Now, I can't be extremly wild with the differences, but I an do it. Hopefully this helps for you all, considering I never used a stab.
01-06-2003, 08:01 AM
#10
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RE: Arrow Flight - Question for Techies
TheArcheryProgram,
I have tried what you have recommended and it worked perfectly. I made a reall conscious effect to make sure that my grips were consistant.
I know that you have mentioned before, about how some bows shoot less then perfectly at the center shoot. I also have had this delema. Right now I am shooting my Parker Feather Mag II 33" draw 70 pounds with 2613XX78 and a 175 grain field tip, and a 2317 XX78 125 grain field tip, and both are shooting perfectly at 7/8 inch from the riser. The 2317's nock is 1/8 above 90 degrees, and the 2613 is 5/16 above 90 degrees. My local pro shop (doesn't handle Parker) constintly tells me that the rest should be moved to the right (to bring it to center shot), but the sweet spot through paper is where I am at slightly left of center. Could you explain this?
I have tried what you have recommended and it worked perfectly. I made a reall conscious effect to make sure that my grips were consistant.
I know that you have mentioned before, about how some bows shoot less then perfectly at the center shoot. I also have had this delema. Right now I am shooting my Parker Feather Mag II 33" draw 70 pounds with 2613XX78 and a 175 grain field tip, and a 2317 XX78 125 grain field tip, and both are shooting perfectly at 7/8 inch from the riser. The 2317's nock is 1/8 above 90 degrees, and the 2613 is 5/16 above 90 degrees. My local pro shop (doesn't handle Parker) constintly tells me that the rest should be moved to the right (to bring it to center shot), but the sweet spot through paper is where I am at slightly left of center. Could you explain this?