Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
09-19-2002, 02:00 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
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Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
Ok. I know spine is mainly an issue with aluminum arrows. You have to have enough so the arrow doesn't give too much upon release and cause archer's paradox. It would make sense with heavier aluminum to get just the right amount of spine, as too much could lead to a heavier arrow, and be counter to your goal (maybe).
But with a lighter carbon arrow and using a drop away rest, can you really have too much spine? It seems to me that the stiffest, straightest projectile would be the most effecient when shot through a well tuned bow. I know not enough spine could cause paradox problems, but what kind of problems can too stiff a spine cause? I mean, if my bow shoots an absolute bullet hole at 5 feet with a GT 5575 (it does), why on earth wouldn't it with a much stiffer spined arrow, not only a 7595 but all the way up to GT's big game shaft, spined for 110# bows? I just can't envision any potential problems. Please illuminate me.
Oh, the Bob Ragsdale link from the other thread:
http://domino.htcomp.net/ragsdale.ns...b?OpenDocument
http://domino.htcomp.net/ragsdale.ns...b?OpenDocument
Edited by - Rangeball on 09/19/2002 15:33:03
Edited by - Rangeball on 09/19/2002 15:35:02
But with a lighter carbon arrow and using a drop away rest, can you really have too much spine? It seems to me that the stiffest, straightest projectile would be the most effecient when shot through a well tuned bow. I know not enough spine could cause paradox problems, but what kind of problems can too stiff a spine cause? I mean, if my bow shoots an absolute bullet hole at 5 feet with a GT 5575 (it does), why on earth wouldn't it with a much stiffer spined arrow, not only a 7595 but all the way up to GT's big game shaft, spined for 110# bows? I just can't envision any potential problems. Please illuminate me.
Oh, the Bob Ragsdale link from the other thread:
http://domino.htcomp.net/ragsdale.ns...b?OpenDocument
http://domino.htcomp.net/ragsdale.ns...b?OpenDocument
Edited by - Rangeball on 09/19/2002 15:33:03
Edited by - Rangeball on 09/19/2002 15:35:02
09-19-2002, 02:42 PM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Miami FL USA
Posts: 208
RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
Range,
I've done a bit of testing on this! I have two Dartons, one set at 56
# for a target bow, and the other set at 70# for hunting. Tested the 70# bows arrows broadhead and fieldpoints in the 56# bow and the arrows flew very well. In fact good enough to use the target bow(camo'd) for a hunting backup using the same arrows. I usually shoot ACC 3-39's or 3-49's out of the target bow depending on the poundage I've got set. The arrows for the Darton Maverick are charted for 75# and shoot fine out of the bow. The Cyclone LD is outfitted with a Muzzy ZE rest modified with a shortened pickup hook to be legal for target. Because the arrows for the hunting bow are lighter the impact point is about the same at 20yds dispite the difference in bow poundages.
Aim Hard!
I've done a bit of testing on this! I have two Dartons, one set at 56
# for a target bow, and the other set at 70# for hunting. Tested the 70# bows arrows broadhead and fieldpoints in the 56# bow and the arrows flew very well. In fact good enough to use the target bow(camo'd) for a hunting backup using the same arrows. I usually shoot ACC 3-39's or 3-49's out of the target bow depending on the poundage I've got set. The arrows for the Darton Maverick are charted for 75# and shoot fine out of the bow. The Cyclone LD is outfitted with a Muzzy ZE rest modified with a shortened pickup hook to be legal for target. Because the arrows for the hunting bow are lighter the impact point is about the same at 20yds dispite the difference in bow poundages.
Aim Hard!
09-19-2002, 03:27 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
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RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
FL, looks like solid real world evidence to support what I'm thinking.
So, based on this, if one wants to shoot the heaviest carbon possible without adding internal weights, the GT Big Game should fit the bill quite nicely, no? At 10.7 grains per inch, with a 100 grain tip and 3 four inch feathers, this would give me a finished arrow right around 430 grains, about 7 grains per pound adjusted for my draw, and still be moving around 280 fps.
I know carbon-tech has the Rhino, but it's straightness tolerance is only .006", I believe the Easton Evolution is around ".004 or 5 and I've no idea how much it weighs per inch, not aware of many other heavy weight carbons. Anyone? The GT big game are .003", with a 5 grain weigh tolerance.
Edited by - Rangeball on 09/19/2002 17:03:47
Edited by - Rangeball on 09/19/2002 17:05:48
So, based on this, if one wants to shoot the heaviest carbon possible without adding internal weights, the GT Big Game should fit the bill quite nicely, no? At 10.7 grains per inch, with a 100 grain tip and 3 four inch feathers, this would give me a finished arrow right around 430 grains, about 7 grains per pound adjusted for my draw, and still be moving around 280 fps.
