Binary Cam Timing?
 

I have a '05 Bowtech Defender. I recently replaced the strings and cables on it and it is shooting fine. The thing I noticed was that the cams are not in the same relation to the limbs as each other. I hope that made sense. :eek: One cam is slightly more rotated than the other. So with the cables attached to the cams and not the limbs, how do you correct this?

The cables were made by Gibblet so they are quality cables. I double checked them and they are the same length. I counted the number of twists and both have the same number. The tiller top and bottom measures the same.

This is just confusing me. I will post some pics when I get home tonight.

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

you cannot indicate whether cams are in sync with each other without the bow being at full draw

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

Does the Defender have the timing dots on the side of the cam?

If the dots aren't the same you will have to do some twisting of the cables to get them there-if you want them the same.

It should shoot just fine if they are only off a little. I read on one forum (here?)that bowtech considered leaving the dots off the cam because they weren't that important.

I'd want them the same myself- that's just the way I am.

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

they considered leaving the dots off because it is virtually impossible to check the timing on a dual cam set up unless it is at full draw period no matter who the manufacturer is.
companys have been putting marks on cams for years and every one of those marks are pretty much useless.
dont matter if the dots are dead nuf=ts in line with one another it could still be out of time.
I recomend taking it to a pro shop and have them set the timing on the bow.
i cant express enough that the bow must be at full draw in order to correctly check the cam timing.

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

I thought the binaries mimicked each other since they weren't tied to the limbs so this wasn't near as much of a concern?

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

still does not change the fact that the cams must be in time with one another to get optimal preformance out of the bow

most dual cams top to bottom aremirror images of one another excluding cam and 1/2 designs one look at a top and bottom cam.5 design it is obvious that one does not mirror the other I remember when the cam and 1/2 first came out people were saying that there were no timing issues with this system and this system could not come out of time which could NOT be farther from the truth although it is called a cam and 1/2 it is still a 2 cam ststem and requires the cams to be in time with each other in order for the set up to work properly as for any 2 cam system this simple principle does not exclude any new 2 cam designs that has recently hit the market.

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

The way it was explained to me is that the binary design doesn't or won't go out of time because they are tied ONLY to each other and equal pressure basically keeps the binary cams in sync?

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

Steve:

There is a tool in my shop which I'm sure you've seen me use. It took me about 6 years to develop a good working unit that fits on a press. It performs 10 different bow test and adjustment functions with one of them being cam timing at full draw.;):D

Apple Archery is manufacturing the tool right now and it should be available soon.

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

It is a good system but it will still come out of timing dispite what any one says.

I have no doubt Len would have corrected me If I had been passing along incorect information
In fact I think he may have hinted around that the timing has to be checked at full draw

BTW Len I think that tool would be a nessessity for any one who shoots a 2 cam system.;):D:)

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

So is it true that the cams will stay in sync with one another,and still be out of time?

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

no that is false out of time means out of sync

most dual cams work independantly from one another because the harness is connected to the opposite limb of the bow when one harness is stretched longer than another this will cause one of thee cams to come out of time with the other which will require the stretched harness to be twisted back to its original length in order for the cams to be in time with each other

although the binary cams workstogether because the harnesses are connected to the cams instead of the limbs it is still a dual cam systemthis does not mean the harnesses and strings cannot stretch when one becomes longer this is going to throw the timing off which will require adjustments to be made in order to get thecams back in proper alignment with each other

what most people fail to realize is that a out of time cam has nothing to do with the configuration of the cams but has everything to do with the length of the strings and harnesses when one is even a fraction off it will throw the cams out of whack

I hope this explains what I am trying to point out about cam timing.

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

Timing and synchronization, as used in discussions about bows, are similar but different. Timing is the 'clocking' of any cam for optimization of efficiency/power. Synchronization is the adjustment of two cams to identical oroptimumtiming characteristics.

