Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Particularly after I shot the Guardian. With the constant push to eliminate all shock, vibration and feedback from a bow during the shot. Can a bow to be too void of "feedback" an be detrimental to consistant accuracy? In years past, a few of the bows I've owned would let me know if I didn't make a good, crisp shot. Its sort of difficult to explain the feel when a shot doesn't go right, but I think most of us who've shot long enough know what I'm talking about. Even these new, ultra low shock designs will let you know, but its not nearly as pronounced as some of the older designs.

I often have wondered why you do not see many parallel limb configurations on the indoor line. I realize ATA length plays a large role, but many of the longer ATA parallel bows feel much longer than they really are.

Tuning is another thing that comes to mind. I remember quite a few bows that I could tell to a degree that my tuning efforts were getting closer as the bow would begin to exibit less noise and vibration. With a bow that has very little to begin with, I believe it might be easy to be lulled into thinking its good enough when if fact it might not be. Are we beginning to rely more heavily on only visual feedback on paper or target and not also with bow feel?

Too much vibration of course is not good. But wouldn't too little or none, have similar affects?

I realize this post may infringe somewhaton what PAbowhnter has already posted and I apologize if it has. My goal was to take this in the other direction.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

IMO,yes as far as targets go.

Look at the new Hoyt pro 38 and ultra 38.One of the Hoyt engineers actually stated that it lunges slightly forwardthe waytarget archers like.If the bow doesn't lunge forward but instead goes to the side a bit,you will know BUT most good shooters will know anyway.I haven't shot one yet so I can not say how much or little lunge it has but was part of the thought process at Hoyt.

I have said many times when shooting tournaments,man,that felt good.I have also said,that felt like sh!t a few times too.[:o]


IMO,the reason you don't see parralel limbs in the pros hand is because they are not as easy to hold as a standard limb angle bow.A parralel limb bow starts to look like a box at full draw and a regular limb angle bow looks like a triangle.Which is sturdier? Thistranslates into forgiveness and accuracy.(plus the limb angle gives feed back)I also believe the parralel limb offset the larger brace.


When poking deer at 30 yards,there isn't a problem.Even stretching to 50 can be done quite effectively but there is a difference when you put a deflex,40" a-a bow with a 8"+ brace with an angled limb in your hands and start shooting at distance for extreme accuracy on a conistant basis in a variety of circumstances.


All bows are accurate,just some are more accurate to shooter flaws than others.;)

Just an opinion guys.[8D]

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I tend to agree, which is one reason why I've yet to own a parallel limbed bow. I like a little feedback on the shot. I also like lighter risers and vastly prefer the looks of a more traditional bow.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I think there is some merit to what you are saying as well and I do not think I could have said it more accurately.

However, as with many issues I do not think we can necessarily generalize to include all parallel limb bows in this category. Yes, reduced recoil is a factor with all of them but the cam style also comes into play. I am sure we have all felt the difference in shot feel between a single cam and a dual cam bow regardless of the limb/riser design.

The reason I mention this in particular is because I have been giving some thought to this issue recently as well. Five or six years ago I was very big on the original Hoyt Havoc with the Redline cam. At the time it was one of the few "short" bows on the market offered in my draw length. There were many aspects of the bow that appealed to me but the one I seldom mentioned, and now realize was probably one of the most important, was that it delivered the arrow with what I felt was an authoritative feel to it. I do not know exactly how to describe it but I believe it was the same issue that muzz is referring to.

Now, the reason I have been giving thought to it lately is because the Diamond Black Ice that I am now shooting delivers that same feeling to my hand as I release the arrow. Based on the premise that the lack of "feel" during the shot isthe result of theparallellimb design my experience with the Black Ice should not be occurring. My conclusionwould then be that it has to be the result of the cam design or possibly the result of a variety of factors not the least of which being the weight of the bow, the bow's geometry, or overall balance.

In essence though I think the parallel limb design could potentially be an issue with "feedback" as you called it I think there are other issues probably also at play here.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

PA, that is an excellent way of putting it.

I also agree about cam design having a lot to do with it, though I think the new binary and other hybrid designs are better than single cams, especially in regards to authoritative shot feeling. Wonder if they'll use this statement in their adds someday?

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I do not think it has been my experience that one cam design in particular has been noticeably superior to another in terms of that authoritative feel for me personally. The two bows I mentioned were single cams though I have felt it with other cam designs as well. I believe it to be more of the case of a combination of issues not the least of which being the particular cam design. It could also be something as simple as an archer's shooting form with a particular bow. I just don't have an answer exactly but I do have alot of suspicions.

