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Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

There is always going to be this debate over speed vs. loudness.

I try to minimize the things I can't control or estimate, it leaves room for error. When I draw back I want to be thinking about one thing, hitting where I am aiming, by having a fast set up I don't concern myself with aiming a little high or a little low, I put the dot on the deer & cut loose. I control the decision on when to shoot, i.e..... while deer is not suspicious or jittery, I can also control the fact that my arrow is going to get to that aiming point as quickly as possible. My brother is noise freak, so we did a little test.

With a high speed video camera from work & the annoying dog next door, I proceeded to put my target bag next to his kennel on my side of the fence. While he was just walking around & eating I would shoot, every time I shot he didn't look or react to the shot but he did react to the arrow hitting the target. When I shot while he was attentive & ears perked up he reacted to the bow. All shots were 30 yards @ 335 fps.

The exact same thing for my brothers Legacy, with all the fixens & heavy slow arrows, about 258 fps. He couldn’t believe the dog could hear his bow when he released, in fact I think he would have lied had we not had the tape.

PS. almost mist the target while making sure the video tape was recording.

Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.

Edited by - AB Bow Hunter on 11/11/2002 11:39:53

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

LOL! I can just imagine seeing AB Bowhunter and his brother strolling up to the neighbor's door with bows and arrows, a target bag and a video camera and tripod<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>. Knock Knock Knock.... Why hello Mister Wilson, Me and my brother would like to conduct a test with your dog.... If I knew you were going to do this I would have drove all the way to your house to watch<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>:)<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

It is funny you mentioned that, tonight @ work we did a viewing of the tape, you have to have a special player to watch it or I would send a copy to you.

While we were doing this it seemed perfectly sound, & had a damn good argument to settle. But you are correct, because when our wives found out about it they didn’t see the humor or the reasoning behind it. My brother almost let the cat out of the bag on my Bow Tech rebate she didn’t know about. He doesn’t think on his feet real well. I guess that’s why he shoots a slow telephone pole slinger.

My dad said,” that was about as bright as when you two used the garden hose as a snorkel in the pond.”

Quick story, I & my brother wanted to walk on the bottom of our family pond, only about 20’ deep. So we ran two garden hoses through a big piece of deck styrofoam. One end sticking out of the styrofoam & the other end went in our mouths’. We then proceeded to tie cinderblocks on rope & wrap them around our shoulders to keep us down, & the goggles went on. Worst part about it was when we got down in the water it was so muddy we couldn’t see anything. Keep in mind we were only 10 & 13.

Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

My curiosity is getting the best of me on this one!
How could you distinguish the fact he was reacting to the arrow hitting the target rather than the shot at 335fps?
Unless you had one helluva wide angle lens to cover the bow and the dog (at 30 yards) in the same frame<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> And even then , a slow motion video doesn't compare to actual speed and the dogs reaction time.
At 335fps @ 30 yards , thats roughly 4 thousands of a second from bow to target. My guess would be the dog reacted to the shot but his reaction time indicated he was reacting to the arrow hitting the target.
Or was it your point all along that a fast bow compensates for noise?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - bowfanatic on 11/12/2002 04:19:33

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

My brother was positioned to my left side & behind me, my target was just to the right or the dogs kennel. The video system we had was high speed video, which records more frames per second.

My point is more towards the fact that any animal that is on edge or jittery could reacted to the shot in time to string jump an arrow no matter how fast. In my mind it doesn’t matter what he was reacting to just the fact that when my arrow hit the target he had not moved his head, ears, tail or anything else, but while his ears were up & he was paying attention he would turn his head or start to hunker down a bit before the arrow hit the bag. He still would have had a hole in him. <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

Keep in min we are not scientist just two Joe’s with some expensive video equipment. The long & short of the story is, shoot @ an animal when it is relaxed. The speed of an arrow may help, but the trajectory is more important for me, so I am not in the position of guessing high or low.

In my opinion there is no bow that is quiet enough that a deer will not hear it inside 30 yrds, whether the deer reacts or not is anyone’s guess. In our test it didn’t matter for the beagle he didn’t move enough to get out of the way or drop down, he just started to react when the arrow hit the bag. . I would guess a deer moves quicker than a dog but I don’t know. But if a dog started to react before the arrow hit @ 30 yrds I would guess a deer would also.

The test only shows that animals will react to sound differently while in different modes, if a buck is busy chasing tail around, I could fall out of my tree stand climb back up draw & hit my mark. An exaggeration of course but you get what I am saying.

<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

A friend of mine shoots in his backyard. He's an NFAA national champ in barebow and practices at 60 yards. Without getting too detailed, his dog reacted to the arrow flight (not the bow or the target).

I learned alot about bow noise when I bought a house with a basement and concrete walls. The sound bounces off the walls like you cannot imagine. My hunting bow is quiet and my target bow is a little bit louder when fired outside. I shot both in my basement and was shocked at how loud both bows were. After adding limb savers to both bows I can tell you truthfully ... no matter how quiet you think your bow is - add limb savers.

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

I played the speed game back in the 80's, back when we had no restrictions on poundage or arrow weights for 3D. We were regularly shooting setups over 85lbs, and shooting 210 grain arrows at over 340fps. We even had "fastest bow" contests pushing speeds to around 425fps. Parts were flying everywhere each weekend.What a great time.(Yes, we were retarded. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) Thankfully the IBO put a stop to that nonsense with their 5g per lb ruling and max poundage of 80lbs before someone got killed.

