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Originally Posted by mustad
(Post 3646762)
I never said labs weren't athletic.
Based on your lack of knowledge of hunt tests, I really don't think you have any basis to an opinion that holds any value other than pure speculation. At the same time, you're all over the place on your argument. So now you're saying that shooting clay pigeons has nothing to do with hunting? Under the same argument, sighting in a scope has nothing to with deer hunting? Yet walking in the woods looking for antler sheds is hunting? I think you have a different definition of hunting than I. That's great that you work with rescue dogs, but frankly your time would be better spent shutting down those Amish puppy mills in the first place along with probably 75% of the lab breeders that are producing dogs which have no purpose to exist in the first place other than to generate a few bucks. You are truly blind if you don't see the issue regarding aggression within the lab population. I have to believe you have a defence mechanism up here. I have read many articles that show examples of dogs that have been aggressive. If you can't acknowledge this as a serious temperament issue, you have problems. I wonder if that dog ended up getting bred. Let's keep churning those pups out because the AKC needs the registration $$'s. They would probably have gotten the dog's hips checked, but what the heck. It's perfectly normal for a dog not to be able to walk because it's hip joints fall apart. No reason to try to control that process. Now that's a great scenario. Don't worry about my bro. He's been enlightened to the fact that a popularity contest doesn't result in the best outcome. And no a 3D, clay pigeon shoot or hunt test is not hunting. As far as labs being aggressive, every breed of dog can be aggressive but labs are considered to be the best breed of dog to be a family pet. (Thats why they are by far the most popular breed of dog on the planet.) Unfortunately we have to euthanize dogs of every breed because their owners no longer can trust them because of their aggressive behavior, as well as quarantine dogs for 10 days because they bit someone, but labs are no more aggressive than any other sporting breed. As far as me having a defense mechanism when discussing labs, I have none, they are not even my favorite sporting breed, but they are the most versatile. And Like I said, I will get your bro ANY BREED of dog he desires, and pick out a pup for him that has a strong drive to hunt. Here is a link to a thread on a another forum. After reading thru it, there is no doubt that the lab is the most popular sporting breed for hunters. Pike http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1225483 |
It's been awhile since I checked this thread out, seems like I haven't been gone at all. I like the pics the lab guys posted on here, some are truly pointing such as the black lab in the pheasant pen. My GSP would have been locked up stiff outside the door and I would have had to carry him inside to get him that close to take such a pic. He will not move when on point especially if he sees the bird or smells it right in front of his nose.
Back to what I said earlier I have hunted with guys who had Labs of "pointing bloodlines". Most times I would separate from them or take my dog back to the truck to keep their dogs from setting back my dog in his training. Then when their dogs started mouth breathing and not finding any birds, I'd get Gunner and he would point birds in every field they just worked having found nothing. I know there are guys out there with exceptional labs that would be a pleasure to hunt with, I just haven't met one yet that does anything but flush and retrieve. Not saying flushing is a bad thing, it's what some prefer, I just like watching the discipline of a well trained Pointing breed. A well trained Lab would be expected to run the field, search for birds and run in their direction busting them into the air and then retrieving. That's great, just not what I prefer in most cases. I like having my dog communicate with me and showing me where the bird is not just with his nose but also his eyes (kind of like a guy nodding in the direction of a good looking girl to his buddy) I have spent enough time training him that I can tell by his body language what he wants me to do in order to get the bird in the air so I can shoot it and then release him for a retrieve not just go chasing after it. I guess it comes down to me preferring an intelligent breed that is in large part more intelligent than labs as a whole- due to inbreeding and genetic defect. I have owned Labs in the past but never will again. They are stubborn and just harder to train (in most instances) some of you got lucky but your average lab is eating it's own crap and chewing up the couch despite having been scolded numerous times for it. They got brawn and are rugged in build and if I were to put a human character to them I would say they would be Adam Sandler in the movie Water Boy, simple minded but happy and don't know why. |
Wow, 4ever.....