As for them using my comment in a promotional piece, whom were you referring to? Hoyt or Diamond? :) I would hope the latter since Hoyt isn't making the Havoc anymore.:D

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

Very interesting question. I don't know that I can shoot well enough to really give a helpful answer, but I will say that I got a surprise this summer. When I first shot a low recoil bow (Q2 XL), I realized that all the time I had been shooting other bows, I had been flinching some. I have noticed several bows that I owned seemed to be very critical of my mistakes, while others seemed more forgiving, errors resulted in arrows missing by less than the more critical bows. To make the bow have more parallel limbs, the riser must have pretty much reflex to it. According to Len and others, this should make the bow less forgiving to shoot. That seemed to hold true until I got my Champion Scorpion. The riser has 3" of reflex, and the bow has a brace height of only 7". It has less recoil than any other CPS cammed bow I've owned. Should be a nightmare to shoot, right? I have, on several occaisions, often when pretty nervous, shot 4 arrows into less than a 2" circle at 30 yards with this bow. Considering my old eyes and the fact that I don't use a peep sight, I just can't do much better. The bow also tuned easily with broadheads. Much more easily than a Scepter 3 with Nitrous X, or a Rival Pro with greater ATA and an 8" brace height. I think each bow is a law unto itself. I just can't figure this one out, except that it pleases me very much. I really think it all boils down to whether you can keep concentrating, hold pretty steady, and aim througout the shot without anticipating. If you can do that, the accuracy should be pretty good, shock or no shock.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

This is a perfect example of what I was referring to. It has to be a combination of factors that leads to that particular feel.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

IMO, the parallel limb design is for primarily hunters in mind. Looking for the more compact design, while still being able to deliver features yhat target bows have. Longer riser = a more steady shot w/forgiveness.If I am correct, but are not the risersable to maintain length,but the ata isshorter due to the parallel limbs?Regarding the "feel" of a good/bad shot, I recently got a Tribute. A far cry from 5 yr. old dbl oval cam Golden Eagle, mind you. But after learning, from the proshop owner, how to "hold" this bow, I could feel whether or not a shotwas good just by the way the arrow released.That was at the day Itested it out & bought it.It could be, that we must adjust our grip/shooting style to these new high tech bows, & by doing so we may end up having that feeling again.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

Frank: I find it very interesting that you should mention that the Black Ice reminds you of the Havoc in terms of what you are feeling in your bow hand. One would think that it would have a very much lower "recoil" feel due to the different geometry. I would have thought it would have the lowest of the low recoil bows you have owned, given the design of the bow. It does make sense that you are feeling a similar sensation with two bows that shoot very well for you, even though you seem to shoot them all pretty well. Frank has been kind enough to let me shoot his 1. '03 Patriot, 2. '04 Mighty Mite VFT, 3. '04 Pro 40 Freedom, and 4 '05 Old Glory. All very nice bows to be sure, but all just a little different from each other. That Black Ice I looked at and drew at Cabelas had an absolutely awesome grip!

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

This is good stuff guys. Maybe its not a particular design or a combination of design characteristics we're after. Are we suggesting that each bow has a particular "feel" that we all eventually aquire after shooting it a while? I remember a certain Hoyt Xtec I owned that had a "feel" all its own to me. I knew right away, even with eye's closed when I shot a good or bad shot. It was a particular way the bow reacted in my hand.

But I wonder, for example, if a bow was created that had zero shock, recoil etc. Could any error on our part then exibit a little shock and therefor teach us to shoot the bow the correct way every time?

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

Muzz .... this is how new technology starts ... great post here ......

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I tend to agree that there could be some merit to that. Now you are starting to get into what I was referring to in my other thread. I believe you will run into some opposition with that though. Having a bow teach us how to shoot......I don't know.

;)

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I agree with everyone posts.

For me, its feel. Like any athlete in any sport in some ways. How some pichers pitch better in the heat, or the cold. Or how how some NASCAR guys like their cars tighter or looser. Most shooters I know like some kind of feedback from the bow. I certainly do. I am having a hard time deciding between the the new Bowtechs for precisely that reason.

I like to feel my bow. No feedback, for me, isn't perfection. It's a very fine line between the two though.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

Muzzyman, nice post. Good to see some real thought & conversation in this thread.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I have not read every post, but the question was asked if a bow can be too shock free. Now I am assuming that it is a bare bow without all the dampners and silencer gizmos on it that we are talking about.

