Choosing a birddog breed????
 

Howdy All, I have worked with all types and breeds of dogs for a variety of uses. One thing I have never done is choose a working breed for my own purposes.
I have had rather unexpected luck with an unlikely candidate for a bird dog. If any of you have seen my Opening season thread you know that my "bird dog" is a Chinook X Alaskan Husky/ Timberwolf male who I have not trained (except off leash obedience) at all. He learned everything from a buddies Visla, including his latest trick, retrieving. On our last outing he bested the Visla 11 birds to 3 :confused:.
Before my WD is too old I would like to get a pup for he and I to train. I have experience with (1 each) a GSP, Brittany, Visla, Springer, Gordon Setter, a few labs and Irish Setters. They were all amazing dogs in their own right.

How do you choose a breed/pup from so many options? I do live in a very cold, mountainous place!

Thanks!

dogs
 

Alot of variables: What do you hunt the most, What type of cover, to an extent do you prefer a pointer, flusher, retriever.

Alot of variables:
What do you hunt the most?
I mostly hunt Ruffed and Dusky Grouse. Would also like to hunt Huns, Chukars and Pheasant.

What type of cover?
Tight cover in the timber and willow bottoms.Also some sage hills.

to an extent do you prefer a pointer, flusher, retriever?
No real preference right now. I have hunted over all of them. My WD just flushes. It's pretty fast and furious. He just surprisingly, retrieved a bird. Might like a dog that points though?

Choosing a versatile pointing dog breed can be done with some research. The most popular is the GSP - but with a cold climate you might want to consider a German Wirehair or a Wirehaired Griffon or a Pudel Pointer.

However what breed you pick is purely up to you. Any dog, as you found out, can be trained to hunt.

But today's versatile breeds - well they are bred for certain hunting characteristics such as conformation, pointing, demeanor, desire - lots of things are looked at.

Aftere you have narrowed down to a few breeds call the folks the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Assoc as they might be able to give you a list of breeders for just about any pointing breed in your area.

NAVHDA's [hilosphy is to help you train your own versatile pointing dog on both land and water and this is accomplished at the NAVHDA chapter level.

Google - NAVHDA.org

Or drop me a PM.

My breed of choice is the GWP. Trained to hunt on both land and water as stated above.

JW

Thanks JW!

dog
 

From what you say I would recomend a gsp, viszla or their wirehaired cousin. A Brittney might also be a good choice.

I've heard good things about english setters for grouse. Of course, (obviously) my choice would be Vizsla!

Thanks for the replies!
I've been doing a bit of reading and considering. Tell me what you think please?
It gets REAL COLD here and winter starts in Oct/Nov and can run into June. Temps can get well below zero. So short coated dogs are out. My buddy's Visla freezes in temps my dogs are still panting in.
So I'm thinking wirehairs or setters?

I'm super athletic! I'm a professional backcountry skier and spend most of my life in the mountains all year round. So a dog that needs a lot exercise is a plus. My dogs are my companions and go with me pretty much everywhere, unless it is very warm out.

In my limited experience it seems the GWP is a heartier dog than the Setter. Am I correct on this?

GWP's and English Setters are real popular here. Haven't seen any Brittany Spaniels that were hunting dogs. Just house pets. Has to be a reason?

I have a very laid back disposition and don't get too excited over dog stuff. Not as tolerant of people as I am of dogs. I have had great success training dogs all my life.


I want to take my time, do the most with the dog I have and use him to get the next dog going in the right direction. I got very lucky with my bird hunting WD and it re-ignited the bird hunting flame in me. I know getting a well bred pup could take a while and I'm great with that as I have a ton to learn myself as well as steer my WD in the right direction.

Plus I have to ease into this with the lady of the house. ;):happy0001:

IYO- Which would you choose if you were me? What gender and why?

JW said it, do the research as you are doing now, and for the life of me I do not know why you are saying short coated dogs are out yes it gets cold in Idaho, it get cold in allot of other places also. There are a couple breeds that do very well in the cold and their coat is short, dense for insulation and sheds water pretty darn good.
Is there any breeders of GWP or setters near you? best folks to talk to about the breed. If possible, is there anyone you know that owns any of the dogs you are thinking of? go on a hunt with them see first hand.

