Mountain feist squirrel dog. Need advice
 

My dog is a male and two years and he is becoming a good dog overall i think but im working away his bad habits with a shock collar.one of my concerns is he is way too fast to hunt effectively with his nose i believe. I think this because of watching videos of other dogs work from big name kennels. I also think he should work farther away from us. My dog runs main from his ears and eyes he will often work with his nose but i feel not enough. My dog usually never goes from us more than 100 yards unless he hears a squirrel or something similar of that nature, then he becomes curious and checks it out. I really need help with this my dog has lots of potential. Even others have said. Hopefully im not the only one.

I personally think a dog that works close to his handler is a plus and not a minus. I train mine to stay within half that distance. It can make life a whole lot easier and avoid the worry of a dog that disappears for hours.

I rarely work my hound off a long leash when scent tracking. I put the long leash on him and he knows what is expected and puts his nose to the ground, he is nose dominant anyway.

I've got three Terriers now, one is sound dominant, one is nose dominant and the third is an earth dog. Two are so much alike you can hardly tell the difference (father and daughter), but they have different dominant senses. They work together and the whole is better than the parts

What kind of dog is it?

Dogs usually key on the pack leader, especially young ones.

Getting side tracked is normal. Working him (or her) on a leash may help, likely better than a shock collar. After a while on the leash they get immediate feedback, they can feel what you want. Most dogs want to please you, but the constant no, no, no (from a shock collar) can confuse them. They want to please you, so a yes, yes, yes often works better and helps avoid the internal conflicts.

A Flusher or a Lurcher works fast naturally. Nose dogs will often work in spurts, especially if there are crisscrossing fresh scent trails.

All dogs aren't created equal and trying to produce a cookie cutter robot dog is likely to have mixed results. All a dog breed does is give you an indication of the likely dominant traits, but each dog in that breed is a little different.

I had one gun dog that was nose dominant, mostly a Hound by nature, but he pointed by instinct (genetic) and was really good at it. None of his parents, brothers or sister pointed as well as he did. He was a moderate to poor retriever, I learned to live with it, it just wasn't his thing. I worked him to his pluses and dealt with shortcomings. All in all he was an outstanding dog. He also had one other oddity, he was extremely protective and was an outstanding personnel protection dog. He was born hating Foxes and would abandon all other duties to trail and kill a Fox. I've seen him wake up from a sound sleep and show his teeth and found A Fox with my binoculars, at close to five hundred yards, looking at me and him, which I found amazing. Needless to say I did a lot of Fox hunting. Point is learn what his talents are and maybe you will have to modify your hunts to fit his strong points, instead of trying to modify him to fit your hunts. Dogs are pack hunters, much like people are and the pack is a collection of talents that make the whole better than the pieces.

I've had dogs that tended to roam in loops away from me and then circle back and then run another loop. I usually labeled them stock Dogs for lack of a better name. Works out really well when you are Rabbit hunting. I had one Lurcher who would run Deer and Hogs and would slowly turn them back to me, she got really good at it. I learned to hunt her way and it worked well.

Thanks ill have to try working with him on a leash and my dog also makes loops like you were talking about also.

I call dogs that do that "Flankers" they usually make good stock Dogs. Dogs are basically Wolves wearing different clothes :). You ever watch a wolf pack (or Yote pack) hunt? You have Wolves on the sides (Flankers) and Wolves that go up the middle (Lurchers). Basic geometry, every time the quarry changes direction the Wolf following cuts the corner, which shortens the distance and closes the gap. If they didn't pack hunt that way, they would have to follow and outlast whatever they were hunting. Most large game animals are a few miles an hour quicker than a Wolf for a reason, the quickest (or fast enough) survive. Flankers take away the speed advantage, brains, genetics and/or pack instinct makes the pack a collection of specialists. Everybody in the pack has their own job, some are quicker, some are flankers, some have a better nose etc.

Yotes are typically faster than Wolves, Foxes generally more agile. Different successful strategies, Wolf packs are a collection of talents, which make the whole better than the individuals.

Your task is to figure out what your Dog does really well and either train him to improve his shortcomings and/or you adapt to his strengths or a combination of both, you are his pack now.