Nowadays the only ones that are still getting their jollies with the speed game are ones that really do not know any better IMO. To get high speed, you must give up something for it, usually forgiveness. While it's great fun to see your bow go faster through a chrono than your buddies', realistically if the bow does over 280 it is suitable for 3D, and plenty fast enough to take game. Most every bow manufactured today can realistically generate those types of speeds. Speed will always continue to increase and we should accept it, but I think everyone is figuring out that it doesn't matter "how fast you go past" when pushing the envelope, and that is usually what happens when you shoot the sub 6" brace height "rat traps" that are very critical of any form errors, and currently the only geometries that will "push the envelope". Even Bowtech, the current masters of the speed game,(and really the only ones left who care about it-- why I don't know---marketing I guess) are now increasing brace heights and ATA lengths on their speediest bows for more forgiveness. Gotta walk before you can run.

Bottom line is that it is fun to "play" with the speed, but you have to be able to control it and keep the noise level down if you want to hunt and be as accurate as you can be at our sport. If you want to play the 3D game (the only other reason one would ever need or want the speed) the noise level doesn't really matter, and it is a good way to distract your competition!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Back when we were shooting those insane weights and arrows out of our cast riser bows, everyone not shooting would normally be taking cover behind something "just in case" anyway, and one could definately hear a bow go off within a hundred yards or so!(sometimes much further!) <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 10:01:51

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Even Bowtech, the current masters of the speed game,(and really the only ones left who care about it-- why I don't know---marketing I guess) are now increasing brace heights and ATA lengths on their speediest bows for more forgiveness. Gotta walk before you can run.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

No offense, but I don't know why the BowTechs "erk" you so bad but I do know you throw a little elbow into the ribcage every chance you get(well OK I understand because Mattews does me the same way<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>). That being said you might as well get geared up for the BowTechs being around for a while. I have one question though. At what point in your transition from the speed game of the 80's to the PW12 of today did speed become a bad thing. I mean as long as you don't sacrifice shootabilty(and Bowtech doesn't). If you have two bows that are almost identical in A to A length, brace heigth, both have good transitions into the draw force curve, and neither try to rip your arm off when you creep, what makes the faster of the two bows inferior. Which basically is all Bowtech is doing. BowTech is basically saying hey we can make a bow just as smooth as yours and just as shootable as yours BUT we'll throw in an extra 15fps to boot. If all the shootable characteristics are there then what's wrong with throwing in some speed to go along with it?

PS I don't know what kind of setups everyone else uses but I am barely cracking 280's with my Patriot at 29.5 inches and 70lbs with a 390-400 gr. arrow and a string loop, kisser button, and string whispers. I have yet to shoot anything other than a BowTech that will crack the 280's for me with this same arrow and string configuration. I can say from shooting the majority of the other bows out there that it simply isn't realizable without a bow that will shoot 315-320 IBO(through the chrono). I personally would want to shoot an arrow that is any lighter than the one I currently shoot.

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

Edited by - silentassassin on 11/15/2002 15:13:09

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I played the speed game back in the 80's, back when we had no restrictions on poundage or arrow weights for 3D<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

PW, you are starting to sound like an old Grandpa, LOL..."Back when I was a kid, we didn't have no fancy shmancy carbon arrows...we had sticks..yeah sticks I found in the yard..by myself! I picked up sticks all damn day and night..in th SNOW! And we didn't have a lathe..we whittled 'em down ourselves...almost cut my finger off one time...Did I ever tell ya 'bout that? etc. etc.. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Even Bowtech, the current masters of the speed game,(and really the only ones left who care about it-- why I don't know---marketing I guess) are now increasing brace heights and ATA lengths on their speediest bows for more forgiveness. Gotta walk before you can run.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

With all due respect, your comment re: Bowtech is BS.Bowtech has had fairly high to quite high brace models since their inception. The Mighty Mite option one and two at 7.25 and 8.25" respectively,the Stalker at 7.75" , the Extreme Solo & G3 option two at 7", etc. just for the Y2K model year (their first). Bowtech has pretty much always given a choice between a higher and lower brace height. So now they raise brace heights and speeds and that's BAD? Seems to me like that's quite an improvement. Something no-one else is doing. The other manufacturers fastest models still are using 6" brace heights. When will people be happy? And if the increased speed DOES bug someone, there are things out there on the market called heavier arrows.

I disagree re: who is marketing speed. Look at just about everyone out there who advertises. Speeds are plastered all over the advertising. PSE was promoting their new 6" brace speedbow all of last year. Hoyt's sub 6.75" CyberTec, Martins Cougar XRG at 6 & 5/8", etc... Mathews has higher brace bows yes, but the ads post high speeds. Fact is,like it or not, speed sells (and it's beneficial too if used properly!). And everyone who is in a Marketing department, regardless of company,realizes that. If no-one else besides Bowtech cared about speed,why do they advertise speed ratings? Why would all of these manufacturers make bows that are faster? why not make all bows shoot the same speed? You seem to alway single out Bowtech for this, and I'm not sure what you're beef is with them (and you mention them often enough by name to make your feelings clear..And yep, I'm defending Bowtech here because I happen to like them, as well as stating general opinion regardless of manufacturer), but the facts are that EVERYONE does it barring a few small companies who do little to no advertising.

As I said on another thread recently, people need to start thinking out of the box. I mean that respectfully too.

