PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
01-16-2002, 03:38 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: waterord michigan USA
Posts: 46
PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
hello PABowhntr, i'm new to the forums, i've seen you on a few of them and noted you have a new havoc-tec and seem very knowledgable. i'm interested in purchasing one this year, i know i want the xt2000 limbs but don't know if i want the versa cam or excel cam. what did you go with and why? someone else on one of the forums is in the same situation as me, he shot a havoc-tec/xt2000/versa cam at his dealer and said he experienced a weird oscillation? in the lower limb with that combination and decided to wait to buy it. have you experienced this at all? when and if i buy one it will be 60# max limbs with 27" draw length.
Also, i was wondering if you've had any good or bad experiece with 2000-2001 browning eclipse SL? i have an oppurtunity to pick a new one up at a great price since they've been discontinued.
Also, i was wondering if you've had any good or bad experiece with 2000-2001 browning eclipse SL? i have an oppurtunity to pick a new one up at a great price since they've been discontinued.
01-16-2002, 06:05 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
Chad,
I went with the Versacam over the Excel cam for several reasons.
First off, I had owned both a Havoc with the Saber cam and a Havoc with the Versacam the previous year so I was familiar with both cams...extensively. Both styles have their merits.....the Excel cam is a very smooth drawing cam similar to the Mathews Straightline Maxcam series. This cam has a gradual climb up to its peak weight during the draw cycle and just as gradual of a transition from that peak weight down into the bow's valley and subsequent back wall.
The Versacam is relatively smooth, but not as smooth to draw as the Excel cam. It comes up to its peak weight a little quicker and drops off more quickly into the valley.....with an average setup. The force draw curve of the Versacam can be adjusted more...but I am getting ahead of myself.
My problem with the Excel cam and other cams like it had to do directly with my form. When I shot the Saber cam equipped bow I saw a signficant decrease in accuracy...reportedly because I was probably creeping forward slightly during the shot sequence. There wasn't enough of sharp contrast between the back wall, valley and the overall transition to peak weight for me to maintain the same exact draw during each shot....which, subsequently, led to poor accuracy.
The Versacam, on the other hand, can be set to allow for a more noticeable and drastic transition between the back wall, valley, and transition to peak weight. I was looking for something that didn't wrench my arm out of its socket and yet was abrupt enough for me to notice if I was creeping forward...even slightly.
Enter, the Versacam. Because of its ability to adjust both the draw length and percentage of letoff via the inner cam draw length adjustment module and draw stop peg the cam can basically be set to whatever style of force-draw curve you want: Really long valley, long valley, medium valley, short valley, extra short valley, etc....
The Excel cam allows you to adjust percentage of letoff via a draw stop peg but in doing so you are also shortening the draw length of the bow at the same time. You cannot do one without affecting the other. So, if you order the bow with a "28 inch" draw length and you want the bow to be set at 65% letoff then your draw length will actually be shorter than 28 inches since the bow comes shipped at the draw length you requested and either 70 or 75% letoff. For each hole that you adjust the draw stop peg you lower the percentage of letoff by 5% but you also shorten draw length by 1/3 of an inch.
As for your buddy's experience with an oscillation near the bottom cam. I would check to make sure that the inner cam draw length module's lock down screws and the draw stop peg was tightened down.....and you might want to check for the same with the limbsavers as well.
There should not be any strange vibrations coming from the bow.
As for the Browning Eclipse SL...how did you know I had that bow once? I think I had it back in the spring of 2000. Here is what I liked about the bow. It felt stable in my hand...very well balanced. I like the adjustability of the cam. The Browning Cybercam is very similar to the Hoyt Versacam in that you can adjust draw length via an inner cam draw length adjustment module...and you can adjust percentage of letoff as well, but not via the same draw stop method used on the Versacam.
The Cybercam also utilizes a dual track idler wheel just like the Versacam, so you have the same type of advantages there. The Cybercam is an extremely smooth drawing cam. I would definitely compare it to the Hoyt Saber/Excel cam as well as the Mathews Straightline maxcam....it might even be smoother...but that is extremely subjective on my part since I don't have any of the fancy machines that some of the pros on here do.
The Eclipse was a great all around bow...mid axle to axle length (36-37 inches), mid level brace height...7 inches....average IBO speed 300 fps. A bow that could probably be used for just about any application.