My hound can follow a blood trail of minuscule blood drops, almost too small for a human eye to see, at a full run if I'd let him. I have to constantly rein him in or I'd never be able to keep up. I don't really care if he is a hit or miss retriever or not. But even with his marginal retrieving reliability he would occasionally surprise me. I shot a Goose that hit the water when it went down and then disappeared. My hound jumped in the Creek and stayed under water so long I thought he had drowned. But eventually resurfaced with that Goose. I figured the Goose had headed for the underwater weeds and somehow my Dog found him, I really don't know if they can smell underwater or not. :)

Point is, don't underestimate him, learn what his talents are and look for hidden talents.

Something I want to add, be careful of Terriers, they are generally strong willed anyway. If you lean on them to much they can get either neurotic as heck or mean as heck or both, borderline mentally ill. They are usually nervous, busy and high energy anyway.

I'd consider training him to recover (come back to you and heal) as a real achievement. Or training him to go to ground (lay down where he is at and freeze) as a very real achievement. They make two tone whistles for this.

Lurchers can make good flushers. Especially the really curious, busy ones. They often do better Hare and Pheasant Hunting than your typical Pointers or Retrievers do. They tend to flush those stay at home types who refuse to flush until you are right on top of them. A really busy Terrier can cover a lot o brush in a hurry and tend to bore right into the thickest parts. Nose isn't everything. A mixed pack of Pointer/Retrievers and Lurcher/Terriers usually works out well. At least as long as the Dogs get along OK.

If you can get a Terrier not to bite and latch on, they make decent Hog dogs. The trouble is they tend to latch on and hold on and get hurt. They usually learn to harry and not bite and hold on the hard way, if they survive the first couple of encounters.

That high shrill bark they have seems to drive game crazy and make it want to bolt, even when other dogs braking doesn't do the trick.

Ive began working with him to come to me better and i will teach him sit soon (soon as in begin this week). Also load up. I have lots of hope for him. The way he hunts is he will make a loop of maybe 50 yards then come back and check in with us then repeat after we cover maybe 25 or so yards. He is probably one of the fastest feists ive ever seen and definitely the most hyper.

Most of the Feist I've seen are a mix of Jack Russel and/or Fox Terrier and hound. I've got one now, he is a Plummer Terrier, mix of Jack Russel, Beagle and Bull Terrier. Twenty pounds of solid muscle, with shorter legs than yours, he is nose dominant, a born tracker.

Hard to tell sometimes which traits are going to be dominant, even in Dogs that look almost identical. His daughter looks almost identical to him, but uses all of her senses and has the habit of sticking her nose into any nook, crack, crevice or hole she can find. If she can fit, she is down that hole jiffy quick.

I've got a buddy now who has a Feist, his has wire hair, but is very like your dog in most other aspects. His Dog seems to cover twice as much territory as the other dogs do and seems to be everywhere at once. A really good Hare or Rabbit dog. Also good at flushing Pheasant. I watched him kill a Doe one day. She thought she would hide and wait until everybody passed by, he happened on her and had her neck opened up in nothing flat. I was surprised a Dog that small (under 30 pounds) could kill a 40 pound Deer that quick.

It's good your dog loops and come back to check in, I'd encourage it. Many Terriers can be hard to recover (get to come back).

You've helped me a lot man thank you for taking the time.

Sorry I'm so windy, I like Dogs and talking Dogs. :)

Nothing wrong with being windy this is my first dog. Im trying to learn all that i can haha.

How is he with other dogs? This can be an issue with many Terriers or Terrier mixes. It would likely be a good idea to socialize him well. Start with females.

If he socializes well, work him with other dogs. Been my experience, Dogs tend to learn quicker from another Dog than they do from humans. Just be careful which Dogs you choose, they learn the bad habits and the good habits.

All of my Terriers think they are Mastiffs and take no crap from anybody. Which can cause issues with other dog owners. One of my Terriers I have to muzzle when he is working with other Dogs. If another Dog so much as gives him the bad eye, he is on him in a flash.

He killed the neighbors Sheperd dog. The neighbors dog had bitten me before, came after me one day when I had Zach with me. Zach latched onto his throat and refused to let go. I had to pry his jaws open with a stick. Some kind of gland in the Sheperds neck got infected and killed him in about ten days. It isn't the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size of the fight in the Dog that counts.