Thinking out of the box tells me that I can now shoot less draw weight with a faster bow and generate as much or better energy for hunting than shooting a higher poundage slower model. Thinking outside the box makes me realize I can shoot heavier arrows at better speeds, for flatter trajectory (but not neccessarily laser-flat) and better energy as well, If I want to keep poundage the same.

I don't care what name is on the limbs. Facts are: times change, and while accuracy will always be king of the hill (regardless of what archery past-time you engage in) facts are also that back in the early to mid 90's has no bearing on what faster models are like today. That's apples and oranges. I shot many of those bows too. I shoot the fast ones of today from various companies..No comparison.

I realize everyone has their opinion, and I hope you know I respect yours, but I do not understand some of the blanket statements, singling out, and vast generalizations you are making here (on the boards in general) lately. Surely after all of your experience in archery you have learned that there are always exceptions to the rule, and nothing is ever absolute?

JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

JeffB-

Well now. It's come to this I see, a "facing off" of the "youngster" and the "old Grandpa". (as you put it) I knew that this would eventually happen what with the influx of "Bowtech followers" you seemingly need to try and impress here on the boards, especially when any remark made towards your beloved Bowtech may be taken out of context as detrimental in any way. Oh well, At least you are loyal.....

But---

Let me make one thing clear--- I am not all THAT old, and know that altho I respect your opinions normally, that you have no higher knowledge in ANY Archery category than I unless you have over 35 years experience, and I absolutely take offense with anyone calling any of my comments "BS". You seriously want to insinuate that I am a liar on a public messageboard? You may want to re-think that position. Take a few minutes and really THINK about that. I don't think you have enough technical qualifications to try and talk DOWN to me Jeff,(no matter how many "followers" you gain here) and I do take serious offense to that. You certainly do not want to bash heads with me archery-wise (or any other wise for that matter) for at least another 10 years or so IMO, and I figure you owe me an apology for insinuating that I am a liar. Everyone can state an opinion, and altho you may prove some people wrong, have no right to insinuate that anyone is a liar or tell them their statements are "BS". You also got my post way out of context, I could care less if we have bows that reach 500FPS, and will welcome them when and if we get there, however I do not think John Q Public needs to be force-fed all of the garbage about "how accurate" a 350fps bow with a 5.25" (OK, now 5.5) is when it certainly is somewhat of a "stretch". (Don't forget, I shoot all of these bows too. When I can get out of my "wheelchair". <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>)

I do not care what name is out there on these individual bows. I pick on any of them if I feel they deserve it. Heck, it could even be a Horizon instead of Bowtech as they are basically the same design Kev used when with them! (Then maybe you wouldn't be so defensive?) Or it could be a PSE, Mathews, Hoyt, (sorry Frank) yes, even a Merlin!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Doesn't matter, I am going to call it as I see it, based exclusively on my experiences over the past few decades. I don't pull punches and sugar-coat things, if you cannot handle that, well maybe you're in the wrong sport, sport! Really, just because it has the name Bowtech on it is a non-issue. They are the only ones left that REALLY focus on speed now tho.(and put ads in magazines stating so!) Most everyone else has just settled into their progression, without all of the hoopla. Many do not even post IBO speed rating anymore. I played the speed game, yes, been there and done that, and regardless of whether it was "back then" or now, it is all the same, and I am simply trying to "clue people in" on the real deal of the game. This year it's 350, three years from now,(maybe less) it'll be 400. Then 450. Then 500. It's a never-ending cycle, so why not just shoot the bows that are forgiving and wait for the industry to catch up material and tech-wise instead of with lower brace heights and radical cams and prestressed limbs? You'll like the way you shoot much better if you do, I guarantee it. Anyone that states they can shoot as well with a 5.5" bow as they can with a 7.5" bow cannot shoot very well IMO because they cannot tell the difference! (and won't shoot any better if they conmtinue with the 5.5, either) Better archers can tell immediately, but they also can control it much better also. Like I said, that is why the most popular hunting bows have over a 7" brace height.

As stated, Bowtech has realized this also, and has deepened their brace heights on their "speediest" bows. That was not a detrimental comment by any means, but an accolaide! Nuff said on that.

I am not aware of any statements made lately by myself that would be cause for "undue alarm" or justification for insinuating that I am a liar and my comments are "BS".

I never stated that speed in itself was BAD. It will always increase, but it needs to do so with forgiving designs, not "rat-traps". I stated that giving up forgiveness for raw speed is BAD. And, I also stated that Bowtech has realized this and has taken steps to increase the brace on the BK2 to help with such forgiveness. This is a bash on the emphasis on speed, not any manufacturer! You want me to bash a manufacturer, well lets talk about some other brands, hehe!

You guys simply read too much into my posts in your attempts to make yourselves look smarter while defending your loyalties, trying to "knock off the grandpa". You guys can learn from us "grandpa's" like Len, Field 14, Arthur P, myself, and others, and should welcome that knowledge, not rebel against it simply because it doesn't fit your personal agenda or loyalties! It's sad but these are the reasons so many other great techs no longer post. We've paid our dues, and you up and coming guys have not yet earned the right to be "calling out" any of us, no matter how much you "think" you know. Calling it as I see it, Pinwheel 12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 17:41:33

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
JeffB-

Well now. It's come to this I see, a "facing off" of the "youngster" and the "old Grandpa". (as you put it) I knew that this would eventually happen what with the influx of "Bowtech followers" you seemingly need to try and impress here on the boards, especially when any remark made towards your beloved Bowtech may be taken out of context as detrimental in any way. Oh well, At least you are loyal.....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I don't see it as face off.I see your comments regarding Bowtech uneccessary, ignorant and rather blatant lately. Considering another poster basically typed the same thing before I even finished mine, might be a hint that I am not the only one who feels the same way. I doubt quite seriously you (or anyone else) would refrain from "calling me out" were I to make a few jabs at your particular fave brand whenever the chance arrives.

