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What makes a set of string and cables the best?
Lets say price was the same, and customer service was the same. If you had 4 people to choose from and they were all using the same 452X string material, what is done during the assembly process to make a set of strings and cables better than the other?
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
The builder that doesn't consume a 12 pack within the two or so hours of the process. :D
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
someone's opinion makes something the best.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
someone's opinion makes something the best. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
Just so you know...I have not learned a thing from this thread. I was hoping to hear something along the lines of pre-stretching string to a certain poundage before serving, special equipment to make the string the best it can be, asking each customer how many twists per inch do they currently have on each factory string or cablewith bow tuned, not drinking a 12 pack beforebuilding a set of strings and cables...etc. I take the comment back about customer service being the same. :D:D:D
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
[quote]ORIGINAL: MilDotMaster
not drinking a 12 pack beforebuilding a set of strings and cables...etc. Not a big deal, I was just being funny. I usually don't joke around much and when I do I usually end up*$%#@! somebody off. Thanks for reminding me once again what happens when I joke around. :D |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
there's different opinions. looks is one, if your serving doesn't fly off, that's good. if your peep does the same thing every time, that's good for obvious reasons. if you go out hunting and its cold, and 2 hours up a tree you see a deer, and your peep isn't flipped around the other way because of the temps, that's good. if after a reasonable amt of time, whatever that is, your bow stays where you put it, that's good. how long that period is, in my opinion, is misunderstood. with 452x its just not very long, period. with 8125 or ts1+ there are ways to make that period just as short. whether or not this is good, in the opinion of many buyers of strings, yes, its good, in my opinion, and that of a few people i talk with about strings, its not good. yeah, 8125 needs to be stretched out or you'll find the culprit of serving seperation is generally elongation of the string, how much, how long, that's debateable. people like it if you put it on your bow (talking 8125 here only), take 30 shots, and that's pretty much it. i like it if you put it on your bow, and about 3-4 days later you need to adjust it, and that'll be it. that way i don't have to stress it too much, at too high a poundage, which i don't like to do. 200# 10 minutes, up and down a few times to the tension, good, and i didn't damage any fibers. that's how i see it. 800#, bad. there goes your elasticity. that's my opinion, and a couple of the better string makers out there i occasionally ask questions. i don't think it makes it right, the proof is in the puddin'
the folks who know the most about the whole thing as far as customers go generally shoot 150-200 times regardless of who made it, or what the material is, before even putting in a peep. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
I do not like unserved yokes on buss cables, like Winners choice and Vapor trail. I also like strings that fit into the grooves on the cam so the string does not protrude past the cam profile.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
In my personal opinion since I deal with this every day, is to cater to the customer and explain to them the pros and cons of different material. as a custom string maker there are alot of variables that go into a string. every bow is different, older bows can only use 1 or 2 different kinds of material, do you want absolutly no creep, with slower speed, a small bit of creep with higher speed, i've never had problems with peep rotation under any kind of temps so I don't know what that was all about, if a string is served under enough tension it won't twist and the serving will compress when the tension is let off, the average string I build is 1 1/4" under tension than static, most bow manufactures recomend setting string length at 100lbs of tension, most archers don't have the means to preform that, most string factories don't have enough quality control to inspect them all. that's where a custom string builder can answer your questions, meet your expatations, and probaly and another archer to thier customer base.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
In my opinion, there are a few important aspects of string building that are important when you're making it for someone else.
