Tuning process
 

Now that hunting season is just about over for me.(one more week of winter bow in Pa.) I'll be shooting indoor and 3-D. I didn't have the luxery of having two bows this year(for various COLLAGE&KIDS reasons)so I'll be changing over to my target set-up. I've had the same tuning process for the last 5-6 years now with good results. I think. Do any of you Teckie see a falt or a better way to tune my bows.
Here's my process
1) After setting my rest,site and nocking point I eye balling everything and set my timing (Duel cam)
2)I shoot in a 20 yd. pin. and do a powder check for clearence.
3) I start bare shaft tuning for spine and nocking point and make necessary adjustments. I don't put much wt. in paper tuning so that's not part of my process any longer.
4) I then shoot in a 40 yd. pin and adjust my site for windage.
5) At this point I start vertical and horizonal line shooting at 40 yds. and make micro adjustments to my center shot and nocking point.
6) This is when I shoot in my other pins. A 30 and 50 yd. Most 3-D cources I shoot don't have a 60 or longer target.
6) My final step will be to check my bare shaft out to 30 yds and if I'm shooting the same groups with fletched and b/s at that distance I'm good to go. I use 40 yds as my farthest distance in my tuning process becaues I can shoot my tightest groups with more consistancy then 50-60.

This process has been working for me but I'm always looking for improvement. The only other tuning I think I could do (and sometimes I do)would be long distance group tuning. Any suggestion are welcome. JERRY

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RE: Tuning process
 

Thanks J. I'm so compulsive and tinker almost to a fault. A friend of mine gave me a pocket rachet set for Christmas as a joke. I laughed cause I got him doing the same thing. JERRY

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Jerry-

I can see you are meticulous, and that is good!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> However, you are getting incorrect info from somewhere IMHO.

If a bare shaft flies the same as a fletched shaft and impacts the same point at a given distance, it is not tuned correctly.

Why?

Because a bare shaft is not spined the same as a shaft that has the additional weight and drag of vanes or feather fletching of varying degrees of offset and helical, and thus should NOT fly exactly the same. If they do, then they are incorrectly tuned to get that result. Simple as that. If you throw both arrows out of a Hooter Shooter, they will impact differently if you tune to bare shafts impacting the same hole.(and then throw a fletched arrow out of the same setup) The fletched arrow will not shoot into the same hole like the bare shaft did unless re-tuned. If you try to get a &quot;happy medium&quot; with both, then that is what you get, not a &quot;pure tune&quot; for the fletched shafts, which is what you are striving for. You want that fletched puppy to go into the same hole as the last one every shot, and it won't if you are trying to get both fletched and bare shafts tuned at once because they have different flight characteristics due to spine, weight, and drag.

So, the best thing in this scenario is to do exactly what you have done for the most part, but eliminate the bare shaft tuning unless you plan to shoot them from your completed setup afterwards! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Tuning process
 

MAN! Pinwheel, I've been hitting fast balls out of the park and now you throw me a curve? I've had such good luck with B/S tuning now to find out it's flawed, will bring on distructive behavor for me. We've had this discusion in an indirect way before. So don't leave me now brother.
I'm not going to disagree with you yet because I really respect your knowledge and experience on this subject. This process has worked for me almost flawlessly. So it's going to be hard for me to change because of that. If you can get me there or better I'm all ears. This is why I posted this question. You know I got the B/S tuning from Easton's tuning guide. Am I interpreting it wrong? I mainly use B/S for nocking point and spine. Which I think is the most important part of arrow flight. So if I disreguard the B/S how do I tune for these now? Since I've adapted to B/S tuning I have disregarded Paper tuning altogether. I rely on long distance vertical & horizonal tuning for fine tuning nocking point and center shot. I still won't have a spine technique. See what you've done? LOL JERRY

