Is my draw length too long?
 

I may be grabbing at straws here but just wondering. I have 2 bows, one is a Hoty MT Sport and the other a Mathews Outback.

The Hoyt, just fits. When I draw and settle in, it just feels good. The Outback, is another story. It's just never been comfortable like the Hoyt. Both have a 29.5 draw. The Outback has a loop, the Hoyt does not.

Just curious and not sure if you can tell from the pictures if it is too long on the Mathews or not, but thought I would ask.





I've always had trouble with my Broadheads hitting the bullseye with my field tips on the Outback. I've been thru everything and the only thing I found is if I change my anchor point to be closer to my chin (not like you see in the picture) and I can get the BH and FP to hit the same spot. Problem is, it is not natural feeling.

Any thoughts, on form anything would be appreciated.

TIA

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Obvious question........;)Why would you expect2 bows with the "same" draw length (which many times varies WILDLY from manufacturer to manufacturer, bow to bow from the stated length) and then take one with a loop and one without and expect them to feel the same?

Also , long barreled-rearward trigger release + loop + possibly too long of a draw length = discomfort and inconsistency. Just look at where your release hand is located: WAY back.
The tendency to "arch" your forearm and wrist also points to your body trying to scrunch up and make the draw length and accessories managable.

IMO yeah your out of whack there but the problem with trying to dignose and cure form issues in pics is they are just that....pictures. There are so many variables involved and angles that it really takes a qualified person a hands on , face to face type analysis to get things going in the right direction.
The problem with doing it HERE is that while well meaning , many times you are going to get misinformation and suggestions from 20 different directions that can turn one problem into another.

My advice? Go see Len. ;)LOL

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Thanks for the quick response. This sorta sums up what a novice like me wouldn't see.


"Also , long barreled-rearward trigger release + loop + possibly too long of a draw length = discomfort and inconsistency. Just look at where your release hand is located: WAY back.
The tendency to "arch" your forearm and wrist also points to your body trying to scrunch up and make the draw length and accessories managable."


You are correct, I shouldn't assume the drawswould be the same. But in a perfect world, they would be. :D

I went to a loop on this one I think just because it seemed to be the 'cool' thing to do. I should have stayed with the way I was shooting. See the Mathews was a gift. My Father had one it in a contest and had just bought a new Hoyt and didn't want it so I got it. I had to go and get fitted and send in the specs and then it arrived to the house. So I think that sorta started my problems. Even before I put the loop on, I just never thought the draw cycle fit me well.

I think I am going to take the loop off and I've been thinking of a new release. This would be a good excuse.

Thanks again for the insight. Just what I was looking for and why I always turn to this forum.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

you may be able to ask someone to watch you shoot. have them get behind you and see if your release elbow is extended past the plane of the arrow. can't tell from the pics, but its a pretty good indication of too long a draw. like matt said, some of this could be cleaned up w/ a shorter release.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

You may want to check the actual draw length on that bow also. Sometimes the draw length specified by the installed modules for a bow is actually longer than it really should be. When you draw an arrow on the mathews does it stop at the same place as it does on the hoyt?

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

I agree completely.


You can get alot of help through the pics but problem is that there will always be someone that will give you wrong info while someone else is giving you good info.You are left to decipher who is correct and who is full of it.Not to mention what is right for YOU.There is no cookie cutter form that is right for everyone ,just a few basics thatMOSTshould try and conform to.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

I've always been a nonconformist and will never change. So there!!!!!!

Hey, Matt hit things pretty well and I have nothing to add except that between the loop and the release it appears you're overdrawn by 1 1/2" or more. I'd get that part straightened out first before you make any changes to the bow.

And get the bow measured to see if it is the stated drawlength. I'd guess that it is long as well.

You need the help of a good coach or good target shooter.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

That is why MOST is capitalized.Have to leave some wiggle room for the nonconformist.[8D]

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Sure looks like you have a real low wrist and locked bow arm. I would say maybe upwards of 2" too long. Maybe not.

I like my bow arm to not be locked, and not such a low wrist. That low wrist can cause torquing, and your locked arm.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Release hand knuckles appear to be behind your ear and bow arm is locked and very rigid looking. I would guess that Your bow's drawlength is about 1-1.5" too long, but add in an extra inch+ for your release barrel and I would guess that your release hand is about 3" too far back. It's very difficult to use back tension to trigger a release when your hand is that far back.