I suggest you check out the "smiley, and wink" I put at the end of the post. It seems we are a bit touchy, eh? I need impress no-one (except the ladies) nor do I try to. I like to talk about archery,and try to remain positive while disucssing all facets, sharing what I do know (which ain't much), and try to learn about things I do not. You (lately) seem to put down anything that is not your personal favorite, whereas I admit my bias( I like Bowtech if no-one else here noticed). I do not have or feel the need to be part of any "clique", however it seems you quite strongly feel that being part of one is a bad thing, and try to avoid being pigeon-holed at any cost. I'm curious if you would feel the same if many more of the posters here shot "your" particular brand? Then that would be OK?

I nowhere insinuated you are a "liar" unless you refer to my farcical "grandpa" post (in that it's a common thing for our elders to exaggerate stuff). If that is the case YOU are the one who took things out of context. Quite a ways, I might add.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I played the speed game, yes, been there and done that, and regardless of whether it was "back then" or now, it is all the same,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I firmly disagree..it IS different in that you admittedly overstressed and abused equipment to shoot speeds it they were NOT designed to handle. Bows today are engineered to purr along (at least for awhile) at those speeds, and are built to better tolerances by far..even "mediocre" quality bows.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>and I am simply trying to "clue people in" on the real deal of the game..<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> As to the way it was 15 years ago? or today? That's what I am getting at. Accuracy is where it's at as I said.However, equipment is also improving to where accuracy and speed are not mutually exclusive, as you often imply in your "how fast it goes past" statement. If I can shoot the same average size group at 280 FPS as I can at 240 I don't see this as a problem. The numbers do not matter.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Anyone that states they can shoot as well with a 5.5" bow as they can with a 7.5" bow cannot shoot very well IMO because they cannot tell the difference!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Who said anything about that? I think we all here know that. In this case Bowtech is producing a faster bow with a brace height you reccomend. Where is the problem here? I know some guys who are great shots with their ultra low brace equipment and oblivious to what brace height is. A guy at my local range shoots a Hoyt "Smoke". He's not very technically oriented as far as archery equipment. He also beats the pants off most of the guys who shoot with him!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Like I said, that is why the most popular hunting bows have over a 7" brace height.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Absolutely I agree. So where is the problem? the increased speed? If the brace height is there, then what's your beef?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>As stated, Bowtech has realized this also, and has deepened their brace heights on their "speediest" bows. That was not a detrimental comment by any means, but an accolaide! Nuff said on that.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Didn't sound like it to me... or was your comment just referring to the marketing as a bad thing? I don't understand your direction here..I see as many IBO speeds advertised these days as I ever have.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> stated that speed in itself was BAD. It will always increase, but it needs to do so with forgiving designs, not "rat-traps". I stated that giving up forgiveness for raw speed is BAD. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> And I agree in a general sense as well, but that's the kind of blanket staement I'm talking about. Several posters have commented (including myself) how well their BKII Op2's and P38DC's shoot, compared to many bows with more "forgiving" features. Seems to me that it might be an "exception to the rule", do you concur? Also see my example above about the guy who shoots the Hoyt Smoke.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>nt me to bash a manufacturer, well lets talk about some other brands, hehe!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Oooohhh... Let's!!! You pick first! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>You guys simply read too much into my posts in your attempts to make yourselves look smarter while defending your loyalties, trying to "knock off the grandpa".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Again, this has nothing to do with that...nor is anyone (at least I) trying to "knock off grandpa". I'm just curious why with someone with your experience seems to be so stubborn about stuff that might well have changed for the better..it's not just speed or Bowtech...I've seen you comment in a "my way or the highway" manner re: drop away rests...or the obvious: dual cammers. I'm always willing to be positive and look at the best of each bow manufacturer, design, or accessory manufacturer.When you were on Bowtech's staff not that long ago, you seemed very positive about them. I'm just wondering if they did something to piss you off? or vice-versa? I'm serious here. Because in my web wanderings I have seen several older posts (search on the bowsite for example) where you seemed very enthusiastic about them.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>can learn from us "grandpa's" like Len, Field 14, Arthur P, myself, and others, and should welcome that knowledge<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Indeed I still do, and did! But It also makes me upset when many of the "old timers" (as you said.. or anyone else for that matter) becomes unable to accept anything "new", by giving us a buttload of reasoning that applied 15, or 30 , or 45 years ago, but MAY or MAY NOT apply today. Some old timers swear carbon arrows suck...they base their experience on the days of old..carbons are HUGELY improved today.Or Drop away rests for example. I've seen you "down" on them in several threads. Yep Keith Barner had one out ages ago and probably before him there was some others..and yep..it was not too good of a design..especially for hunting. But his new one IS good. I realize you question their need, assuming properly tuned shooter and equipment..AS DID I..but I decided to give one a try and see if they had changed in 10 years. And I'm very happy I did, it's a nice rest, and even with a moderately decent "shooter tune" (me) and a good "equpment tune" (my bow), I can see some added forgiveness. That's a plus. we all have our likes and dislikes..but these are the sort of "blanket statemenst" I'm seeing from you recently. Is it "alarming"..no...But I also don't remember you being so "my way or the highway" recently.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It's sad but these are the reasons so many other great techs no longer post<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Diversity and "rebellion" bring change. Sometimes it's good, sometimes bad.Some folks cannot deal with change (I usually am "change resistant") I think the real reason many of the great techs don't post because there are alot of closed-minded people on many boards(The Bowsite in particular) who are not willing to listen (which I think most here are)..That works both ways though, and listening and blindly folowing are two different things. Offering a fresh or different perspective is a good thing for all parties involved, it's how we learn. My 3 year old son teaches me new things everyday, and I've got 30 more years of experience on him. Same with Archery. I've seen kids who can whip the pants off guys who have been shooting for decades. I also know 18 year old kids who can strip a bow and put it back together alot faster than I can (and I've done my share). It's not the quantity of experience, it's the quality. I'm willing to learn all I can from anybody, but I'm also willing to "call out" a "blanket statement" that I just don't agree with based on my personal experience. My "BS" statement was regarding your implication that Bowtech somehow all of a sudden decided a higher brace height was good. I simply pointed out you were wrong and that they had been building higher brace bows since the beginning (when you were on staff, I might add). If that offends you or makes you think I'm calling you a liar, then that is your perogative, but I think you are being overly defensive and rash.

