RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

Glad to see this is going over smoothly…thanks for the kind words and good discussion. I was concerned that listing my results/comments “against the grain” would cause some conflict. It was hard for me to tune my bow in the opposite direction that was instructed, but I’m glad I at least tried. It was even harder to post the results here, but I felt it might help somebody somehow.

Some of you have brought up some great questions about human error vs. using a hooter shooter. I don’t think I can provide you with the best answer since I don’t have any experience with a hooter shooter and don’t have the knowledge. All I can say is that when you start placing half twists in your cables and taking several shots, you will get to a point like I did where the accuracy results will be like somebody turned on the light switch. BAM! You can call it finding the ultimate tune or you can call it tuning the bow precisely to my shooting form. Call it whatever you want, but like I said at that close range there isn’t much human error, and the accuracy sure feels like it has some extra forgiveness built into it. There were a few shots that when I released felt like I pulled them a little, but the arrow was still in the same exact hole as the previous arrow. It’s something you have to experience yourself to understand. The best way I know how to describe it is like I said above…it’s like a light switch was turned on (black and white). I think if we all can do this to our bows we have a big advantage over not fine-tuning at all or even having somebody else tune your cams. I say this because you will be tuning the bow to you and only you. I don’t think a hooter shooter can do that.

Another thing I learned was that when you reach this tune you have got to be making huge gains in your KE level. I have a brand new 2006 Morrell Super Duper target that is made to stop high KE level arrows in their tracks. However, with this tune at 10 yards it was only taking about 5-7 arrows hitting in the same hole to almost completely bore a hole right through that new target. I think this kind of force is what took the straightness out of my 3 new carbon pro shafts while bare shaft tuning at these closer ranges. Even when you start in a fresh location on target, you will see how hard it is to get arrow out of target as compared to the little force required to pull a less than perfectly tuned arrow from target. This in itself has made me wonder how many of us use online KE calculators and think we are getting a certain number, when in reality we are not due to bow tune being less than perfect. We make judgment calls on range and ethics based off of this KE number and I feel it’s important to make sure we are getting as close to the KE calculators as possible by finding the best tune.

Somebody else brought up a comment about let-off in relation to cam position. Yes I have found that the further the dots on cams are “mixed matched” from top to bottom, the higher the let-off. However, with the first released cam mods on the 2006 Bowtechs, I have been getting what I call a spongy back wall. This in my opinion looked to be caused from both secondary stops slightly contacting cables just before draw stop peg was making 100% hard contact on limb face. I had to take my peg out of the 80% let-off position and place it in the 75% let-off position to get a firm/solid back wall. I have the revised cam mods on order. From what I hear, the new cam mods may give me slightly more room before secondary stops contact cables, so I then can place my stop peg back into the 80% position where it should be. It also has a stainless steel draw stop peg to handle the torque from allen screw and shear loads at full draw better than the previous stop peg. I’m sure there is another way around this spongy wall, but I don’t want to change my bow tune at all. Still waiting on vanes to complete my arrows and new cam mods.

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

mildot, a lot of folks believe you'll be a better shot at a fair piece below 80% letoff. makes you focus. and, as picky as you are, i just want to warn you about the bad habits that hair trigger will get you into. (i read about that somewhere else). it seems archery has got you, me too. you know by now when we're just messin' with eachother, and since you seem very dedicated andi'm trying to point you in the right direction here. really, you just can't help from learning to let go of your bow arm and everything when you subconciously learn when the release will go off. 'the answer' release will show you that in a hurry. as picky as you are i really think you'd flip out on back tension, and believe me, it will give you something to obsess about for years (i believe years because i'm getting closer to a year and i'm still obsessed - and it cured me from tinkering). once you get your bow shooting right you won't want to touch it for anything, it'll be form, form, form, and isolating that darn rhomboid.anyway, something to think about, and i'd like to read your process thru it.

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

Thanks for the advice Gibblet. Give me a let-off percentage to shoot for and I will make the adjustments. I have been thinking about back tension for several weeks and I have mixed emotions about it. I need more details to get me onboard with the idea. I will be completely honest and say that all my influences have been from a hunting crowd, not a target crowd. Every time I bring back tension up, I get the old roll the eyes attitude and comments that back tension isn’t for hunters. They explain that in a hunting situation, they like to be in control of when the shot is fired since the animal is moving at times. However, I’m sure with practice you guys shooting back tension know when the arrow will release give or take a few tenths of a second??? With hearing all this, I came up with something in between the two methods of release. I don’t know if it’s right or wrong or what it can be called, but this is what I have learned while bare shaft tuning.