RE: Tuning process
 

pinwheel is absolutely correct. anything added to your arrow will and should make it fly differently than a bare shaft, and if it doesn't then something isn't right. ive seen guys that took this to such an extreme that they weighed the amount of glue they use to fletch their arrows. which falls back to my previous statement, that anything added to an arrow will and should make it fly differently than a bare shaft. i was wondering why you don't paper tune anymore? i see you powder test for clearance but how do you set your centershot and knocking point w/o shooting through paper? shooting 40 yds to set centershot and knocking point seems to me to be kind of a prolonged and ultimately inaccurate way to do this. you can set a c/s and k/p shooting through paper from about 10 ft in about 10 to 15 mins...then move back to 20 yds and 40 yds shoot through paper again and see what you have. using the human eye at 40 yds to check arrow flight seems pretty flawed. although you'll probably have no problem seeing that your arrows aren't flying correctly, do you then have to guess at what to adjust and what direction...etc..etc? just my opinion, but ive never had a problem obtaining perfect arrow flight by shooting through paper. it is also my opinion that checking arrow spline is overkill....there are so many charts out there that are very reliable for matching draw weight, draw length, arrow wieght, and arrow length that you're wasting your time unless you just like wasting your time...LOL <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>











Edited by - nodose on 12/30/2002 20:45:00

RE: Tuning process
 

I agree with Pinwheel 100%
Life is too short to waste your time bare shaft tuning.
You're not going to hunt or shoot targets with bare shafts!
Big waste of time that could be better spent tuning the correct way with a fully fletched arrow. JMO.


Sag.

RE: Tuning process
 

I agree with pinwheel, and am glad to hear him say it. I have mentioned it a few times, and people don't seem to believe me. Maybe him they will. I have played with bare shaft tuning, and it was really just a night mare, only to have my arrows group worse any way.

Actually the Easton tuning guide only suggests it for finger shooters, It does not give consistant results with release aids because the arrow flexes differently.

I do pretty much the same as the rest of you, I just group tune at different distances. I do think paper tuning is a good place to start sometimes, especially with a new bow set up. It will tell you if something is way off to start with. Like spine or rest contact. But if it is a bow I am comfortable with and set up before, usually my intitial settings are close enough I don't have to bother. Like if I am just changing a rest or something.

Good luck,
Paul

RE: Tuning process
 

Boy did I open up a can of worms. Nodose, the reasons I got away from paper tuning is because I was getting such good results from B/S tuning. I use vertical & horizonal tuning for my fine tuning C/S & N/P. Shooting at a 10in. long electrical tape or the edge of a paper target in a horizonal position making adjustments to my nock untill I achieve the straightest line across the tape. I do the same thing for center shot but the tape is in a vertical position. I also make my final center shot adjustments alternating shots between 20 and 40 yds. Sometimes out to 50 or 60 but I'm not as consistant at that range as I'm at 40.
I think spine is the biggest problem most guys have with broadheads. Over the years if my BH's where off it was because of spine. I also found my B/S flew almost the same as my BH. I don't know why that is but if I think I'm tuned and shoot a BH and i'm off most of the time my B/S is hitting with my BH's in relationship to my fletched arrows. So if I make an adjustment for my B/S and then shoot a BH they all hit the same group. Hope I explained that right. Thanks for the inbut Nodose. JERRY

RE: Tuning process
 

OK! So your all saying paper tuning is a good start and I will agree(though I've had better results with B/S tuning) but where do I go for fine a tune? JERRY

RE: Tuning process
 

okydoke...here goes.
you can only get an arrow to fly so perfect and you're done w/that aspect of tuning. if you need to be finer tuned than a perfectly flying arrow then you can do a number of things.
first off you can tiller tune your limbs so that the bow sits in your hand more comfortably. it also gives you a bit more flexibility in controling your weight (energy) transfer from the string to the shaft. when you do this it will change your knocking point.
second you can use offseting stabalizers (v'bars) to cut down on side torque.
if you're setting up a hunting bow i would recommend taking the quiver off of your bow and hooking it on your treestand once in your stand. this will also reduce side torque.
those 2 top suggestions are used mostly for target setups and i would say that they would be overkill for a hunting setup

