Forgiveness??
01-12-2007, 09:32 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Posts: 1,118
Forgiveness??
I know both the axle-to-axle length and brace height affect a bows forgiveness but which affects it more? And to what degree??
I ask this because of all the tribute vs. allegiance threads. Ive shot both and went with the tribute because of the longer brace height, 7.5 compared to 7. I believe the allegiance has a 33" axle compared to the tributes 31". Which would be more forgiving?
Is there a magical ratio of forgivess? Such as 2" axle length= 1" of brace height?
I ask this because of all the tribute vs. allegiance threads. Ive shot both and went with the tribute because of the longer brace height, 7.5 compared to 7. I believe the allegiance has a 33" axle compared to the tributes 31". Which would be more forgiving?
Is there a magical ratio of forgivess? Such as 2" axle length= 1" of brace height?
01-13-2007, 08:11 AM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Forgiveness??
Those measurements are so close it would be pretty hard to compare. It would also depend on how long your draw length was. You also over looked the amount of reflex in the riser and how long the riser is on each bow.
Both are short bows with decent brace height, but keep in mind it's not uncommon for a short bow to have 8 inches of brace height. This leads me to beleive they have a fair amount of reflex to them which can make it easier to torque the bow.
I have not looked at either bow though to compare them to be honest.
Paul
Both are short bows with decent brace height, but keep in mind it's not uncommon for a short bow to have 8 inches of brace height. This leads me to beleive they have a fair amount of reflex to them which can make it easier to torque the bow.
I have not looked at either bow though to compare them to be honest.
Paul
01-13-2007, 09:17 AM
#3
Join Date: Mar 2004
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RE: Forgiveness??
As Paul mentioned, there are many factors that affect forgiveness. Brace height is a big one, though. The longer the power stroke of the cam (shorter BH) the longer the arrow is on the string, giving us more time to "mess up," if you will. But that's where the speed comes from.
Bow companies are making bows to be both fast and forgiving now. GENERALLY speaking, though, a short ATA bow is less forgiving than a long, and short BH is less forgiving than a long BH, and a slower arrow is more forgiving than a fast, speaking in general terms. Cams also affect it, a very aggressive cam is less forgiving than a less aggressive cam...
Bow companies are making bows to be both fast and forgiving now. GENERALLY speaking, though, a short ATA bow is less forgiving than a long, and short BH is less forgiving than a long BH, and a slower arrow is more forgiving than a fast, speaking in general terms. Cams also affect it, a very aggressive cam is less forgiving than a less aggressive cam...
01-13-2007, 06:07 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
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RE: Forgiveness??
Maybe I should have titled this thread as BH vs. Axle length. I know that other factors affect forgiveness I was just curious as to the relationship between these two.
Lets assume that 2 bows have the same riser (i think both the allegiance and the triubte do), same draw length, etc. the only difference would be the BH on one was 1/2" longer. while the other had 2" longer axle. Which would be more forgiving?
Maybe this question is to hypothetical or maybe forgiveness is too hard to measure? if so let me know and we will forget this whole post.
Mobow, isnt the assumption that faster bows are less forgiving because they are usually associated w/ short BH and axle lengths? Also, I've never heard of a cam affecting forgiveness, if you could explain this. Thanks
Lets assume that 2 bows have the same riser (i think both the allegiance and the triubte do), same draw length, etc. the only difference would be the BH on one was 1/2" longer. while the other had 2" longer axle. Which would be more forgiving?
Maybe this question is to hypothetical or maybe forgiveness is too hard to measure? if so let me know and we will forget this whole post.
Mobow, isnt the assumption that faster bows are less forgiving because they are usually associated w/ short BH and axle lengths? Also, I've never heard of a cam affecting forgiveness, if you could explain this. Thanks
01-13-2007, 07:21 PM
#5
Join Date: Mar 2004
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RE: Forgiveness??
ATA isn't as critical, IMO. But that depends again on draw length and release style, fingers or mechanical. The 2 situations you refer too will most likely be nearly the same.I don't think you would notice much difference in the two. And yes, your question is rather "hypothetical" but not completely.
Short ATA bows are more critical to shoot because the slightest error in form is exemplified, almost the same as in a short BH. So, if you had a short ATA AND a short BH, you would have a rather unforgiving bow.
Cams affect forgivness as they are directly related to speed. Super aggressive cams equate to a faster bow, again, directly relating to forgiveness. There are other factors to figure into cams as well though. The draw cycle, force curve, smoothness and aggressivness all play into it, but I'm not an engineer so I must say I'm not sure I could thoroughly explain why.
Again, GENERALLY speaking, short BH bows are less forgiving than long, and short ATA less than long.....but again, other factors play into that as well.
Am I making any sense, or talking circles??
Actually, axle length really doesn't play into the speed equation at all. BH does, however. A short BH means the cam is in it's power stroke longer, thus transferring more energy to the arrow. Conversly, a long BH means the cam is in it's power stroke not as long, transferring LESS energy to the arrow.
Take this scenario....The Hoyt Vectrix IBO is 316, the Vectrix XL is 315. The ATA of the Vectrix is 33", the XL is 36". Yes, the ATA of the XL is longer, and the speed is slower....BUT the BH is the difference...The XL's BH is 1/2" longer, making it a tad slower.
How bout now, are we really confused??
Short ATA bows are more critical to shoot because the slightest error in form is exemplified, almost the same as in a short BH. So, if you had a short ATA AND a short BH, you would have a rather unforgiving bow.
Cams affect forgivness as they are directly related to speed. Super aggressive cams equate to a faster bow, again, directly relating to forgiveness. There are other factors to figure into cams as well though. The draw cycle, force curve, smoothness and aggressivness all play into it, but I'm not an engineer so I must say I'm not sure I could thoroughly explain why.
Again, GENERALLY speaking, short BH bows are less forgiving than long, and short ATA less than long.....but again, other factors play into that as well.
Am I making any sense, or talking circles??
isnt the assumption that faster bows are less forgiving because they are usually associated w/ short BH and axle lengths?
Take this scenario....The Hoyt Vectrix IBO is 316, the Vectrix XL is 315. The ATA of the Vectrix is 33", the XL is 36". Yes, the ATA of the XL is longer, and the speed is slower....BUT the BH is the difference...The XL's BH is 1/2" longer, making it a tad slower.
How bout now, are we really confused??
01-13-2007, 10:04 PM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: Forgiveness??
With 2 bows of such similar specs, and exactly the same cam system, there can't be very much difference in the way they will shoot for you. I would think with the '07s, the Tribute would be a bit more forgiving just due to its greater mass weight, but then again, the Allegiance certainly could shoot better than almost any human's ability to hold on target and execute a shot. 