Now the downside......I always had a problem with Browning's "centershot". According to Browning, the "centershot" of their bows is roughly a quarter inch farther outside the actual center line of the limbs riser when compared to most other bows. This can cause problems with certain arrow rests that don't have a great deal of "left and right" adjustability, since you generally have to move the rest far to the outside of the center of the sight window in order to obtain acceptable paper tuning results.
Also, if you get a chance, draw the bow back and then examine how the string comes off the dual track idler wheel and the cyber single cam. All of the bows that I have drawn that were equipped with this cam had the string come off the cam/idler at an extremely sharp angle. It did not come back in a straightline with the grove on the cam/idler but rather pointed out in the direction of the sight window.
Though I did not notice a decrease in accuracy because of this I did find it disturbing enough to make me lose confidence in the bow. I cannot honestly say that this would apply in ever case so I would kindly ask for you to check the bow out for yourself.
I hope that I answered all of your questions and I apologize for rambling one so....
....if I keep it up then they will start calling me "JeffB"....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....naaaaaaahhh, I am too good looking....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/16/2002 19:09:07
I went with the Versacam over the Excel cam for several reasons.
First off, I had owned both a Havoc with the Saber cam and a Havoc with the Versacam the previous year so I was familiar with both cams...extensively. Both styles have their merits.....the Excel cam is a very smooth drawing cam similar to the Mathews Straightline Maxcam series. This cam has a gradual climb up to its peak weight during the draw cycle and just as gradual of a transition from that peak weight down into the bow's valley and subsequent back wall.
The Versacam is relatively smooth, but not as smooth to draw as the Excel cam. It comes up to its peak weight a little quicker and drops off more quickly into the valley.....with an average setup. The force draw curve of the Versacam can be adjusted more...but I am getting ahead of myself.
My problem with the Excel cam and other cams like it had to do directly with my form. When I shot the Saber cam equipped bow I saw a signficant decrease in accuracy...reportedly because I was probably creeping forward slightly during the shot sequence. There wasn't enough of sharp contrast between the back wall, valley and the overall transition to peak weight for me to maintain the same exact draw during each shot....which, subsequently, led to poor accuracy.
The Versacam, on the other hand, can be set to allow for a more noticeable and drastic transition between the back wall, valley, and transition to peak weight. I was looking for something that didn't wrench my arm out of its socket and yet was abrupt enough for me to notice if I was creeping forward...even slightly.
Enter, the Versacam. Because of its ability to adjust both the draw length and percentage of letoff via the inner cam draw length adjustment module and draw stop peg the cam can basically be set to whatever style of force-draw curve you want: Really long valley, long valley, medium valley, short valley, extra short valley, etc....
The Excel cam allows you to adjust percentage of letoff via a draw stop peg but in doing so you are also shortening the draw length of the bow at the same time. You cannot do one without affecting the other. So, if you order the bow with a "28 inch" draw length and you want the bow to be set at 65% letoff then your draw length will actually be shorter than 28 inches since the bow comes shipped at the draw length you requested and either 70 or 75% letoff. For each hole that you adjust the draw stop peg you lower the percentage of letoff by 5% but you also shorten draw length by 1/3 of an inch.
As for your buddy's experience with an oscillation near the bottom cam. I would check to make sure that the inner cam draw length module's lock down screws and the draw stop peg was tightened down.....and you might want to check for the same with the limbsavers as well.
There should not be any strange vibrations coming from the bow.
As for the Browning Eclipse SL...how did you know I had that bow once? I think I had it back in the spring of 2000. Here is what I liked about the bow. It felt stable in my hand...very well balanced. I like the adjustability of the cam. The Browning Cybercam is very similar to the Hoyt Versacam in that you can adjust draw length via an inner cam draw length adjustment module...and you can adjust percentage of letoff as well, but not via the same draw stop method used on the Versacam.
The Cybercam also utilizes a dual track idler wheel just like the Versacam, so you have the same type of advantages there. The Cybercam is an extremely smooth drawing cam. I would definitely compare it to the Hoyt Saber/Excel cam as well as the Mathews Straightline maxcam....it might even be smoother...but that is extremely subjective on my part since I don't have any of the fancy machines that some of the pros on here do.
The Eclipse was a great all around bow...mid axle to axle length (36-37 inches), mid level brace height...7 inches....average IBO speed 300 fps. A bow that could probably be used for just about any application.