JeffB

Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 19:23:02

Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 19:23:57

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

Now you're calling my posts regarding Bowtechs as "unnecessary, Ignorant, and blatant"! C'mon now! "Touchy" only to those that have little respect for others, yes! You talk alot, but you aren't saying anything other than reverting to thinking I am "Ignornant", "touchy", and all my comments lately are "BS". Just general tactics to try and make me look less credible, nice try. Might work with your 3yr old son, but who's gonna believe that here?

Maybe simply because I commented twice on the Bowtechs recently? (no-one reads my other posts?) Now all of a sudden I'm "rash"? I don't think so. Silent Assassin took my previous post out of context also, maybe it looked that way even, but I really have no arguement with Bowtechs' bows themselves. I see Kevin even had to come out of the woodwork to try and "smooth over" some of the "groupie" comments made on another board. Bet he loves that, too...

I spoke highly of the Bowtechs when they first hit the scene, and to clarify still feel they are a nice bow, as good as most out there even, but certainly not the "best of class". They still have a ways to go to get to that point, IMO. (My opinion, everyone has their preferences.)

It doesn't matter what you or I think either, each person has to decide what he/she likes, and if anyone is having a "my way or the highway" attitude lately, it's you with your brand loyalty, Jeff!

The rest of the babble I'm not even going to bother responding to because it's simply a waste of my time.

It's obvious that you feel you did nothing wrong by telling me you think I'm ignorant, touchy, and full of BS, but I still feel as tho you've "crossed the line" with me. I can safely say that I am thoroughly sane,(just had a physical last week as a matter of fact!) and will always be here to answer questions, whether you like me and my "old ways" here or not.(don't forget that I test all new stuff also, and therefore am not "fossilized" into thinking new stuff is no good, only when it warrants a "thumbs down".) If that entails "telling it like it is" about ANY equipment I feel is not worthy,(or giving the "thumbs up" when I feel it is, read the Diamond thread by Rangeball yet?) then so be it.

Unfortunately my respect for you as an upcoming tech has diminished greatly with your recent attacks, just as whatever I seem to have done to you has pissed you off also. I have never once "bashed" or "called out" a tech that had more expereince or knowledge than I, it's an "unwritten rule" of respect. However I did no namecalling towards you, therefore I still feel it is not me that needs to step forward and apologize in this case.

Sure, there are kids that can whip the pants off of us older guys as far as shooting goes, younger eyes, fire of determination and will to succeed (and make money and fame!)go a long way. But there isn't a one of them that knows more about the "entire package" than us older guys who have been around the sport many, many years, or how to tune correctly from MEMORY a bunch of different setups without once shooting it through paper, and when we do it comes out perfect most every time. Some things you just can't read about, and can't learn in a few short years. It takes alot of time and dedication of the entire sport to learn most of it, and the rest we pick up on a daily basis, even after 30, 40, or even 50 years, it never stops. THAT is the difference between "Pro Shooters" and "Pro Archers".

That's it for the speech on this end. Pinwheel 12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/15/2002 20:38:12

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

It's not the quantity of experience, it's the quality.

JeffB

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

So very true!!!<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

I will make my replies here and that is all I have to say on the matter as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Now you're calling my posts regarding Bowtechs as "unnecessary, Ignorant, and blatant"! C'mon now! "Touchy" only to those that have little respect for others, yes! You talk alot, but you aren't saying anything other than reverting to thinking I am "Ignornant", "touchy", and all my comments lately are "BS". Just general tactics to try and make me look less credible, nice try. Might work with your daughter, but who's gonna believe that here?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I certainly hope the daughter comment was in a general sense, otherwise it sure DOES hurt YOUR credibilty as "stand up" person, and is certainly a tactic lower than any you accuse ME of.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt due to the medium by which we are communicating and asume you meant no malice towards a member of my family.