I know carbon-tech has the Rhino, but it's straightness tolerance is only .006", I believe the Easton Evolution is around ".004 or 5 and I've no idea how much it weighs per inch, not aware of many other heavy weight carbons. Anyone? The GT big game are .003", with a 5 grain weigh tolerance.
Edited by - Rangeball on 09/19/2002 17:03:47
Edited by - Rangeball on 09/19/2002 17:05:48
09-19-2002, 11:09 PM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central IN
Posts: 400
RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
Rangeball, have you looked at PSE's Carbon Force arrows? They have several different models with straightness tolerance down to .001, and 9.5 (grains per inch) on some of their large diameter carbons. Just an idea in case you haven't seen them yet. (the info is on their website).
--Man who fish in other man's well often catch crabs--
--Man who fish in other man's well often catch crabs--
09-19-2002, 11:43 PM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
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RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
It comes down to penetration.A stiff arrow,even carbon will have to recover from the spine being to stiff.This will eat up forward momentum and ke.You can tune a bow to a stiff arrow but the tune will not be the most forgiving.What I mean by this is sometimes the centershot has to be out for a stiff arrow to shoot paper or the nock heighth has to be way out of wack.A stiff arrow will do great as far as grouping but will usually have a kick when tuned to group.This is where penetration suffers.Going a little stiff is fine but don't get carried away.Just my opinion.
I would worry more about spine consistancy than straightness.I have shot really well with Redlines at only .004 straightness.
There are some heavy arrows that will spine and get the weight you want.AC Kinetic II are aluminum,carbon mix but are quite heavy.The Nitro Stinger golds are 8.9 gr per inch.They spine from 60-100# and that is due to the tapered design.These arrows will flat out penetrate a live animal.They are also VERY accurate.I think it would be much easier to just get the right arrow and shoot it.
I would worry more about spine consistancy than straightness.I have shot really well with Redlines at only .004 straightness.
There are some heavy arrows that will spine and get the weight you want.AC Kinetic II are aluminum,carbon mix but are quite heavy.The Nitro Stinger golds are 8.9 gr per inch.They spine from 60-100# and that is due to the tapered design.These arrows will flat out penetrate a live animal.They are also VERY accurate.I think it would be much easier to just get the right arrow and shoot it.
09-20-2002, 01:09 AM
#6
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
Even with the stiffest of arrows, you WILL get flex when you shoot the arrow. You need SOME give in the arrow to allow it to recover after it leaves the string. Too stiff of an arrow, WILL flex on the shot, but not enough after the shot to get back to EXACT center. Target shooters can get away with a lot stiffer spine as there is no canard on the front of the arrow (blades). For broadheads, this would make a very unforgiving set-up.
With a string loop, and a drop away rest, the bow is more forgiving to start with....allowing you to shoot a stiffer spine with good results. But even then, a properly spined arrow will give you a more consistant result. I have tried going up just 1 spine (carbon express...I shoot 200s, tried 300s) and found that while I can make the 300s shoot well, the 200s STILL grouped better...even on shots I thought were "bad".
With a string loop, and a drop away rest, the bow is more forgiving to start with....allowing you to shoot a stiffer spine with good results. But even then, a properly spined arrow will give you a more consistant result. I have tried going up just 1 spine (carbon express...I shoot 200s, tried 300s) and found that while I can make the 300s shoot well, the 200s STILL grouped better...even on shots I thought were "bad".
09-20-2002, 08:08 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
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RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
TFOx and Stealth Force, I guess I'm still confused. Assuming a release shooter and using a drop away (I do both), it seems to me that the I'm trying to get an arrow from point A (full draw) to point B (the target) in the straightest line possible. A stiffer arrow would seem to me to be able to absorb and hold more of the energy from the bow, as it is not wasting it in unnecessary side to side motion. If a super stiff arrow still flexes, even a little bit, upon release, common sense seems to dictate that it will flex back to it's original straightness quicker than a limper arrow would. I can't understand how an arrow flexing back and forth will make it ultimately fly and group better than a stiffer arrow. Also, assuming the bow is tuned well (mine is) I can't see how adding a quality well flying broadhead (steelforce for example) would hurt things.
Your thoughts seem counter to FLHunter's testing, as well as the info in Bob Ragsdale's links I provided. Now I'm really confused... please explain further.
Your thoughts seem counter to FLHunter's testing, as well as the info in Bob Ragsdale's links I provided. Now I'm really confused... please explain further.
