Too bad. I have read some of your posts and I am interested in what you have to say...

This thread isn't even close tosome we had in the past on the same subject.


There are threads in others forums up to 350 pages.

350 pages??!!!!!!! Evidently we (hunters) do have some strongly held beliefs...

This one is over 700
It is because of the subject matter,or lack there of.


Word association.


http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=980747


This one is over 350



http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1203423

We will never have our name up in lights, at least not with this thread!

We need to shoot for 700 then.

I've also shot both arrows at "The Block" and the 512's do not penetrate that as well as the 391's. I knowthat is only 2 tests. But maybe you have to go tomuch heavier arrows for the weight difference on even a 65 lb bow to make a difference. Therefore, I do not see how even a 400 grain min would solve anything.

The better penetration could also be due to the 2213's beinglighter than the graphites you've tried. Even if most fo your tests have shown that the heavier arrow penetrated deaper. The one set of graphites I have are heavier than the 2413's that I have by about 2 gpi. For my arrow that's 56 gr or more depending on what length I shoot. I believe the 2413's are 10. something gpi. The 520 gr graphites I have are 12.3 gpi not counting everything attached to them.

When you do your test,remember to equalize the foc.You must also do it by keeping the diameter the same.You can not do a penetration test when diameters are different.It will not work.Live animals are different,I still believe it makes a difference,but not nearly as much.



I have done some of these test and being a tool maker,I was able to keep all things equal.I played with foc and that made a huge difference.I had a 350 gr arrow that did better than an arrow that was heavier than my scale would measure(700 gr range?).The foc was 5% and the arrow hit the board and stopped.The lighter arrow did much better but the foc was 12%.This was using the same arrow,I just added a weight tube.The arrow aslo spined all the way to 100# so spine was good.BUT,when I used an arrow that was built with extra mass up front and had an foc of 18%(traditional light nitro stinger)and a total weight in the 420 gr range,it blew through my test medium.Particle board and foam together.

All the above test were with Nitro Stingers and they are tapered shafts.


There is definately much more to the penetration game than arrow weight.That has never been disputed in this thread.It is just much better to setup a heavy arrow for a novice and accomplish good penetration,especially on marginal hits.


I have found spine to be a crucial part of penetration.


I personally feel that ke plays a role when dealing with compounds that store alot of energy.They get high ke numbers.As well as speed when it comes toSLICING skin and tissuebut not much farther than that.Not really a big help.


Some test here in the past showed that expandables had a better track record when utilizing speed and ke.


I know,momentum is present with high ke.I believe when momentum is equal,the one with higher kewill penetrate further.So therefore,there has to be an offset between the 2 somewhere.



Momentum bust throughbone and that can't be dipsuted.When combined with cut on contact heads,it will blow through anything put in front of it.This is the basis of this whole thread.



Long bows and recurves don't store nearly as much energy as some compounds.They must utilize momentum because the ke are relatively lower.


I also feel that when all else is equal,the carbon arrows penetrate better.They are stiffer and will not bend nearly as much as aluminum when frontal impact is made.Look at an aluminum arrow when it hits a 3 d target.It takes a while for it to quit vibrating.


An arrow is a tuning fork and the arrowSHOULD vibrate all the way to and through it's target.Excessive vibration will kill penetration because the energy is going side to side instead of through.


This is different than spine or I probably should say,taking spine to another level.[8D]




The heck with 20,were going for 30.

I find it kind of funny that everyone keeps saying the heavier arrow is deffinetly better for marginal hits because it gets better penetration. Now to me a marginal hit usualy means nothittingthe vitals, as in gut shot, in that ham, paunch. Honestly if I had to shoot an animal anywhere but the vitals. Id rather have the arrow stay in, in hopes of it moving around and hopfully cutting an artery or getting turned and shoved in the vitals or something. The only marginal hit I can think of that would need as much penetration as possible is hitting an animal square in the shoulder bone. From my experience its gonna be pretty hard regardless of arrow weight to get through that shoulder bone. My point, does a heavier arrow that possibly penetrates deeper really help on marginal hits? I dont know.

There are alot of vitals in behind the shoulders.

To me the only vitals are right behind the shoulder, lungs, heart, liver. As far as Im concerned an arrow hitting anything else would be considered marginal.