For myself, I think, no I know I have the best of both worlds, I have a Lab that points, he also doesn't hesitate to get in the water when it is freezing and he has ice hanging off his tail and whiskers. In the upland field it he is just a joy to watch. Yes I am partial to Labs, I have hunted them up in North Eastern California, to the East Coast now and had no issues with the climate.

Good luck.

Because I have seen first hand dogs like GSP's, Visla, English/American Pointers, Wiemaraners and even Labs shivering just in everyday life here. In Dec.'07 the warmest day we had for the month was -8F. Temps like that are common in winter.

dogs
 

I would advise you to go with some type of wirehaired dog if you want a pointing dog. Or a Cheasapeake bay retriever if you want a retriever. Cheasapeakes love the cold, they have gotten a bad rap about there temperment. Mine is great with people and other dogs.
My pointers do just fine in South Dakota every year. Sure they are a little cold to begin with, but once they get to moving they are fine. Daytime temps are anywhere from -20 F to 30 F. I put a neoprene vest on them and they are great.

Thanks! Advice well taken!
I think I am going to focus on studying the pedigrees of the Verein Deutsch Drahthaar. I really like the goals of the VDD-GNA in their breeding programs and there are a number of breeders within driving distance of me. I think it would be an ideal dog for my energy level. Perhaps in a spring or two I will have my pup and future hunting/life companion. Have a lot to learn in the meantime!!!!!!!

Thanks again.

I would place a call into a guy in Boise named Bob Farris. Tell him you found his number written on the local Wal-Mart bathroom wall (it's an inside joke between him and I).

Bob is the largest breeder of Pudelpointers in North America. You would have a very difficult time finding anyone in Idaho who hunts more birds than him. He'll give you a perspective from a great breeder who hunts a ton in your area.

A DD would also be an excellent choice and totally agree with what you say about their breeding goals.

Good luck

dog
 

I believe there was an episode of "American Gundog" that fetured Bob Farris. I know the guy was in Boise, and am pretty sure about the name.

He appears to have a very tried and true program.

Thanks much! I'll do that. Wal-Mart eh? O.K. :cool2:

I have seen alot of Brittanies hunting up here as well as several other breeds including a german shorthaired pointer. They all do good in thier own way. I concider the fact if you have children at home or not also as well as the shedding aspect. I am one that chooses the Irish Setters because of teenage children and the dogs attitude. I love the way they hunt, one is a flusher locater and the other is a pointer and both retrieves good for me.. So that is something you yourself have to decide on what you like in a birddog..

Thanks Phil! No kids here and shedding is a non-issue as I already have two sleddogs in the house. Dog hair is already everywhere.

I have narrowed it down to the VDD. I like their breeding goals very much. I tend to be very anti-AKC. The breeds versatility is very appealing as I enjoy rabbit, hare and bird hunting. The athleticism is a must since my dogs mountain bike and backcountry ski with me. There a quite a few breeders within a days drive of my home.

My next decision is deciding on a breeder and picking a gender?
I've heard males train easier? Any thoughts on gender choice?

Well then that's OK, but here is something that is a little versatile that I am not sure if you are aware of or not. You see the irish does need lots of exercise..they love the water... Dog sledding is just a past time for them..

That's a great pic Phil! Love it! Thanks for sharing.

I am very much a fan of the Irish Setter! I'm part Irish for one. My best friends growing up had 3 of them and we shot a lot of birds, squirrels and rabbits over them. They swam in some very cold water to retrieve ducks and geese to our hands. One of their dogs in particular took it upon herself to school my first bird dog (a GSP) in the ways of the trade. They are very near and dear to my heart. They were our companions on many adventures.

The downsides are;
1. Dogs with their coat type have a horrible time with painful snowballs in our deep powder snow.

Wire haired breeds do quite well here.

2. Many are registered with the AKC, whom I am very much not a fan of! IMO-Vanity breeding on any level is disgusting and criminal!

I am very much in agreement with the breeding goals of the VDD-GNA.