09-20-2002, 08:11 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
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RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
TFOx and Stealth Force, I guess I'm still confused. Assuming a release shooter and using a drop away (I do both), it seems to me that the I'm trying to get an arrow from point A (full draw) to point B (the target) in the straightest line possible. A stiffer arrow would seem to me to be able to absorb and hold more of the energy from the bow, as it is not wasting it in unnecessary side to side motion. If a super stiff arrow still flexes, even a little bit, upon release, common sense seems to dictate that it will flex back to it's original straightness quicker than a limper arrow would. I can't understand how an arrow flexing back and forth will make it ultimately fly and group better than a stiffer arrow. Also, assuming the bow is tuned well (mine is) I can't see how adding a quality well flying broadhead (steelforce for example) would hurt things.
Your thoughts seem counter to FLHunter's testing, as well as the info in Bob Ragsdale's links I provided. Now I'm really confused... please explain further.
Your thoughts seem counter to FLHunter's testing, as well as the info in Bob Ragsdale's links I provided. Now I'm really confused... please explain further.
09-20-2002, 08:20 AM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Miami FL USA
Posts: 208
RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
I can attest to the fact that using a slightly underspined arrow out of the same target bow presented big problems forcing me to lower the poundage a few pounds to shoot the arrows. Conversely the stiffer arrows all shot well, even the ones that were very overspined. When I setup arrows for my recurve it is far more critical as to arrowspine. Too weak or too stiff present immediate problems.
Range,
There is one thing you are not considering, archer's paradox is on a vertical plane out of compound with a shoot through rest and using a release. This makes the spine considerations more forgiving from the get go. The problem with the weaker arrowspines is that the recovery is far too long. As TFox stated I wouldn't go overboard on this stiff arrow thing. I have shot a lot of overspined shafts out of my 60# setup to see what happened. I had some 60/80, 70/90 old Beman Hunters left around and they all flew well. I don't know where the too stiff begins. The goal to all of this is to get a balanced setup that falls well within the mean. Just select a combination that will give you good KE and arrowspeed, its all a matter of tradeoffs. I have stated a number of times here that if I were going to hunt larger game than whitetails I would raise my arrows weight 100 grains. It would raise my KE from 73# to 83# and slow the arrowspeed to about 285fps. Still good speed, but more punch for what I am intended on now doing. My advice is to take a good average on the setup. I usually select one shaft stiffer than the chart indicates on my one cams, this seems to workout very well for both fieldpoints and broadheads.
Aim Hard!
Edited by - FLHunter on 09/20/2002 09:38:32
Range,
There is one thing you are not considering, archer's paradox is on a vertical plane out of compound with a shoot through rest and using a release. This makes the spine considerations more forgiving from the get go. The problem with the weaker arrowspines is that the recovery is far too long. As TFox stated I wouldn't go overboard on this stiff arrow thing. I have shot a lot of overspined shafts out of my 60# setup to see what happened. I had some 60/80, 70/90 old Beman Hunters left around and they all flew well. I don't know where the too stiff begins. The goal to all of this is to get a balanced setup that falls well within the mean. Just select a combination that will give you good KE and arrowspeed, its all a matter of tradeoffs. I have stated a number of times here that if I were going to hunt larger game than whitetails I would raise my arrows weight 100 grains. It would raise my KE from 73# to 83# and slow the arrowspeed to about 285fps. Still good speed, but more punch for what I am intended on now doing. My advice is to take a good average on the setup. I usually select one shaft stiffer than the chart indicates on my one cams, this seems to workout very well for both fieldpoints and broadheads.
Aim Hard!
Edited by - FLHunter on 09/20/2002 09:38:32
09-20-2002, 10:17 AM
#10
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hilliard OH USA
Posts: 328
RE: Too Stiff a spine theory exploration
Ok all,
My question.... Does the arrow react the same vertically in a drop-away rest as it does horizontally to a plunger button?
I agree with recurves being extremly sensitive to spine because shooting off the shelf gives a very large contact point which causes the oscillation. Some of us went to a prong style rest and unless my information is incorrect(I don't shoot a rest of this type and never tried tuning one) the oscillation is still there.
If the drop-away rest is in contact only at the instant of the release and really dosn't contact the arrow after the first 1/2 inch or so on release, how does the verticle oscillation start? As the force would be in a straight line through the arrow.
Thanks, I hope I am clear in my question!
Greg
"Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus."
Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!
My question.... Does the arrow react the same vertically in a drop-away rest as it does horizontally to a plunger button?
I agree with recurves being extremly sensitive to spine because shooting off the shelf gives a very large contact point which causes the oscillation. Some of us went to a prong style rest and unless my information is incorrect(I don't shoot a rest of this type and never tried tuning one) the oscillation is still there.
If the drop-away rest is in contact only at the instant of the release and really dosn't contact the arrow after the first 1/2 inch or so on release, how does the verticle oscillation start? As the force would be in a straight line through the arrow.
Thanks, I hope I am clear in my question!
Greg
"Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus."
Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!