RE: Tuning process
 

Jerry, I have to go along with your tuning process almost completly as this is pretty much what I have settled into. I do use paper tuning to get an initial setup though but if your fletches haven't straightened out your arrow in 20 - 30 yards you've got more troubles than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I think part of the disagreement may come from folks that are more used to tuning for long range target shooting (80-90 yds.)versus tuning for a hunting setup. I am no expert and certainly not a great shot, but I have found that by using a system very close to yours I wind up with a very forgiving setup that is more tolerant of form imperfections that are the norm rather than the exception in hunting situations especially from a treestand in awkward shooting positions. By tuning my bow this way I find that I can group to my ability (10 ring on a McKinsey (sp?) 3D target) out to 40yds. with an assortment of arrows including fletched field points, 3 different brands and styles of fixed broadheads and bare shaft all shot one after the other at random. I'll admit I usually don't shoot the bare shafts much past 30yds. though. I know this ain't great accuracy but it gives me confidence in those less than perfect situations. Maybe not worth 2 cents but for whatever it is worth, thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

RE: Tuning process
 

OK, this may take awhile, but I'll do my best here. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

The tuning process isn't all that hard to figure out if you start with the basics:

1) Shaft and vane selection
2) paper tuning
3) group tuning
4) &quot;Supertuning&quot; (what I call creep tuning)

Over the years many arrow companies have devised charts and computer programs to help you quickly find the spine range that is best suited to individual applications.(AA and TAP are both excellent programs, and the Easton charts are very close across the board) Due to this, they are good reference points for most setups. The guys that normally go away from these charts or programs are those looking for a lighter weight arrow to compete in 3D, or those who are simply rebellious to begin with! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> It's all handled for you, let them do the work, IMHO.


All arrows paradox (bend) when they leave the bow, and as stated above in my first post, will bend differently due to differentials in their configurations and/or power source. To gain the best groupings and accuracy, this paradox must be negated as quickly as possible. Those who tune to a bullet hole through paper at 6 or 9' produce a &quot;knuckleball effect&quot; on the arrow and it will take longer for it to paradox correctly, thus IMHO is not the best choice for supreme accuracy at all distances. What top shooters and techs have found over the years is that an 11:00 tail-high left tear approx 1/4&quot;-1/2&quot; (right handed shooter with release) at 6-9' will produce a faster and more repeatable paradox on the arrow coming out of the bow, thus the arrow is more accurate. My findings have coincided with this theory, and I've been tuning to this tear with all of my setups for years, as it gives the arrow &quot;purpose&quot;.

Most top archers go directly to group tuning and Supertuning after choosing a correctly-spined arrow and &quot;roughing it in&quot;, and through this process have come to the tear mentioned above after correctly tuning for best groups at all yardages and Supertuning. Most tune out to at least 40 yds, I personally go to 60, even on my hunting setups. Small adjustments are all that is needed usually, either on the nocking point or rest, or in some instances timing of the cams. (supertuning) It is admittedly tougher to get consistent groupings at longer distances unless you use a machine, but by doing it yourself, you implement the individual &quot;forgiveness factor&quot; and know what you are capable of. (This is big also when it comes to getting your individual tune) I start at 20, tune for groups, then check my Supertuning.(twin cam only, sorry, they are more infinitely tunable) Then 40yd groups, then 60yd groups. Slight adjustments in tiller can also help you hold better. Sometimes all it takes is a 1/4 turn to bring everything in.

This process cannot be rushed, and is up to each individual to determine how accurate they want to be and how tight they wish to get their groups. I personally have both target bows and hunting bows, and I recommend tuning to each specific setup, not trying to run everything together when it comes to field tips/broadheads. Like the bare shaft and fletched shaft differential, shooting fixed blade broadheads and field points are two different animals also, and due to different lengths of ferrule/drag on blades, etc, have different aerodynamics and will fly differently. (and should!) If you tune both together to get a &quot;happy medium&quot;, then that is what you get, and you cannot get the utmost out of either setup without directly tuning to that individual configuration. All depends on what you want out of it, and how accurate you feel you should be for either the tournaments you participate in, or for the game you seek. Personally, it's a no-brainer for me, and I work very hard to make sure my setups are as precise as I can get them. It gives me ultimate confidence in my equipment knowing I've done all I can do, and gives me one less thing to worry about when the 10 pt is standing out in front of my stand at 30 yds, or I'm taking aim at a 11 ring on a McKensie Turkey at 48.