3. There are no breeders close to me that I have found.

There are 9 VDD-GNA breeders within a days drive of me. Experiencing dogs (parents) and puppies first hand is important to me. I'm not new to dogs just out of practice in raising and training a bird dog.

Wlfdg - sent you a PM.

JW

Couldn't be happier with my Pudelpointer. Call Bob....he'll at least lead you in the right direction for a versatile breed if the PP isn't up your alley.

This is the second time you mention the breeding goals of the VDD. The breeding goals of the VDD are almost identical to those of the VPP (Verein Pudelpointer), the VDL (Verein Deutsch Langhaar), VDK (Verein Deutsche Kurzhaar) and others.

They are based on the use of the JGHV as the testing system along with various breed confirmation aspects. With the exception of the VDK, I believe the only difference between the goals and regulations of each club are in the confirmation aspects given the breed confirmation is not the same between each breed.

I think getting the FCI pedigree is a great idea (which is what you will get if you purchase a pup from any of these breed clubs) as it allows you to play in virtually any game you want (JGHV, NAVHDA, AF, NSTRA, CKC, AKC, etc...)

I bring this up only for you to realize that the breeding goals are really not a differentiator among the breeds.

The DD is a great breed and I have many friends that own them. The VDD is the largest of the JGHV based breed clubs anywhere; which is probably why you find breeders in your area. However, if you find that another breed is a better fit for you; you should be able to find a breeder or group of breeders with the same goal as those of the VDD.

Good luck.

I mean no offense, really.

In the quote you chose I laid out my reasons for choosing to focus on the VDD. I realize that there are other breeds/breeders focused on similar goals.

The close proximity is a big motivator. Bob Farris and Chris Clark are within driving distance but live clear across the state from me. Which is a 2 day drive really.

There are VDD breeders in Evanston and Rock Springs,WY. That's less than 6 hrs. There are 2 in Ogden,UT. That's under 6 hrs. from me as well.

It seems to me the VDD is a good fit. I'm not new to the dog world. Heck I'm not new to the bird dog world either. Just not current on all that is going on in it. The Langhaar has the same kind of coat as a Setter. Not good in powder snow. I've seen many shorthaired dogs like the Kurzhaar, shiver uncontrollably in our cold regardless what others say about it. I am a professional backcountry skier and my dogs go skiing with me. I'm sure the Pudelpointer is a great dog! It certainly has a great coat. Like I said above, Bob Farris is in Boise and Chris Clark is in McCall. That's 3-4 days round trip as opposed to 1 day round trip. I live on the Wyoming/Idaho border. Literally!

I truly appreciate your recommendations and your time.
Thank You

When I look at your quote (although I do in fact realize you have stated more) you asked a question on how we pick our bird dogs.. It seems apparent to me that you really have asked a wrong question. As it appears to me you already have known what you want. I also realize over here in Me. we have our share of deep snow. Just like the pic I posted with those setters running in dog sled races. For some unknown reason they actually win alot of the races they are in.. I guess you must be right snow bothers them.. But my question to you is why did you ask a question about how we choose our birddogs when in fact you do not appear to want any of the answers..

Phil, My question evolved as time went on. JW and birddog3412 got me pointed in the direction of a wirehaired breed. Then I started doing my research. Which narrowed my focus down to what I was looking for and what was available to me in my general area. This narrowed my view down to the VDD due to the combination of desirable qualities and proximity of breeders. Which I stated in a previous post. Then I followed up with a question of choosing gender which I am still pondering on.

I know Maine has deep snow. Sleddogs rarely race in deep powder snow. Backcountry skiing is very different than mushing. No groomed trails for the dogs to run on.

Thanks very much for your time.

All dogs shiver no matter what the coat length is.....their way of keeping warm on cold wet days.

I have owned & trained both male and female. Had good and bad with both sexes as some where harder to train than others.

But lately I prefer a female and a spayed one at that. I am not a breeder but just a hunter.

Males have a tendency to mark their territory more. I have found females a bit harder to train than males.

But that is just me and my opinion.

JW

Thanks JW!