Now here is the glitch. Depending on the location of the nocking point, it is possible to have 'synchronized' but 'out of time' cams, or vice versa. The full draw issue is what I have found to be a critical element when discussing this subject. The desirable element is to get the 'package' working at its best.;)

Now keep in mind that a two cambow withthe split yoke system can throw a monkey wrench into efforts to achieve a timed and synchronized bow. That's a whole subject unto itself and the reason a lot of tournament archers bring their equipment to me.

Let me also say that this whole subject does not make any two cam bow something to avoid. New string materials and the advent of the binary cam system have made them much more desirable to a demanding customer base for many reasons.
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RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

Len, since we're talking about cam timing and such, I recently bought an '03 Patriot Dually (used) supposedly less than 50 shots through it and honestly from the looks of everything he's probably telling the truth. Anyway, when I first got it, the cams were definitely out of synch as there was definitely 2 "bumps" and felt like it had 2 valleys. Anyway, I took it to a local pro shop and even though I can't stand the guy's attitude, he's a hell of a bow mechanic. I asked him to tune it for me and get it paper tuned. Wel, I went and picked it up Tuesday and e told me that he couldn't get it to bullet hole when the cams were perfectly synchronized by his darw force mapper so he had to tune it with the limbs? I.E. the bottom limb is backed out about 3/4 of a turn more than the top one. I brought it home and it shot great.

Then here's where I messed up. I bought the bow with 29" modules on it but I shoot a 30" draw. When I got home, I swapped the modules out. Big mistake. My nock point and peep sight and timing were all out of whack again. I reset the nock point and peep sight and started working on the cams by twisting the cables. I got them to where they "feel" right and go out and begin shooting and such. After about 50 shots, I can feel the double bump coming back into the cams, so I go back in and have to let 3 twists out of the top to get ot to feel right again, but now my draw length feels too long. Did I do something wrong and does adding or removing twists in the cables affect draw length? I guess I'm gonna have to go drop another $50 to get it retuned now. [&o]One of WWAG's bowmender presses is looking beter & better all the time. I'm tired of this Bowmaster.

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

by adding twists to the harness you are in effect making the draw length longer
adding twists to the string will in effect make the draw shorter

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

I tok twists out of the cable going to the top cam and it now feels longer. Is it just me possibly?

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

this is just a theroy because I dont have the bow in front of me but what i think is happening is that one of the cams are spongy because one of the cams is not contacting the wall when the other cam is on the wall thus making the draw feel longer
does that make any sence to you.

sometimes these things can be complicated unless you are actually working on the bow
hopefully that makes some sence[8D]

RE: Binary Cam Timing?
 

First, Bigpapascout is correct about timing the bow at full draw, and that the binary cams can indeed be out of time. They are connected together and what the "slaved" means is that when one stops rotating, so will the other, where as a traditional 2 cam bow one will hit the stop and the other will continue to rotate until it hits it's stop, causing eratic nock travel at the critical end of the draw as the string continues to let out of only one cam. The binarys cams can be out of time, but the ill nock travel effects are minimized due to both cams stopping and one not being able to rotate independantly. It is a good idea and the 07's are much better than the previous versions as they load the axles closer to the center and do not exhibit the "lean" that previous ones do.

Now, on the 03 dually, there are 2 things that can cause the double hump you are feeling. One is out of time at full draw, the other is that the early Bowtechs needed to have a slight amount of induced "lean" by manipulating the yokes so that the cable falls into the groove on the cam smoothly -- if not, it can hit the side first then "jump" into the groove causing the double bump. Also, make sure you shoot the cables in. Ensure that the cables are not hitting the side of the track while you draw and adjust yokes 1/2 twist at a time until it fallin smoothly. Get it timed at full draw with YOU drawing the bow. The way you pressure the grip can have an affect on the timing. If the draw is not exactly as you want after this, adjust with twists in the string.

One other thing, when changing modules, ensure they are really seated when you tighten the screws -- there is enought play in the fit to tighten them and make them slightly off. This may have been what happened to you initially.