I would say no, a bow can not be too shock free. A shock free bow will be a more efficient bow which will transfer more energy to the arrow.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

Bobco, I understand and agree with what you're saying. However, I'm referring more on accuracy and not efficiency. Actually, consistant accuracy. But you bring up a very good point. The better the tune on a bow, the more efficient it should be. This also will yield less vibration and noise usually.

However, we all remember the days of shooting bows that would jar your teeth loose. Flinching, catching the bow, ducking...all that took away from accuracy.:D

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I'm probably not as consumed with Bows and all the refinements that can be made to them as those ofyou who frequent the tech forum.

But if you are a serious target shooter I would say yes a bow can be too shock free. I can relate by saying I had bought a set of golf clubs a couple years ago. Callaway's to be exact. They were so forgiving that every shot felt pure, even if the results told me otherwise. I hated that. You need to feel where your misses are. It didn't take me long to realize these clubs weren't for me.

Perhaps a more casual shooter or hunter (or golfer in my caes) would like the no feedback..but once you attain a certain level you are more in tune with what the feedback is telling you.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I guess I misunderstood your question then. Accuracy and consistancy is much a variable of the archer. Accuracywill comeform which can beapplied consistantly.

I thought the question pertained more to the bow itself.


Some people are sensitive to shock, some are not. Some even develop tennis elbow. I have to pay attention to myself not to overshoot my moose hunting bow. It's a Howard Hill andshoots 74#'s at 29". Some would think it kicks like a mule, some would say it doesn't kick at all. I'm kind of in the middle, but it is the quietest bow I have ever shot even without silencers. And in my hands it is accurate. But not the most efficient bow out there.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

Muzzy, I quite understand what you're saying here. However accuracy lies more in the shooter's form and release--the bow will only do as much as the shooter can.
As for zero recoil--after shooting the Guuardian for the first time, I asked myself the same question--kind of like--'what just happened'.
Guess I can relate this to, having a fish on hook and not knowing it's still there--sort of thing.Or a pill that melts in your mouth without having to swallow it whole. Almost like loosing the 'feeling'.
I think there's no one answer for your question, as this touch will always vary with the shooter.
Good topic none the less!

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I think archery is more of a mental game than most people realize and the shock free high priced speedy bows are confidence. There is no doubt that when you get a new bow even if your not shooting so good at first you have such confidence in your equipment that you know it wont fail you and your going to improve. And no I dont think that shock and vibration have anything to do with accuracy. This happens after the arrow is released which doesnt have jack to do with the arrow hitting its mark. I will agree that when shooting a shock free bow it takes some getting used to. But i dont think it can make you any better shooter or worse, just maybe change your confidence level.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I agree with this last post, however, only to an extent. I have read and heard from many good, 595+ shooters that say that they prefer a little "forward umph" for lack of better terminalogy. IF this energy is delivered in a controlled manner, than who's to say its not correct as opposed to no felt recoil at all.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I kind of seperate recoil away from noise and vibration. A bow that slightly jumped forward has never really bothered me. However Ive never shot one that jumped forward that much. However Ive owned some that consistently jumped forward at the shot and others that would torque to one side sometimes at the shot and that shot was usually not placed where you wanted it. So i will say that theyre are bows out there that let you know youve made a bad shot right away by the way they react and there are others that leave you saying, HUH...well that felt good, but not where i wanted it. For an example. I had a versacam cybertec a few years ago would always have a very minimal bottom jump. But felt the same whether you made a perfect placement or pulled the shot. You didnt really know youd made a bad shot untill the arrow hit the target. The bowtech justice I had kicked left everytime I made a bad shot. I suppose bows like this could actually teach the shooter a thing or two about what theyre doing wrong. In other words some bows will emmidiatly tell the shooter that they have made a mistake and others wont. But I think in the end its mostly just up to the archer. Knowing that the bow acted funny and the shot didnt feel right does you no good after the arrows released.

RE: Can a bow be too shock free?
 

I was @ the range on Sat, & have come up with this conclusion. Maybe the less shock/recoil allows us to have to concentrate more on form & technique due to the fact that now, we are in fact contributing more to the arrows flight. I noticed this when not holding by bow arm straight out until the arrow hits or when not squeezing the trigger. I think that ourform & techniques now are more pronounced, rather than the older style bows covering up our shooting nuances.