As mentioned by Jerry above, he states that he now has no way to gain a spine check if he eliminates bare shafting-- he shouldn't need to check however if he stays within the limits of the charts/programs and reads them correctly, and the groups at distance will readily tell the tale irregardless. Spine can usually be readily controlled by a crank or two on the limbs, also. I find in some instances I may need to crank a pound or two one way or the other for perfect flight, which is really not a biggie.(I tune my bow to the arrows, not the arrows to the bow!) And, once you get used to your bow/bows/setups over time, you can readily determine which shaft/point combination will fly well out of that bow at your preferred drawlength and poundage. Most bows have a decent &quot;comfort range&quot; within which one can choose a number of different shaft/point combinations that will readily tune, but they should all be tuned individually IMO. As mentioned, seeing as the bare shafts do not have the same flight characteristics as the fletched shafts to begin with, one should not try to get them to fly the same, because they are thus taking away from the correct and proper tune of the fletched shaft that they will be using for the actual application.

Whew! Did that make any sense to anyone? I hope so! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Happy New Year!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Pinwheel 12

RE: Tuning process
 

A couple questions here does nocking point and cener shot change when shooting broadheads compared to feild points or is it that they tune to the same setting but hit in diferant spots . I've noticed this myself shooting 4 spots 2 with feild points 2 with broadheads the feild points would be dead center and the broadheads would be high and right but in the same hole every time then when you try to get the two groups to match you run into problems , eradic flight .

We all have different oppinions , if we did'nt the world would be a BORING place

RE: Tuning process
 

OK, I get the drift. Apples to apples. As much as I'd like to put up an argument for my B/S I recognize some good techie's with more expertise then myself. I'm going to follow your suggestions and tune without it. I will how ever make comparisions to my old way cause I'm such a hard head. Being my hunting is just about over I'll be tuning for target and 3-D. I'll worry about BH's come Sept. I'm only shooting one bow(Merlin Max)the last couple years(unless pinwheel has a good price on a used Lite Storm Duel cam) I've been shooting the same equip. for target,3-D and hunting. I'll be setting up and droping my poundage and shooting a lighter arrow w/a lighter tip and 1.5 feathers. Thanks guys I appreciate all your imput. TO BE CONTINUED. JERRY

RE: Tuning process
 

Jerry, you quit too easy. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> This is just starting to get really good. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Tuning process
 

ijimmy--

Nocking point and centershot are critical of spine, FOC, and any variations within configurations, so yes, I would say they would in fact tune slightly different and have slight nocking point and centershot differentials. I always tune each setup individually and have for years now, so I cannot say how much the differential is. How much depends upon how different each configuration is. However, some may simply have a different impact point as you stated, again, different configurations tune differently with different peoples' styles of shooting, along with any differentials in weight, drag, etc, which changes spine. One person can induce more torque than another with varying grips and form, that is why you sometimes see one person take a bow and shoot a perfect hole, and another take that same bow and throw a 2&quot; tear. This does get confusing, but I think everyone is getting onto the same page here.