My daughters German Shorthair sniffed my Female Plummers rear end and has a bite sized notch gone from his ear.

Terriers can be ferocious and hard to socialize well.

He hunted with another dog once. It had been around three months since my dogs first tree. The other dog was bigger and was terrible acted like he knew nothing. It was i think it was some breed of cur. I think my dog (Jack) actually hunted somewhat harder. Only problem is not many people own squirrel dogs around my area.

Just an idea, but maybe take him ratting. My Dogs go wild over rodents. My Dogs spend hours looking for Mice in my Garden. I have a Walnut tree. fruit trees and a lot of Berry bushes to draw Rodents. I have no doubt if mine learned Rats lived in trees, they'd be looking in every tree around. Show them a Rat and they go nuts. Once he gets hot on Ratting, it should be easy to get him really interested in tree Rats. Just an idea.

Another question when im hands on training with him like teaching sit and such like that he has a tendency to roll on his back like he thinks im about to pet him. He does this pretty much everytime. Is there a way to break him from this?

I don't really know what works for other people, I usually wear them down a little, playtime or whatever and then work.

Work him on a leash, teach him to heal (to your non gun side). Some people prefer them to heal facing backwards, but you don't see that much anymore. If you keep his head up a little, he is unlikely to lay down. I use a combination of the leash to keep his head up a little and/or hand signals (If there eyes are looking up they are unlikely to lay down). Mine seem to pick up the necessities with a combination of hand signals and voice commands. Later you can use either one. Knowing when to stop training is the hard one and varies from dog to dog, it's hard to get just right. I usually try to stop on a high note.

I also train mine to a two tone whistle, one is a steady whistle, the other a trill, like a Policemans whistle. The steady tone means recover and heal. The trill whistle means drop in place and freeze. We have a couple of group hunts a year, and there may be thirty dogs along. Most all of them are trained to drop and freeze when somebody blows the policemans whistle. I don't know if you will need this or not, but it may be helpful sometime somewhere and gets them used to following commands.

A million books and videos out there, I've had both my daughters give me dog training books. Probably because I just let my dogs be dogs a bit too much. But heck it is supposed to be fun.

I'm sure some dog expert will be along soon to tell me I'm doing it all wrong.

Just another thought, I have a pointer/setter mix pup that I'm training for fall turkey. She's fast as lightning, and ranges big. Her nose seems to be fine, but she prefers relying on her eyes to hunt. A trainer suggested I drag a chukar through the brush, keep her on the leash, and try to keep her on the scent trail instead of letting her hunt, and praising her when she manages to finish tracking and finds the dead bird. Make it fun for her, with a reward when she tracks by nose. Might be a little hard finding squirrels to work with though.

Uncle Nicky, pointers and setters hunt with their heads up they are suposed to, they are still using their noses to find the scent cone. Hounds hunt with their nose down. You don't want a pointing breed trailing nose down like a hound, at least I don't.

If we were talking about hunting a crop field or thicket for grouse, pheasants, or chukars, I'd agree. But I'm talking about a dog that's been bred for generations to specifically target turkeys in the fall. She has great eyesight hunting ability already, I'm mostly concerned with her picking up a trail of birds that may be a few hours old and following it, instinct will kick in once she spots the flock. Anyway, that's what I am concentrating on with her right now.

Draging a chuskar will still put a scent trail (scent cone) in the air, there is no reason a pointing breed should hunt with its nose to the ground when there is scent in the air. There is a chance what what you think is the dog using its eyes is the dog using its nose. A bird that stinks as much as a turkey does leaves scent molecules in the air that stay for a long time, you need to understand how certain breeds follow scent. You can train your dog any way you want but a turkey dog surely doesn't need to hunt like a hound and training a dog to go against its breeding ( head up) just may be counter productive.

(Sigh)....why do I waste my time and money talking to turkey doggers and working with reputable trainers, when all I have to do is come on this website and wait for pearls of wisdom like this???:pcwhack:

John Byrne, who is considered the "father" of the turkey dog breeders, intentionally bred Plott hounds into his line of dogs, for scent tracking abilities. http://blog.havalon.com/fall-turkey-hunting-with-dogs/

Jdecountryboy- sorry for hijacking your thread.