String creep is elongation of the string, that is NOT due to stretching of the string. This is slack in the string fibers and from the construction method, that show up down the road with the string gradually getting longer. When this happens, your nocking point will generally move a bit, especially on a single cam. It will also affect your draw length and draw weight. All this, makes string creep enemy number one. I can tie a string, so that creep is less than 1/8" over a year on a 100"+ string. I've measured string creep of near 2" on strings many times. Which would you want on your bow? Serving quality varies greatly. The ideal serving is strong, stable and fits the cam groves. Although the last point usually has more to do with the manufacturer of the cam. A good serving won't separate or wear too fast. Once again, this is an area where there are great differences from different string makers. If your serving separates or your center serving moves, it can affect your bow tune. It can also expose your string to wear if the separation is severe. Peep stability is another area where many people are going to look critically at. I don't use a peep, so it means nothing to me, but most peep users want a peep that stays put without having to resort to rubber tubing. This is tricky and often the problem is with the archer, not the string. However, a string can be made to have minimal or no twisting, while others are constantly moving. Most archers want a string that not only doesn't require much time before they can tune the bow, but they want it to last for at least a year of heavy shooting. This is tricky, because prestretching can weaken fibers, yet not prestretching, will allow for more of the dreaded string creep and a much longer time breaking the string in. That's why you have to take 30-200 shots - to get the string creep out. This means the string is now a different length - bad! I've personally made many strings that were prestretched in the 400-500 lb range, with absolutely zero problems with durability or string creep. You can pop your peep in and start tuning immediately. Zero string creep and no break-in time. So, yes there is a difference in string makers and you can only evaluate one by talking to some knowledgable shooters who have used the strings long term. Durability, and string creep cannot be meaningfully evaluated short term. Creep can only be detected by someone who measures the string under pressure, both when it's new and when it's replaced. I record this for all the strings I make. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
just to say, modern materials can't elongate an inch, 2 inches, or anywhere close to that. when that happens, the material isn't elongating. its something else.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
ORIGINAL: Straightarrow In my opinion, there are a few important aspects of string building that are important when you're making it for someone else. String creep is elongation of the string, that is NOT due to stretching of the string. This is slack in the string fibers and from the construction method, that show up down the road with the string gradually getting longer. When this happens, your nocking point will generally move a bit, especially on a single cam. It will also affect your draw length and draw weight. All this, makes string creep enemy number one. I can tie a string, so that creep is less than 1/8" over a year on a 100"+ string. I've measured string creep of near 2" on strings many times. Which would you want on your bow? Serving quality varies greatly. The ideal serving is strong, stable and fits the cam groves. Although the last point usually has more to do with the manufacturer of the cam. A good serving won't separate or wear too fast. Once again, this is an area where there are great differences from different string makers. If your serving separates or your center serving moves, it can affect your bow tune. It can also expose your string to wear if the separation is severe. Peep stability is another area where many people are going to look critically at. I don't use a peep, so it means nothing to me, but most peep users want a peep that stays put without having to resort to rubber tubing. This is tricky and often the problem is with the archer, not the string. However, a string can be made to have minimal or no twisting, while others are constantly moving. Most archers want a string that not only doesn't require much time before they can tune the bow, but they want it to last for at least a year of heavy shooting. This is tricky, because prestretching can weaken fibers, yet not prestretching, will allow for more of the dreaded string creep and a much longer time breaking the string in. That's why you have to take 30-200 shots - to get the string creep out. This means the string is now a different length - bad! I've personally made many strings that were prestretched in the 400-500 lb range, with absolutely zero problems with durability or string creep. You can pop your peep in and start tuning immediately. Zero string creep and no break-in time. So, yes there is a difference in string makers and you can only evaluate one by talking to some knowledgable shooters who have used the strings long term. Durability, and string creep cannot be meaningfully evaluated short term. Creep can only be detected by someone who measures the string under pressure, both when it's new and when it's replaced. I record this for all the strings I make. Straightarrow, That was a great post. Thanks for taking the time to explain the details. For myself and anyone else who reads this; we will no longer have to ask that question again or wonder what step should be taken to make a good string. I feel like I have a better understanding of such an important part to accuracy (string making) and I thank you for that. I will print this out and keep it with my other notes to refer to in years to come. Thanks again for your time. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
just to say, modern materials can't elongate an inch, 2 inches, or anywhere close to that. when that happens, the material isn't elongating. its something else. The only warning I give people, is to make sure to get a new string every year, if they get one from me. High Vectran-content strings are more brittle and can break more easily without warning. I've never had one break within a year of construction, even with 30,000 shots on it, but it's better to be safe than sorry. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
nope, not that either, neither one of those things will give you 1-2".
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
What does elongate a string that much? I have personally seen strings elongate that , and more. In fact, just last week I worked on a bow (single cam) that went from a 33" A to A to 34". The string elongated at least 2" for him. As well as an inch on the buss cable. FWIW it was the original string to his Parker EZ draw. I had the same experience about four years back on my Feather Mag.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
Really, don't stop there gibblet. Tell us what does it. I know if happens and frequently, because I've personally measured it many times. Maybe you're saying that many string makers are so poor, that the original strings were made an inch longer than what they were trying to make.