I nowhere said "all your comments" other than "all your comments regarding Bowtech lately". Big difference. Please read what I said. Also the "touchy" comment was re: the "granpa" part of my post i.e "touchy" re: your age. Again please read what I posted.

I am not trying to discredit you, hoenstly I could care less about your credibility or lack thereof... though seemingly you feel threatened for some reason, since I questioned some of your logic.I think you discredit yourself at times preaching the evils of being "loyal" when you yourself push your fave brand every chance you get. I simply am curious as to why you feel the need to jab and poke at Bowtech lately. It's been going on for awhile. Not just here on this thread. Perhaps you don't "read" it that way, but I do, as have others.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Now all of a sudden I'm "rash"? I don't think so.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Seeing how you flew off the handle, demanding an apology re: a farcical post (and was labeled as such with the aformentioned wink, smile, etc), yes. In my book that is rash.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but I really have no arguement with Bowtechs' bows themselves.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> So the company or some other factor is the problem? It's very obvious that there is some "bad blood" somewhere. Hey, if it's a personal thing or a business thing, just say so, I respect that, but don't expect people to just go along with it, and when someone "calls you out" don't play Mr. Innocent.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I see Kevin even had to come out of the woodwork to try and "smooth over" some of the "groupie" comments made on another board. Bet he loves that, too...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> So when you talk up how great your preferred brand is that's OK? So because Sag (no offense Sag, jut using you as an example) or someone else here likes your fave brand and talks them up they are not a "groupie"? But I and my "band of merry men" are? Double standard.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I spoke highly of the Bowtechs when they first hit the scene, and to clarify still feel they are a nice bow, as good as most out there even, but certainly not the "best of class". They still have a ways to go to get to that point, IMO. (My opinion, everyone has their preferences.)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Absolutely. One can express an opinion though without being derogatory on more than one occasion when the chance presents itself.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It doesn't matter what you or I think either, each person has to decide what he/she likes, and if anyone is having a "my way or the highway" attitude lately, it's you with your brand loyalty, Jeff!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>. Again, so as long as I'm loyal to Bowtech, that's no good...but if you are loyal to your fave brand, that's OK? I won't even go into the business aspect here. I'd like to say that of the 12 or so bows I bought last (actually this) year, only 3 were Bowtechs. Of the reports I did, it was split. 3 Bowtechs..3 other brands (Hoyt, Mathews, and HCA). While my loyalty may be with Bowtech and I enjoy "preaching the word", I'm not ignorant enough to believe that MY fave is best for everyone. I also don't bash or jab at other companies unless I make it clear I'm "joking" (the smiley winky thing again). I nearly always, if not absolutely always make a fair post regarding equipment...I specify positives and negatives.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The rest of the babble I'm not even going to bother responding to because it's simply a waste of my time.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Precisely the point I was trying to make regarding the "great techs" and listening goes both ways. You decline to debate any of my legitimate questions regarding your "stance" on technical matters..writing it off as "babble". You do more to discredit yourself with that statement.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>It's obvious that you feel you did nothing wrong by telling me you think I'm ignorant, touchy, and full of BS,<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

sigh..Again...if you had read my post,you would see those comments were regarding your attitude about Bowtech lately or your overreaction to the "grandpa thing" Not YOU in a general sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> but I still feel as tho you've "crossed the line" with me. I can safely say that I am thoroughly sane,(just had a physical last week as a matter of fact!)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> .

I'm sorry you feel that way. And who here questioned your Sanity? What the hell has that got to do with anything?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>and will always be here to answer questions, whether you like me and my "old ways" here or not<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Oh boy..where are the violins?...Pinwheel..I don't want you to stop posting here, nor does anyone else. You are a valuable resource, but If you wanna be so strong willed and forceful with your opinions, you better be ready and willing to take some heat back. I like you...never said I did not. I just question and disagree with your logic/thought process at times, and when I felt you were making unfair and/or ignorant statements regarding Bowtech and asked you why point-blank, you got all "high and mighty" about lack of respect and demanding an apology. Yeesh.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>(don't forget that I test all new stuff also, and therefore am not "fossilized" into thinking new stuff is no good, only when it warrants a "thumbs down".)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> So have you been shooting say a BKII OP2 or P38DC or PAT, or whatever for awhile? What are you basing your opinion on? The speedbows of yesteryear? Do you still sell Bowtech? do you carry Hoyt? PSE? What brands do you sell in your shop besides your personal "faves", your website does not specify.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If that entails "telling it like it is" about ANY equipment I feel is not worthy,(or giving the "thumbs up" when I feel it is, read the Diamond thread by Rangeball yet?) then so be it.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Good. Except this is where out philosophies differ: You seem to be a "it's great", or "it's crap" guy (thumbs up, thumbs down). I'm a "may be crap for me, but gold for the next guy that tries it" kinda guy. Ahh, and you mean the thread that continued on in another thread where the poster in question decided he did not like the new bows and decided to stay with his 6 year old bow? Then yes, I read that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Unfortunately my respect for you as an upcoming tech has diminished greatly with your recent attacks<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well gosh,...I didn't/don't even consider myself an up and coming tech. Just a guy who buys a lot of bows,and fools around with archery equipment cause he likes too. I have no desire or need to be remembered as a Bow Tech (hee hee..Bow Tech). I'm not here to gain a following or make a buck. I'm here to discuss archery.I would liek to note I find curious you now judge my "value" as a tech because of an argument???..as if now, because we do not agree, and I have apparently insulted you, that somehow now I know less than I did before? LOL!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>just as whatever I seem to have done to you has pissed you off also<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Piss me off..Yup that's a fair statement,though only mildly, and I've explained why numerous times. At the same time though, I don't hold a grudge, stay mad, or consider people to have "crossed my line"...ESPECIALLY on the medium of the internet. I'm actually quite a fun person to be around ..agreeable, respectful, and I like to laugh, so I'm told at least.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have never once "bashed" or "called out" a tech that had more expereince or knowledge than I, it's an "unwritten rule" of respect.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> I find it disrespectful for a professional in the industry to needle away at a manufacturer (or whatever else) whenever the opportunity presents itself.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>However I did no namecalling towards you, therefore I still feel it is not me that needs to step forward and apologize in this case<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Show me where an honest case of name-calling was in my posts, and I'll be happy to apologize for that. The winky smiley Grandpa thing does not count. It's quite common knowledge what those symbols mean (and you use them yourself quite often). If you took that as offensive, then there seems to be a disconnect on your end.