first off, I was taking him to the bird pen for OB work, he was at heel as I opened the pen door, we stepped in and he locked, I also put a pic of him pointing a bird head high tail high from over 20 yards. He has been around pen raised birds enough that he for the most part ignores the scent when it is connected to crate scent as well. he knows that then pen is there and runs to it every time we are at my dads house, this was the first time he was in it. I posted that pic for the guy that said a lab would not point if he saw the bird.... If other breeds are so intelligent, way are labs the only sporting breed used for guide dogs? I would argue that guide dogs are the most highly trainined animals there are. Not bad for a inbred genetically defective breed.... Overbreeding has been brought up. I will be the first to admit that there are loads of "breeders' breeding labs that should not be bred. For the sake of this discussion, those of us defending the labs are talking about field bred labs bred for a purpose, not the back yard breeder that sellhis puppies in teh newspaper for 2oo bucks. MUSTAD< I used pit bulls as an example, because they are accepted aggrissive as a breed. My point was that there are so many labs that they could have a very low incidence rate, and still have more incidents then a less popular breed. I was not sayin gthat they are less aggressive then other sporting breeds, only that quoting the number of incidents is not a valid stat to compare. How many other sporting breeds are house pets? There for they have far less "oppritunity" to have an incident. It boils down to you have to know your dog, every dog can be provoked. More labs just end up in the hands of idiots that probably don't know dogs. From that standpoint, I envy some of the other breeds lack of popularity. FwIW A friend of mine has five labs and a pointer in the house (and a very understanding wife) the pointer wears a muzzle at ALL times. Back to the origninal question, all around house dog duck dog bird dog shed hunting dog what ever you want to train a dog to do DOG, a WELL BRED lab is very difficult to beat. What you MAY give up with a lab in early season grouse hunting you more then gain back be being able to hunt open water in single digit temps.... |
so lets get this straight, when we post pics or video when you can't see the bird the response is "well how do we know he was pointing a bird or there was not some one giving a visual cue f camara" if the birds are in view, it is "my dog would have been locked up way before then"
I'll say it again, the dogs know the difference between pen and wild birds and will point wild birds expotentially farther away then pen raised...... |
Originally Posted by J Pike
(Post 3646938)
I am around more dogs and owners that compete in hunt test's on a daily basis than you are, and many of those dogs will never participate in an actual hunt.
And no a 3D, clay pigeon shoot or hunt test is not hunting. As far as labs being aggressive, every breed of dog can be aggressive but labs are considered to be the best breed of dog to be a family pet. (Thats why they are by far the most popular breed of dog on the planet.) Unfortunately we have to euthanize dogs of every breed because their owners no longer can trust them because of their aggressive behavior, as well as quarantine dogs for 10 days because they bit someone, but labs are no more aggressive than any other sporting breed. As far as me having a defense mechanism when discussing labs, I have none, they are not even my favorite sporting breed, but they are the most versatile. And Like I said, I will get your bro ANY BREED of dog he desires, and pick out a pup for him that has a strong drive to hunt. Here is a link to a thread on a another forum. After reading thru it, there is no doubt that the lab is the most popular sporting breed for hunters. Pike http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1225483 Which hunt tests have you been to and what dogs have you seen? Have you trained any hunting dogs? What have you trained them to do? Have you judged any? Have you hunted over any? Which ones? Names. I don't believe you know as much as you claim you know. I never said clay pigeon shoots were hunting. You claimed specifically that they had nothing to do with hunting. This is what I disagree with. To some extent, I agree that they are similar to some of the hunt tests, but to say they have nothing to do with hunting is erroneous. To say they can't provide a tremendous amount of information to aid us in hunting is also erroneous. Stop talking out of your arse. If you really believe that the labs temperament is as stable as other hunting breeds, you have blinders on. It just isn't the case. I challenge you to show me a single case where either a Pudelpointer, Wirehaired Griffon, Spinone, Deutsche Drahthaar, Deutsche Kurzhaar, GWP or GSP has killed a child. Show me ONE example. So, in your world; you come upon a dog that kills a kid, and the best way to deal with this is destroy the dog and move on? No analysis into what the littermates are doing? No look into the dog's genetic history to find out where this issue is coming from? Ah right, there's no reason to try to find solutions to potential problems caused by genetics. It costs too much and lowers the profit margin. Let's just stick them in rescue homes and pretend the problem doesn't exist. Frankly, this is a joke. A lab is a versatile dog for sure. If I liked hunting over flushing dogs, it would be at the top of my list. I have already said this. It's just that I like pointing dogs, which a lab isn't. I've never said that a lab isn't versatile. I think this horse has been beaten. I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about and this dialog has gone far beyond the definition of waste of time. If you need to see yourself say you know something, continue on. I've got more important things to do. Cheers. |
Originally Posted by mustad
(Post 3647017)
Again Pike, you are talking out of your arse and change your message to suit your argument.