First, I would buy an adjustable release designed for use with a loop, shorten the barrel as far as is usable. To get my release hand in the right position, I use the 2nd knuckle on my index finger to hook over the trigger. Then, either shorten the loop as far as possible or remove it.

I'm curious, what is your wingspan?

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

So far, all the advice seems to be the same. Never realized was so out of wack (well at least with my bow/form.)

I do appreciate it all. I am going to change some of this up and see if it helps. I will post some new picturesonce I get this all changed, probably in a week or two.

What I'd love to see is some pictures of proper form. Where myhand should be and what my wrist should be like. I'm also going to snap some of me shooting my Hoyt and see what the difference is.

Edited to add: Not sure on my wingspan. I'm just under 6 foot so my wingspan should be right around there. I had to order this bow so I went to a dealer and had them size me up. He seemed to have a big attitude that I wasn't buying it from there and to be honest, once I got the bow, I drove by his place everytime I went to set this bow up at another dealer. Never went back (and now I'm thinking for good reason.)

Thanks again guys.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

it would help to have a picture from your open side, your back side (lord i know how that sounds), and above from behind you- all while you're at full draw aiming at a target at shoulder height. rickjames has some excellent pics of good form on here, and tfox has a lot too - of top shooters form.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

this is me today. haven't had a pic in a while - sticking my dang butt out again - probably why my lower back is a bit sore. besides that the bow fits me pretty good.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

to add a bit, this is something, plus video, that many archers do on a monthly basis. been too long for me. it helps not to let bad habits get too ingrained, + form always evolves and you have to decide if its changing for the better or worse.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

I swear!!!!! Looks like pink shoes to me.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

they're tan dangit.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Hey, I have those same shoes. Doesn't form start from the feet up? Maybe I'm doing something right. :D

I really do appreciate the help. I'm going to search on the those guys and see if I can find them.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Looks like the start of a litle bitty pouch there too, bud.

I'm sorry. I'm in one of my moods today.

Barry

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

yeah, i'm working on it. its the dang coca cola barry - i love that crap - and its catching up w/ me.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Yep:)and the older you get the worse it gets. Fight'en the pouch that is;)

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Do those shoes have cleats on em?:D

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Here is a good pic(video) of some really good form.







Here is one of me a little too short.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YYwcNVjcjgU


Look at my front shoulder.It is starting to work up on me.I am actually shooting this draw length now but with a longer loop.If you could see me from the back,you would see my elbow is way out on me.I just can't get it back far enough with this drawlength.


Here is one of me a little too long.About a 1/4" is all but enough for me to notice.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YdXv0cKiFC8



Here is a pic of strictly target form.I am nota big fan of the cocked wrist on his release hand but that is one of those things that works for him and quite well,I might add;). He does show you how you should try and wrap your finger over the release triggerto execute a proper shot.


Most will say not to lock the elbow but it is really a matter of preference and may not be best in hunting attire but it can be done.






As you can see in your picture,you are nowhere close to any of these pics or theprevious posters pics.You are definately long andwith a release that isn't set up right for you.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Todd, the second vid says it's private.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Thanks,should be fixed now.


There are a few other form flaws that I am aware of.The double set is something I have worked on for a while but it is just comfortable that way.:eek:

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

tfox, does the 'double set' refer to you extending your bow shoulder after you're drawn? i do it too.


and i think michael may be sticking his butt out a little too LOL.

when i was at larry's school - we took pics of him shooting - and he was letting his wrist get turned out a bit. he was telling us pics and vid is the only way to keep the badfrom creeping in.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

I see what you mean by the double set... it's like you draw, wait a split second, then come to your final set...

Some of you guys almost look like the heel of your palm is touching the grip, though I'm sure it's not... do most of you guys shoot with that low a wrist? It's probably just the way it comes across in pics, as I've seen pics of me and I feel like I've got a pretty moderate/mid wrist, but it looks about the same...

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

I don't think his but is sticking out,it is his gut.That makes his but look like it is poked out.:DI have met him a few times and know he has no problems with me saying that.[:o]


The double set does refer to me resetting the bow.I actually used to pull my shoulders real high and then drop them into place.That was a real bad double set but have worked hard not to do it.