In addition calling your statements ignorant, is not namecalling either. One can make a statement that is ignorant, without being labeled as an ignorant person.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Sure, there are kids that can whip the pants off of us older guys as far as shooting goes, younger eyes, fire of determination and will to succeed (and make money and fame!)go a long way. But there isn't a one of them that knows more about the "entire package" than us older guys who have been around the sport many, many years, or how to tune correctly from MEMORY a bunch of different setups without once shooting it through paper, and when we do it comes out perfect most every time. Some things you just can't read about, and can't learn in a few short years. It takes alot of time and dedication of the entire sport to learn most of it, and the rest we pick up on a daily basis, even after 30, 40, or even 50 years, it never stops. THAT is the difference between "Pro Shooters" and "Pro Archers".<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

And I realize that. But that does not mean things will not and do not change. Many of those little tweaks and fixes and other tidbits of knowledge go out of vogue and memory because of lack of need as things improve. Seems to me from your statements sometimes you feel or at least give off a strong message at times that you cannot learn (or maybe choose not to) from anyone who you do not consider equal to or above you in "tech" knowledge or experience. I disagree. In MY opinion the ability to listen, absorb and learn from anyone or any source is a required trait of a true professional, regardless of industry or vocation.

JeffB

Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 22:33:21

Edited by - JeffB on 11/15/2002 22:36:02

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

I WOULD like to apologize to the moderators, the originator of this thread and anyone else I might have offended by taking this way off topic and into a realm inappropriate for these boards.

JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

Gee I hope JeffB and PW12 can kiss and make up.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

It might time for a group hugg and a cold shower to cool off a little guys.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Aussie by birth Texan by choice

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

OK, I am going to post now & I hope nobody hollers at me.<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I went to my local pro shop today to pick up my new arrows. The guys @ the shop wanted me to shoot my BK II for a guy who was looking to buy one, so I did. He had me shoot @ the 20 yard target, 30 yard target & 40 yard target. I hit inside the 12 ring on 20 & 30, inside the 10 ring on the 40 yard shot. I think he was surprised, because he knows I haven’t been shooting long. He then had me shoot @ numerous targets for the 3D shoot. I hit all of them in the kill zone some better than others.

End of story is, he invited me up to their Tuesday & Thursday night 3D league. I am new to the sport & really only planned on hunting. My entire setup is camoed out, BK II (opp 2) & other equipment; will the guys @ this 3D shoot be laughing @ me because I am so new & shooting a hunting bow setup, I do have a Sure Loc sight & ATC scope on it?

I know one thing, I can hit inside the 10 ring @ 40 yards, & inside the 12 ring inside 30 yards. That isn’t real impressive probably, but for someone who has only been shooting a month or so I am very happy. I believe it is in large part due to the equipment I am using, IE…. BK II. My brother has the Mathews Legacy, he is taking the slow silent approach, IE big BH & heavier arrows, around 250 fps. I can shoot the daylights out of him.

I bet my neighbors are getting pissed, when I get home from afternoon shift I set a hanging light in my driveway by my target & stand in my garage & shoot. When my arrow hits the target it is kind of loud. I GOT IT BAD!!!!!!

<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

AB Bowhunter, if "you got it bad" now I'm here to tell you that it can get worse with each passing year. Archery is a very passionate sport as you can read in previous posts<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>. Enjoy!

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

I generally shoot for about 30 minutes whe I get home then fall prey to the Hunting.Net board for about 2 hours. These 3D shoots could be the straw that breaks my back with the wife.

This board is the greatest, it helps out us new guys more than you can imagine. thanks everyone!

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Good judgment comes from years of bad judgment.

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

Jeff-

After a good nights' sleep I'm sitting here reading back through these posts over a cup of coffee, and altho I did notice some "smiley faces" in the first post, (and know what they stand for) the undercurrent carried by your post was at least as discrediting and malicious as any post I have ever made on any product, whether intentional or not, I "caught the drift". I can safely say those issues are a "wash" if looking at it from that perspective.

I still believe that you have no right to say that I or any of my comments are "ignorant" or "BS",especially with my overall technical experience in this industry. If you want to debate something, fine, but don't try to degrade someone simply because you feel you have a case. I have no problem civilly discussing anything with anyone, but namecalling I gave up back in the 3rd grade. My posts may not be in line with everyones' opinions at all times; but they are far from "ignorant".