Jerry-

You no doubt have a good system for you in which you feel comfortable. If this gives you the results you are looking for, by all means continue onward!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I do feel as tho you will gain better groupings, and especially so at distance if you utilize the &quot;apples to apples&quot; (as you call it) method as opposed to the &quot;comparason method&quot;, but that decision is up to you, no one is twisting your arm! (at least not too bad. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

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LOL,Hey 8PT This is long but over. I opened up a can of worms and I'll see it through. I respect the people who posted on this thread and I'll follow there suggestion. BBBUUUTTT!!! I'll do my comparisons and match my results. I was taught B/S tuning from a guy who is an engineer and worked for Easton and set-up the arrow chart. He also was involved with the ACC's. This guy at 76 yrs.old still shoots and teachs and I love to sit with him and chat. He swears by the B/S. So there is different schools and theories so I guess it's what works for you. I can't argue my case without doing the work. I hope this thread does get interesting and pull more interest from other expertise who visit this site. I wish I had the experience to debate the B/S side but I don't so I'll wait for more results. Thanks.JERRY

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RE: Tuning process
 

J, Thanks. I am happy with my results but I'm always looking to improve. If I can learn something to improve my shooting I'm all ears. I've pick=up alot from some of the people here and if I'm smart I'll continue to do so. I don't know any other archery site with as much info for the taking. JERRY

RE: Tuning process
 

I have a question about broadhead tuning. I seem to have a problem with it every year. Do I need to bring the field point and broadhead groups together or adjust the sights if the BH's shoot good? Any help on this subject would be appreciated. Thanks

Billy Davis

RE: Tuning process
 

just adjust the sights if you're BH's are flying good. most field points don't hit the same place on a target as a BH unless you're using a mechanical head similar to the profile of a field point.

RE: Tuning process
 

Billy, I know if I got my B/S to group with my Fletched arrows then my BH's (Muzzy 90's) would group with my fletched arrows with very little or no tweaking. As you can see from this thread that there is different approaches to tuning. What Pinwheel and others have stated all arrow set-up's have different flight characteristic's and need to be tuned seperatly. The jury is still out on this for me cause I've not tested there process yet and have seen and have been able to tune using B/S ,fletch and BH's in combination with each other. I'm looking to see what other responces I get with this thread and if any one else has used my process with any success. JERRY

RE: Tuning process
 

I will throw in my .0003 cents since I have also used the b/s method in my tunning for about 10 years. My setups are 100% hunting setups, so to achieve long distance or supper tight field point accuracy there may be a better way.

I agree with Jerry/Pa, in that if my b/s hit with my fletched shafts at 25 yds, my broadheads will be right on or very, very close.

I have also found b/s paper tunning to be a good tool. I set up for bullet holes with b/s and I am always very close to a great b/h tune.

Another great thing about bare shaft shooting is that it is a great tool to check form -(if you are off at all, it WILL show)

All my 5 arrow pratice groups include a b/s. This has been a great help for me in keeping my form in check.

You would be amazed at how many people I have met who stated there bow and form were right on. Then I convince them to strip down one arrow and shoot it - many do not even hit the target with it<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

I agree with Pinwheel, in that they should not hit the same hole, but add some cresting tape to the b/s to mimic fletching weight and I believe they will fly very, very close at hunting distances. Infact I know so.

My final step is to b/h group tune out to about 50 yds. Usually when I am done I can group my b/s b/h and f/p in the same 2 inch circle at 30 yds.

Good luck Jerry and thanks Pin

RE: Tuning process
 

Jerry,

Don't think that you're alone. For my target field shooting I do things like PW12 describes. In that case I'm concerned about my best groups out to 80yds and I'm not worried about putting on a broadhead.

But for my hunting setup, I do some bareshafting with the approximate FOC of fletched shafts. I do this by fletching the shaft, and then trimming the top part of the vanes to leave the base of the vane and the glue on the shaft. And then gluing a small BB on the end of the nock before inserting in the shaft will get very close results as far as matching FOC of the fletched shafts. Or I have done a light dip-coat of paint for my bareshaft before fletching to get the FOC close. With some tinkering you can get a b/s very close to final weight and FOC of a fletched shaft.