Besides, how can you reliably say that poor construction methods can't cause it? If there is plenty of slack (inconsistant wrapping tension), and a poor finishing knot, and loose servings then the string can move a lot farther than one would think. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
I heard the best results for 452X are taking it up to a preload of 400 pounds for a few minutes, backing it down to 200 pounds and serving it at that 200 pounds. Can we all agree on that much?
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
oh, sorry straightarrow, i apologize, you had it and i missed it. poor finishing knot in the string. the tag ends that got wrapped over, butnot tied in a good knot are sliding each time the bow is fired, but just a teeny, tiny bit. i missed it in your post. i probably read it but just didnt' get that 's what you were saying. so its actually sliding apart.
mildot,why would you ask us to agree about something when you have no earthly idea if its true or not. did he even tell you why he does that? the 400# part? i know, but do you? and no, i don't do it. you should check out larry's strings on his hoyts. he made them on his jig. no tension other than what the jig gets, which maxes at 70#. no seperation, no rotation. hmmmmm? |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
you should check out larry's strings on his hoyts. he made them on his jig. no tension other than what the jig gets, which maxes at 70#. no seperation, no rotation. hmmmmm?  By the way, I always meaure stock strings that are new that I'm replacing and a huge percentage of them have been the wrong length - sometimes off by more than an inch! The only reason I put a lot of pressure on my strings is that it shortens the break-in period to almost nothing, and gets to the perfect length more easily. Most people like that. A perfectly good string can be made with only moderate tension. However, the person has to be willing to shoot for a bit without tuning, and then put the string back on a jig and put in a twist or two in order get back to exact string length. Of course, exact string length is not critical or important to many people. I know a lot of string makers who make their strings 1/8" or 1/4" short, to compensate for the movement they will make in the first couple hundred shots. MilDotMaster, I have experimented with tension at 400 lbs overnight, and have not noticed any problems doing this. In fact the end servings have to be served at this tension or I wouldn't dare leave it for any length of time under that tension. I'm fairly certain that it's important to serve at a tension that is greater than the draw weight of the bow, but I'm not convinced that it can't be a lot higher. By the way, I don't sell strings. I make them for myself and friends. If someone wants a good string, they should go to a guy like gibblet. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
arrow, ever notice which bows come with strings with absolutely no knots in the string at all? the ones everyone complains about all the time? i don't want to say it outloud, maybe they'll start using knots
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
gibblet: Take a look at my prior post. I know nothing about string making. But I do serve strings and change them with no problem. Do you believe this could be a result if the knot situation that you mentioned in your post? The elongation in those strings that I mentioned really has me baffled. Thanks.
What does elongate a string that much? I have personally seen strings elongate that , and more. In fact, just last week I worked on a bow (single cam) that went from a 33" A to A to 34". The string elongated at least 2" for him. As well as an inch on the buss cable. FWIW it was the original string to his Parker EZ draw. I had the same experience about four years back on my Feather Mag. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
ORIGINAL: gibblet mildot,why would you ask us to agree about something when you have no earthly idea if its true or not. did he even tell you why he does that? the 400# part? i know, but do you? and no, i don't do it. Gibblet, I’m curious if you don’t pull 400 pounds on string because it’s your preferred method or is it that your equipment isn’t capable of doing it? Straight up question...will your equipment hold 400 pounds? From what I have been researching sounds like the 400 pound pull brings nothing negative to the table if you’re using the 452X. Since it takes out the break in period of the string, I see that as a good thing. That alone would eliminate many of the issues you brought up earlier. As far as the 200 pounds hold weight on serving, I was under the impression that this is done so that when the serving is complete and the tension is backed down, the serving will then relax and be drawn tight against each wrap to help hold it in position. I’m not trying to step on any toes here…I want to learn how to do this stuff myself for future growth and knowledge of this industry. Just seems that 400 and 200 would be an all around good starting point. Relax!;) |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
bobco, i think that's exactly what's happening.