Which hunt tests have you been to and what dogs have you seen? Have you trained any hunting dogs? What have you trained them to do? Have you judged any? Have you hunted over any? Which ones? Names. I don't believe you know as much as you claim you know. I never said clay pigeon shoots were hunting. You claimed specifically that they had nothing to do with hunting. This is what I disagree with. To some extent, I agree that they are similar to some of the hunt tests, but to say they have nothing to do with hunting is erroneous. To say they can't provide a tremendous amount of information to aid us in hunting is also erroneous. Stop talking out of your arse. If you really believe that the labs temperament is as stable as other hunting breeds, you have blinders on. It just isn't the case. I challenge you to show me a single case where either a Pudelpointer, Wirehaired Griffon, Spinone, Deutsche Drahthaar, Deutsche Kurzhaar, GWP or GSP has killed a child. Show me ONE example. So, in your world; you come upon a dog that kills a kid, and the best way to deal with this is destroy the dog and move on? No analysis into what the littermates are doing? No look into the dog's genetic history to find out where this issue is coming from? Ah right, there's no reason to try to find solutions to potential problems caused by genetics. It costs too much and lowers the profit margin. Let's just stick them in rescue homes and pretend the problem doesn't exist. Frankly, this is a joke. A lab is a versatile dog for sure. If I liked hunting over flushing dogs, it would be at the top of my list. I have already said this. It's just that I like pointing dogs, which a lab isn't. I've never said that a lab isn't versatile. I think this horse has been beaten. I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about and this dialog has gone far beyond the definition of waste of time. If you need to see yourself say you know something, continue on. I've got more important things to do. Cheers. What have I trained hunting dogs to do?? I have trained beagles to hunt rabbits whe I was young, I have trained my lab/pitbull mix to track wounded game/blood. I have trained labs to hunt waterfowl, I have trained Labs and GSP's to hunt upland bird and pheasant hunt. I have also coon hunted over dogs aswell as pigs in FL., And you already know about training my lab to hunt antlers. Also do not spin my words!! I never said that hunt tests were not a training tool, they are similar to other training tools like 3D shoots and clay pigeon shoots. I just said they are not hunting and many of the dogs that compete in them unfortunately will never participate in an actual hunt because their owners are non hunters. And yes, if a client demands that their dog is destroyed we do it, depending on the situation we will offer to take the dog to work with it to see if we can find it a home that doesnt have kids or other pets. And yes the lab has been over breed for decades but I see it everyday with every type of breed. Breeders come in and want x-ray after x-ray of their dogs hips and elbows in order to pick the best one's to send in. In my opinion every breed of dog is going down hill due to puppy mills and back yard breeders because there is far more of them than there is legit breeders and the average person that wants to buy a puppy doesnt know any better, after all what could be better than to load the family into the mini van take a drive and spend the day in amish country and pick out a new puppy?? Sounds like the perfect family day right? You see the problem? You asked why I dont try to get amish puppy mills shut down?? Heck they dont even pay taxes, never participated in a draft etc. and you think the Dept of Ag. is going to stop them from breeding puppies. The amish and back yard breeders are not just breeding labs, they are breeding every type of popular breed. Now you said your definition of hunting is probably different than mine, I would agree with that 100%!! Here in PA. hunting is a way of life not just a hobby like in your region of New England where very few of you hunt. Pike |
Mustad, you are apparently ignoring the fact that some lab breeders do spend a great deal of time researching pedigrees, littermates of parents, littermates and otheroffspring of grandparents in making breeding decisions. I will agree that there are a lot of labs bred that little if any homework was done, BUT you mentioned that there are 100 150 breeders producing about that many m=puppies from what you consider "REAL" versitile dogs. I would virtually garuntee that there are twice that many people that put just as much research into their lab breedings as that. I said it before, you can not compare the backyard bred lab to the standard that you are trying to use. Look at well bred labs from good reputable breeders. GOODDOG INFO.com exists soley for people to research lines of labs to make breeding decisions.... there are people that do it.