My b/s trials are mostly for left/right considerations, and I'm not too worried about up/down as long as it's reasonable. The drag portion of the fletching will account for some of the up/down differences compared to fletched shafts. I know guys say it's a waste of time, and I really respect their opinions, but I've had too much success doing things this way. With the approximate same FOC bareshaft, I can see tiny spine differences that I wouldn't have been able to detect very well with fletched shafts. Example: I fletched up my hunting arrows along with the FOC bareshaft. I wasn't quite sure if the shafts were spined correctly for the bow when I went to the range. I adjusted for the best grouping of fletched shafts and then threw the b/s out to the bale and it was off quite a bit. The only thing I did then was adjust the bow poundage and kept everything else constant. With each turn of the limb bolts I'd shoot a group with the bareshaft and I could see the b/s walking across the target as the poundage changed. The small arrow spine reactions were apparent when changing the poundage of the bow.

An approximate FOC b/s can help to let me know how much &quot;work&quot; my fletching is doing to correct arrow flight. Field points let you get away with murder as far as not planing the arrow off in the wrong direction, but fixed blade broadheads are very telling.

When I can get my FOC b/s and my fletched shafts hitting very close from 10 to 40yds, it seems like a breeze to put on fixed blade broadheads and requires very little adjustment. And it isn't always easy and requires a lot of range time and tinkering- sometimes I need to change tip weights, or cut some length off my shafts (I purposely start with my shafts 1&quot; long just for this case). I have yet to find a good arrow stretcher. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> A note of caution: This should NOT be done with thin-walled aluminums!!

I think the results are worth the effort FOR ME- I'm not saying everyone should do it, and I have full respect for those that say it's a waste of time.

Like others have said, do what you need to do to make yourself satisfied!

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Jerry, I would have thought there would have been more variations of tuning processes posted by now. As I posted before my system is very close to yours except that I do paper test more to begin with. I also reread your initial post and noticed you are using a dual cam bow. Mine is a single cam and it works for me. I put on new string and cable a couple of weeks ago and have been shooting them in. Yesterday I switched over to my 3D arrow setup and when I used this method to check everything out (with the exception of broadheads) I was almost disapointed at how quick everything fell into place since I like to tinker so much. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> When I say 3D setup I probably shouldn't because it is basicly still a hunting arrow (local club shoots in hunter class for fun & practice). For hunting I use goldtip XT5575 29&quot; with 4&quot; rt. helical vanes and 125gr. fixed broadheads/field points. For 3D it is the same shaft with 3&quot; rt.helical feathers and 75gr. field tips. These are at 60lb. draw weight and 29&quot; draw. My speed goes from 257fps/410 gr. arrow to 278 fps/348 gr. arrow. About all I had to do was a slight nock point adjustment from the string/cable settling and reset sight pins. Sometimes I would rather be luck than good. :):)

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My 2002 cybertec should be here monday. I could use some help with a step by step tuning process. It will be used for hunting only. I had planned on starting with paper tunging, then bareshaft(maybe), and then short or long distance line tuning. Does this sound fine. There has already been a lot of good information on this thread. Thanks

Bill Davis

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AR, I have a friend of mine who is a pretty good shooter that just can't shoot a B/S. I think it's his grip but he's consistant with it and Shoots 270-280's in 3-D. He dosen't use the B/S method of tuning and uses a method simular to the one Pinwheel and others have mentioned. Obvious does quit well.

Frogie, You discribed the walking method just as I use it. That's why I've used it for so long. What I think is, you can use the B/S method as a start and then concentrate your tuning to BH's for hunting or fletched arrows for target. Have the best of both worlds. At least thats what I'll do after hunting.

8 PT, The B/S method can be fast can't it? Your set-up is very simular to mine. Except My draw is 27&quot;. I play with my poundage per arrow. 58to 65 lbs. I Usually had two bow set-up but the last couple years my kids in collage is killing me. That will change next year and I'll be back to two bows. For now the only thing I change is arrows. Everything on the bows stays the same and I shoot in the bowhunter class. Which I like anyhow. I shoot an ICS hunter for hunting w/4&quot; feathers and a 90 Muzzy. A Carbon Express 3-D select w/1.5&quot; feathers and 75 gr.tip for 3-D. I can make the change over pretty easily.

Billy, A great place to start is with Easton's Tuning Guide. You can download it from there web site. It has a lot of good info. JERRY