mildot, there is no real break-in period for 452x. i can make a string, walk in the other room, put it on the bow, put a peep in, and go, and its done now, after going thru the mail and being relaxed for days, there is a very small break in period, maybe 20-30 shots. however, most experienced archers will not put in a peep or compete, or hunt - unless they've had an unplanned accident- until 200 shots are on the bow. the things some people do with a bow are very important to them, and they take no risks. the reason someone would take a string to 400# after making it endless is because it allows them to be a bit sloppy when laying it out. its a method to equalize the tension on all the strands. i don't need to do it. i've never tried to get to 400#, but i believe my tensioner would. the new hhm serving machine you're referring to that will do it was designed with mike carter's help, for the way mike likes to build strings. the guy at hhm just says what mike says. he really doesn't know anything about making strings. there are a couple things mike and i do differently. i think my way is better. he thinks his is. that's how anything is. i get a lot of customers from him that didn'tlove his strings, and i'm sure he gets a lot of mine, that's how it is. he's a great guy. always helps me out when i need lengths or anything. helps me when i break my machine.i really likemike, andin my lay opinionhe builds very nice strings.who's way is better? its in the eye of the beholder. truthfully, 70-100# of tension is enough for 452x. using more helps squeeze the fibers together, seating them, and does what you say, which makes it not necessary to serve as tight. that way you can use paddles instead of a jig to serve. you can't get the serving to go on as tight with a paddle. i don't use paddles. hate them. mike uses paddles. i spool my thread off large 1 pound spools onto small ones and use a beiter winder. i can get the serving a whole lot tighter than with paddles. i think that way is better, but its more work. i don't care about that part. and i am getting antsy because you ought to try something, and see for yourself a bit, before declaring anything about any technique involved, and just saying what you heard as if it means anything. you're being a parrot. now, in 2 weeks i may learn something new and change my mind about something i've said, it happens. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
ORIGINAL: gibblet now, in 2 weeks i may learn something new and change my mind about something i've said, it happens. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
are you teasing me nodog. im sure i deserve it.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
No joke. I'd be interested in an option to upgrade yearly, if there was a reason too.
ORIGINAL: gibblet are you teasing me nodog. im sure i deserve it. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
Thanks gibblet.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
From what I have been researching sounds like the 400 pound pull brings nothing negative to the table if you’re using the 452X. I could be wrong but do I really want to take the chance I think not. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
ORIGINAL: gibblet You're being a parrot. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
Material and warranty !!! LOL
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
stone mountain makes decent strings.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
IMHO anything over 200lb could shorten the life of the string, when you get upwards of 400lb you are putting a lot of undue stress on the string fibers which could lead to a very nasty failure. I could be wrong but do I really want to take the chance I think not. It makes sense when you think about it. The string material is designed to take far greater stress than 400 lbs. Most have been designed to take 6500 to 9000 ft/lbs per strand. The weakest point is at the loops where the string is only 7-8 strands thick. Still this is many times stronger than need be. I've also never seen a string break at a loop, though I'm sure some do. To be worried, would be similar to not trusting 40 lb test fishing line, when catching an 8 oz bass. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
ORIGINAL: Straightarrow It makes sense when you think about it. |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
hopefully we can agree to disagree here |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
Lets be honest, the basic material will be the same, 452 is a great product & works extreamly well. With that said all of the top string companies make a great product, To say a Winners Choice is heads above a Stone Mountain Dakota would be pushing it. If the materials are the same & the strings are prestretched they should work fine if they come form one of the top string makers.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
I haven't read all the post's on this subject but had to interject.I make strings for myself,wife and friends.The only stretching I do is through my apple jig that I build them on.I make two color strings and my finish knots are always square knots,not a "Granny"but a square knot.That I know of ;I haven't seen much if any stretch at all on my strings.Oh yeah I like my beer when I build strings is that a bad thing?:D:D
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
ORIGINAL: drstalker Oh yeah I like my beer when I build strings is that a bad thing?:D:D |
RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
I understand that Gibblet:D:DI only get to start on them after a long day at work,and actually find string making theraputic:)my back gets to hurting though at times after hunkering down making strings,I need a taller bench.The most difficult for me is single cam bows where strings can exceed 90+inches.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
yeah, an ovation at 106 1/4" with about 70" of serving. glad i've got a serving machine. i can make that 38" idler/rollerguard run in about a minute.
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RE: What makes a set of string and cables the best?
Gibblet, what does the serving machine looklike?I may have to get one of these.
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