When I first started with my normal form I was getting rear of arrow slightly placed right of tip in target (right tear). I kept moving my arrow rest to the right (inboard) thinking my center shot was off. After the problem got worse, I then realized it must be my form. Then I started pushing forward with bow arm (keeping elbow pointed outboard/to the left) and really making sure my draw arm was pulled all the way back, so if viewed from above you will see a straight line from my bow arm to draw arm. I could only get this accomplished by squeezing/flexing the muscles between my shoulder blades. As I hold this position on anchor points, I hold breath, make sure draw hand is relaxed, settle pin and pull trigger. When I did this, I started getting bare shaft arrows straight in target after impact. This is when I really started making gains in bare shaft tuning. My minor cam adjustments were seen as long as I maintained this form. Due to my back muscles getting quickly tired, I could tell when to stop testing and call it a night. This is why it took me a few nights after work to get my cam timing figured out.

I’m sure I have a habit of “punching” the trigger, but I have not seen any negative results to this with my release trigger adjusted very light. I try and just brush it, but I know there are times when I’m concentrating on other parts of form, that I pull trigger harder than needed. I could use some help in this area for sure if anyone could explain to me why I need to stop doing it from an accuracy perspective. Is it wrong to pull trigger? Any other pointers are appreciated. The reason why I have mixed emotions about pure back tension is because I’ve seen my group sizes before at 60 yards and just assume that once the arrows are fletched they will not be as critical to my normal form or lack of pulling shoulder blades together. Are these assumptions incorrect? I want to learn more as long as it is practical for my application.

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

let me think about all that.

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

65%

You got that right skippy;)

I will call BS there cause even using my thumb trigger I still fire it using back tension and even IF I use a wrist release I will still use back tension to fire it.

IMHO yes it is wrong.
Set your trigger to about 4 to 6 pounds when you are set put pressure on the trigger then finish the release using back tension.

As Gibby will tell you if your draw is even 1/2" too long then you will have difficulty getting the release to fire using back tension.

Get Micheal Bradens dvd he goes into a lot of detail on using back tension with a wrist release;)

If you do punch the trigger then start blind baling to get the feel of the release, every time the release goes off it should be a surprise;)

If you do decide to go to a BT release then lock your other one away and do not use it but be warned until the proper use of a BT release finally clicks your score and groups will go to pot but dont let this deter you from BT.

I would start at 5 yards from the target cause you are going to have that release going off and arras flying all over the place until you learn BT.

Oh and another little hint draw away from your face otherwise you could end up with a split lip, missing teeth or a busted nose:);):D

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

Great advice Ausie, very well said.

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

What gibblet and Ausie are saying is all very true. It has almost been a year now that I have been shooting the BT/hinge release, and I have been shooting one exclusively since last August (except for hunting). Just this winter, my shooting has gotten to and surpassed the point of where I was shooting before with a thumb trigger style release. Now I am noticably better with the backtension release. I know your buddies may roll their eyes, but just think of the looks on their faces when none of them can keep pace with your accuracy and consistency. Picking up a BT release and dedicating an entire winter to it is the best thing I have ever done to become a better archer. You have to stick with it though, it is easy to want to quit the first time you try to let down with one and end up punching yourself and losing an arrow.....the results are worth it though IMHO.

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

Very interesting post so-far. But I've got a ?? for you back tension types.

Can they be used effectively in a hunting situation if your not "square" to the target?
Let's say you've set up your shooting lane for a proper "range" stance that allows full use of the back tension type release, but your buck shows up or crosses to your off side (right side for a right hand shooter) can you still make a back tension release work if your form isn't just right?
IE- Shoulders not fully extendable since the target is in front of you?

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

Mildot, here is a description of how I get a surprise release every shot with a caliper release. First off I use a release that has a spring for a trigger, but it isn't necessary. When I come to full draw I lift my draw arm elbow just a little as I place my index finger around the trigger (all thisis done while pin is placed on target).With slight pressure on the triggerI begin to lower my draw elbow which naturally keeps pressure against the wall and increases pressure on the trigger until bow goes off. This may sound like alot of movement, but its not. My wife video taped me shooting and and I could not see any movement at all. I call this back tension, but I've never had a pro or coach tell me that it was proper back tension. I do know that as I start to lower the elbow my sight becomes more steady, so I figure I must be doing something right. I do use this same method to hunt and have shot from slightly awkward angles. As far as a hair trigger goes, I've found that a little stiffer trigger is better, but thats just me.Achieving a surprise release greatly improved my shooting and since you already use a caliper it costs you nothing to give it a try.

RE: Sharing what I've learned about Binary Cam Timing
 

EXCELLENT release discussion, this is what really is a boon to a forum. Guys should be reveling in this info. Pardon me for asking mildot, but what is your occupation?