Everyone has their personal "faves" as you call it, and like you and everyone else of course I'm going to push what I feel is the best bow going. Like you, I come to these conclusions on what is best by feel, shootability, construction, attention to detail, and customer service. The only difference here is that I have been doing it for many years while in the business, and have a "trained eye" if you will for things that most average people will not pick up on. (I have to, it's my livlihood!) Most of the time I find that if a bow or other equipment that is "subpar" doesn't make the grade, it is due to lack of foresight in the R&D dept. Yes, I feel some things are "crap", but realistically I feel more things are designs that simply will not be around long. "Fads" and "trends" come and go like the wind, I've seen many go by the boards, and will see many more. My comments on solocams, dropaways, and other such items are simply items I look at from a technical standpoint that in my mind will not make it due to fallicies within the design. Solocams for instance are trancending towards a "hybrid" nature now, after only 10 years since "rebirth". I first called the "conventional solo" a "fad" way back in 1994. Wrong? I don't think so. I still feel it will disappear, marketing and advertising has just made it last a little longer.

I see you are still trying to discredit me by insinuating that the poster who went and checked out a Diamond and then stayed with his 6 year old bow decided to do so because the Diamonds are inferior along with my recommendations? Again, I have to disagree with you. Both the Diamond bows and my views on them are worth noting, altho a small company, Diamond makes a quality bow. Who's dicrediting now?

I have shot most of the newer Bowtech bows, and can readily order most any bow on the market for resale. I am currently on Merlins' factory staff and "push" them and that is no secret, but I sell many other brands as well, seeing as I own TWO archery businesses. Fill out a request form on the Pinwheel Products site for anything you'd like a quote on. (Mathews, Hoyt, Bowtech, and Parker do not allow internet sales however, sorry)

My comment on the "groupie" thing was based on when you have to have the co-owner and master Tech come out from behind the desk and straighten out comments made by their followers, (and say so!) then those posters may want to do a little more technical research or think twice before they just go in and post purely based on loyalty/ emotion.

And, we all learn everyday, from everyone. Again I must correct your statements. I learn something, some tidbit, from most everyone I meet or speak with-- yes, Jeff, even you! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> I gave you a "tech" label because you are the one going around obviously thinking you are one and playing the part, writing out these long "bow reports" and answering everyones' questions on the Bowtechs. Now you state you are just doing it "for fun", "a guy who buys alot of bows, and fools around with equipment because he likes to", and if so, don't you think you could be passing on incorrect info if you are not connected to the industry and KNOW "what is what" with the bows you "test"? I never stated that you "know less", only that my respect for your posting skills has diminshed. If you don't want the title and responsibility that goes along with it, then don't bother with it, simple as that. (You do seem to like the limelight, however) You do not see Emery Loiselle or Norb Mullaney or Bill Winke or Lou Milanesi (sp?) or any other "tester-or-tech" calling anything or anyone "ignornant" or "BS". That is my point. If I choose to post about a product that I honestly feel is inferior, I will always give examples or technical research to back it up. I don't "generalize" unless warranted, and I do not call anyone or any manufacturer a derogatory name unless provoked to do so.

The bottom line here is that if you(or anyone else) wants to debate an issue within our sport, then please do it with civility and respect for others. I state my thoughts on products just as you and everyone else does, but unlike you this sport is my life and livlihood, and I think that due to that and the fact that I have been in the Archery industry for over 30 years now on a daily basis that I have a pretty good handle on things within it. Unfortunately I lately find myself butting heads with those who are into the sport for no more than a hobby or "for fun", thinking they can teach "grandpa tech" a thing or two. (the internet makes everyone an expert! All of us true "techs" have seen this progression develop for the past few years, and is why lots of them do not post anymore) Overall,this is not likely, even tho I may gain a tidbit here and there.

On my end I will try not to make any derogatory statements on any companies' equipment from now on to keep peace. They are all just great, solocams are heaven, split limbs are awesome, the combination of the two even better, dropaway rests are the best things since toast, and sub 6" brace height bows are VERY accurate. How's that for starters? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Sheesh.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Pinwheel 12

Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 11/16/2002 06:54:35

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Gee I hope JeffB and PW12 can kiss and make up.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

It might time for a group hugg and a cold shower to cool off a little guys.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Aussie by birth Texan by choice
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In case you didn't see it Ausie-guy it's not a group hug. We're "BowTech groupies" therefore it will have to be a groupie hug...FWIW, That statement (as well as some others)offends me big time...

I'm running short on time right now but I'm gonna add my 2 cents later...I've got a few questions and comments that have been eating at me for awhile...

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

Bowtechshooter-

Pat, of course you are "Bowtech groupies". What else would you be? Merlin shooters are "groupies", Mathews shooters are "groupies", etc. So what's the beef with that? LOL. Boy, seems I'm not the only one getting a little "touchy"! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Pinwheel 12

One thing we must all remember---IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT BOW YOU SHOOT, WE ARE ALL ARCHERS FIRST, AND SHARE A LOVE FOR THE SPORT.

THAT is what matters. Pinwheel 12

RE: Not fast, OR quiet enough !! Little Test I did.

I think you guys understand why this one is getting locked.
Its become entirely too personal and I don't see it transforming into anything constructive.....<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>
If you wish to continue this "Debate" may I recommend e-mail.