How can you make the arguement that a dog is the best all around when there is only a chance for 100- 150 people per year to get one. I have bot said this up to this point because I don't like to throw a breed under the bus for one bad dog, but a friend of mine bought a Drahthaar. Dog has myestenia Gravis ( a neurological disorder) and is on 200 dollar per month meds and has to eat 80 dollar per bag dog food. So should we say that they all have health problems because one dog has them? No, I wouldn't, but apparently you have no problems doing it. |
my lab toby came from local breeder here in pa.wetland-retrievers.gary trys to raise small labs,not 100 pd ones.
toby is 75 pds.cost 400 dollars here is good/ bad on toby. lets start with good things. he hunts hard tough and not afraid of anything he looks for me all time, i like that hunts 20 yds in front of me will hunt anything i want him to even at over 7 yrs old listens and trained easy, i am no trainer of dogs good watch dog at home came from hunting stock now bad sheds hair had toe removed due to tumor BITES if anyone puts their fingers near his mouth. tires out fairly quick in fall heat do to heavy coats on labs now i have seen backyard breeder labs eat poo as was said lab does.i seen bad hips etc on many of those labs.vet office is full of them but most were NOT hunting labs,they were house type labs and most were over weight bigtime. my vet did say he is seeing more AGGRESSIVE labs lately,he has 3 himself.he said,SPROUL BACKYARD BREEDING....... but i have seen many health problems on full pedigree dogs. tobys tumor was beigign.vet said labs get tumors in their toes,toby did and i had TOE removed.now he has 12 tumors all over him. tumors will start at 7 yrs old per vets.most if not all of tobys are not cancerous....... BUT AS ALL AROUND DOG I STILL LIKE THE SMALL LONG LEGGED AMERICAN HUNTING LAB. THIS IS MY FIRST AND I WILL BE LOOKING AT ANOTHER DOG IN ABOUT 3/4 YRS.POINTING LAB I WANT TO LOOK AT .......... |
Originally Posted by limiman12
(Post 3647148)
Mustad, you are apparently ignoring the fact that some lab breeders do spend a great deal of time researching pedigrees, littermates of parents, littermates and otheroffspring of grandparents in making breeding decisions. I will agree that there are a lot of labs bred that little if any homework was done, BUT you mentioned that there are 100 150 breeders producing about that many m=puppies from what you consider "REAL" versitile dogs. I would virtually garuntee that there are twice that many people that put just as much research into their lab breedings as that. I said it before, you can not compare the backyard bred lab to the standard that you are trying to use. Look at well bred labs from good reputable breeders. GOODDOG INFO.com exists soley for people to research lines of labs to make breeding decisions.... there are people that do it.
How can you make the arguement that a dog is the best all around when there is only a chance for 100- 150 people per year to get one. I have bot said this up to this point because I don't like to throw a breed under the bus for one bad dog, but a friend of mine bought a Drahthaar. Dog has myestenia Gravis ( a neurological disorder) and is on 200 dollar per month meds and has to eat 80 dollar per bag dog food. So should we say that they all have health problems because one dog has them? No, I wouldn't, but apparently you have no problems doing it. 1 was boxer other was ****you both did not make 7 yrs old.boxer had cancer and ****syou have kidney failure. all VERY EXPENSIVE DOGS AND ALL FROM BACKYARD BREEDERS. folks many are not having the parents checked out on health and some are lying on it too. her MIX BREED dog is healthy as heck.never a vet bill other than teeth cleaning and lyme shots etc. |
If you pay high dollar(relative term, are we talking 1500 or do you consider 250 high dollar) for a dog without health clearences, or without checking into the dog more then reading an ad, you are accepting risk. I SAID IT BEFORE
A well non breeder does not make them reputable or ethical. Mutts as a whole do tend to have less recessive trait probelms because of the fact they are mutts... |
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