My grip is just inside (thumb side)the life line.If I get to where I am only between the thumb and index finger like some suggest,the bow is unstable and is very painfull.


Just to add,the camera is at an angle in the second video and makes me look as though everything is pointed down.


Different view of Braden.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Greg,my hand pretty much is like Bradens in where it the grip crosses my hand but my fingers are more relaxed and set lower. More like Cousins in the first video but man I wish I had that same follow through.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

greg, levi and adam and a few others are wrapping their hands up onto the shelf like michael in that picture. its the hot thing i think. i'm trying it to find out why.

tfox, maybe in a year - i hope to be shooting as nicely as your shot looks - quite beautiful - short or long draw. still working thru a lot of stuff.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

You guys ROCK!!!

So i remembered the cam on the Outback has a 65% letoff that is 29 inches.I changed that. Then I retied the loop as small as I could. I had my Dad bring out his release (a Tru Ball) and gave it a shot. At first, I remembered why I never kept it at 29" because it seemed like once the cam rolled over, it was hard to hold it at full draw (because I was creeping forward.) But after a few shots, I wasused to it. I was putting arrows side by side from 25 yards and shooting great groups.

Next onto the broadhead and guess what, they are shooting beautifully. Definitely excited about this. I'm going to get myself the same release and hopefully I'm all set. I hopeto get some pictures to to see what the difference is in my anchor point. I'll update this post when I do. I'm also going to do the same with my Hoyt once I get my arrows back. They are getting reflected.

Thanks again guys.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Pops

You bring up a good point about the length of your loop. You can gain way over 1/2" of draw length after the loop starts to really stretch. I didn't realize how long mine as until I took a look at my picture in the Techno Hunt thread. Time to cut off and replace.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

The loop is definately a factor.You can look at my draw length in my first video and see that I am too short but that is the draw length I am shooting but just with a longer loop.


I also changed my let off modules and I believe that added about another 1/8" to maybe a 1/4".Haven't measured it because when I shot it,I KNEW it was dead on.;)

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

The draw length vs ATA makes a difference on a person's anchor point too. My anchor point is about 2 inches further back than it was with my Whitetail Legend. When I was looking at bows I would anchor at my old spot and 29" bows would fit me but the string was an inch or more from my nose. It took a while to adjust having the release back as far as it is with a wrist strap release.

I did notice too though that I have to shorten my strap on the release to get my finger to the nuckle instead of the tip.

That's a good point about the letoff on the module TFOX. The draw top on the Bowtechs can be adjusted to change letoff and it also shortens or lengthens the draw length by a small amount. I'm still getting used to the bow and haven't found that perfect spot yet.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

This is why I alway tie on a "Catfish Loop". It wil not stretch, even a little and therefore allows my hand to be closer to the string than tying one with regular loop cord from a bow shop. In addition there are lots of other advantages to a Catfish Loop. The only disadvantage - you have to spend 10-15 minutes tying one.

Learn how to tie one here: http://www.racksandspurs.proboards38.com/index.cgi?board=techbow&action=display&thr ead=1143505027

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Straightarrow,

Thank you for the link. I have a spool of poly so I may have to give that a try.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Here's my first Catfish Loop. I left my original loop on there for comparison and also because I need to make sure I have the lenght I want before cutting off.

Thw things I learned: Start closer to the knot end and finish further near the top with my wraps. Other than that the loop isn't hard to do just takes longer than a regular loop. You can see on the right side where I tied in a few extra knots to fill in the space. So, this one gets cut off and I do anotehr one that is shorter by a small amount.

Thanks again for the link Straightarrow.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

Looks good Dave. When is the grand opening of your shop? lol

Have you tried stretching it?

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

It does not stretch at all. I just did loop #2 and it's tighter and shorter.
Loop #3 should be what I'm looking for. Sorry for the hijack.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

You might have been creaping forward before because you were using the other release that had you over extended.With the shorter release,it is much easier to keep it back.

RE: Is my draw length too long?
 

no problem on the hijack. this is good stuff. I wish all of these 'How to' posts were pin or in their own forum for novices like me to come back and reference later.

As for the creeping, that makes sense.