Now the downside......I always had a problem with Browning's "centershot". According to Browning, the "centershot" of their bows is roughly a quarter inch farther outside the actual center line of the limbs riser when compared to most other bows. This can cause problems with certain arrow rests that don't have a great deal of "left and right" adjustability, since you generally have to move the rest far to the outside of the center of the sight window in order to obtain acceptable paper tuning results.
Also, if you get a chance, draw the bow back and then examine how the string comes off the dual track idler wheel and the cyber single cam. All of the bows that I have drawn that were equipped with this cam had the string come off the cam/idler at an extremely sharp angle. It did not come back in a straightline with the grove on the cam/idler but rather pointed out in the direction of the sight window.
Though I did not notice a decrease in accuracy because of this I did find it disturbing enough to make me lose confidence in the bow. I cannot honestly say that this would apply in ever case so I would kindly ask for you to check the bow out for yourself.
I hope that I answered all of your questions and I apologize for rambling one so....
....if I keep it up then they will start calling me "JeffB"....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....naaaaaaahhh, I am too good looking....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/16/2002 19:09:07
01-16-2002, 07:18 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: waterord michigan USA
Posts: 46
RE: PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
PABowhntr, Thank you very much for the information, that was not rambling to me, that was everything I wanted to know about both bows. You have made my choice easier with what you explained about the different hoyt cams. Now all I need to do is go down and shoot the bow myself to make sure it's right for me. Again, thank you very much,
chad
chad
01-16-2002, 08:18 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
....if I keep it up then they will start calling me "JeffB"....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....naaaaaaahhh, I am too good looking....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I'll take brains over looks anyday.
JeffB
....if I keep it up then they will start calling me "JeffB"....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....naaaaaaahhh, I am too good looking....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I'll take brains over looks anyday.
JeffB
01-16-2002, 08:36 PM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
When you make your selection, keep in mind the ATA difference between the two limb styles offered on the HavocTec. I didn't realize it until I read the catalog. The ZR200 limbs are 34" ATA, whereas the XT2000 limbs make the bow 31 1/2" ATA.
This difference will make a difference in the feel, set-up and comfort of the bow depending on the shooter's draw length.
This difference will make a difference in the feel, set-up and comfort of the bow depending on the shooter's draw length.
01-17-2002, 05:56 AM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
Good point Len. Axle to axle length was not an issue prior to this year because the XT2000 and ZR200 were roughly the same length. But since Hoyt shortened the XT2000 limbs by an inch and a half there is more of a significant difference.
I think some folks don't realize that the Magnatec and Hypertec are now a couple inches shorter this year because of the shorter limb design.
Jeff,
I apologize.....but I couldn't resist a little jab...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I think some folks don't realize that the Magnatec and Hypertec are now a couple inches shorter this year because of the shorter limb design.
Jeff,
I apologize.....but I couldn't resist a little jab...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
01-17-2002, 04:58 PM
#7
Spike
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Carlton MN USA
Posts: 17
RE: PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
Chad,
When you shoot the versacam, in your draw length, be sure to have the letoff adjusted to the recommended % that is in the owners manual. Made a huge difference for me. Try it there, and if needed, you can adjust from that point.
When you shoot the versacam, in your draw length, be sure to have the letoff adjusted to the recommended % that is in the owners manual. Made a huge difference for me. Try it there, and if needed, you can adjust from that point.
01-17-2002, 06:18 PM
#9
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
Jeff,
Can I be of some assistance to you for once?
This site, unlike any of the other "ultimate BBS" message boards that you and I visit makes the user stick [ ] around the smilie faces in order for them to work.....
...just thought I would lend a hand.
Can I be of some assistance to you for once?
This site, unlike any of the other "ultimate BBS" message boards that you and I visit makes the user stick [ ] around the smilie faces in order for them to work.....
...just thought I would lend a hand.
01-17-2002, 08:06 PM
#10
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: waterord michigan USA
Posts: 46
RE: PABowhntr - Havoc-Tec question
Oledaswede, I'm a little confused now. Are you only supposed to shoot certain draw lengths at certain letoffs with the versacam? is it possible to adjust draw length to 27 inches and letoff to 80%? presently I shoot an old mathews ultra light with the old procam with 80% letoff (yeah, I know it's a dinosaur thats why i'm looking at the Havoc-tec) I've really grown accustomed to 80% letoff and would like to stay there.