I must remind myself not to post on your threads anymore.. I know you know that Maine is nothing more than packed trail and the like.. With over 200 inches of snow the last 2 years here it surely must all be packed..
Take care and good luck...

I often wondered why I do not see Might, Doc E, Jonsey, just to name a few that no longer post on here..

Thanks Phil! Sorry I some how disappointed you. I meant no offense. :rolleye0011:

My best dog for Pheasant and Grouse is a black labrador retriever who is currently 16 yrs old and still hunting but getting slooow.
He has been kenneled outside all his life and sleeps in an insulated box attached to a building.
I live in Ontario,Canada and it gets cold enough out here.
He has never been sick and just flushed birds(robins,field birds, etc. naturally when he was a pup. I would say my vote is for a Black Lab with bird dog genetics(pheasant hunting background).My other choice is a Springer Spaniel or a Golden Retriever. This dogs are adapted to cold weather. There are some Labs that points also. I found that out unexpectedly with my NEW dog.
Good luck on your quest.

Thanks Huntrfishr!

my black lab is american lab.he weights around 80 pds.he is not best at grouse or pheasants or rabbits or turkeys.but he hunts them all and can handle cold.i have him out in feb at 10 above with no trouble at all.his feet are very strong.he can swim in any water cold/warm.will break thru ice and swim out .can walk thru swamp water.

his hair is no problem after hunting. i just use a beach towel to dry him.very little hair in house and no burrs on him after hunting.he will not back down from bear,
bobcat,fox,big housecats,coyotes.

he does not point,he flushes.he hunts within 20 yds all time, NO COLLAR to find him.he does not chase deer.he is looking for me all the time not me looking for him.
he is great at home,will catch a frisbee or ball.
so you can see there is more to hunting than just having best GROUSE breed.there is weather,how the dog hunts and stays with you, how they do in storms, wind, water, cold,heat, around gunshots,other dogs,people.

lab is very good dog for listening to you,they train easy, good at home,will give up their life for you .here is few pics of tobys brothers /sisters.notice they are american labs.hope this helps and pick dog that does all those things and not the best breed for hunting a certain game. take care.

www.wetland-retrievers.com

Thanks Sproulman

I have had 3 males and 4 females what I have found is that there doesn't seem to be an :easier" sex. I have also had experiance with AKC breedings along with German breedings. The differance here sems to be that the German breedings seem to have more prey drive in relationship to cooperation. Both breedings have great trainability. So as you can see there is no good answer for you which sex question. If you have male dogs in the house adding a male may tend to start "marking" contests for this reason my wife has limited me to 1 male in the house at a time :)

Good Luck with your future pup DD's are a great breed.

Thanks jodis girls! Really appreciate that input.

dude of the examples you listed i like labs their the most loyal

bird dog choices
 

Why not look into the Spinoni Italiani? They love the cold do not have the odor of the other breeds because they have the dry skin (not oily) are a versitle breed for both fur and feather and land and water. Have the wire hair that cleans off easily and doesn't hold burrs. About 2 minutes checking/combing after hunt mostly to check for injuries or lodged objects in paws and pits. Very docile in the house and all day hunting machines.

Busy B's Spinoni

There are 2 Spinone breeders near my house so I have inquired with them. I'm not a fan of the AKC though. "Vanity is the deadliest of the 7 Deadly Sins" Show breeding in any form really turns me off!

I live in northern MN, Internation Falls MN is the coldest average temp in the lower 48. Fact. Im about 2 hrs south of there. My last 2 dogs were GSP. They do fine. Give them a little shelter, one of mine lived in the house one didnt.

Thanks TeeJay!
My cold temp concern isn't about housing.

I am a professional backcountry snowboarder. I do research and development for a ski and snowboard company. My dogs snowboard with me. I am obliged to be out in the most inhospitable conditions possible to test equipment.

For example- I had a day in Dec.'07 when my climbing skins wouldn't stick to my bases. Essentially we were stranded until I could defrost the skin glue. It was -22F. My dogs curled up and took a nap in the snow while I defrosted my skins inside my jacket. I know that only dogs like my current ones will be comfortable under those conditions. They don't shiver even at -40F. I want a dog that doesn't need to be left home when I'm working.