Help with training
 

I got two 1/2 black lab and 1/2 vizla (spelling?) just before christmas and I have never trained or owned a hunting dog. I know the labs are good hunters and have heard the vizla is too, they are not afraid of the guns going off and they seem to like to chase birds and they have been seeming more prone to stop and look at the bird before jumping in after them.

I would appreciate any help in how I should go about training them right. I cannot afford an actual trainer so that is not an option for me.

RE: Help with training
 

!. Check my screen name for the correct spelling.
2. Read ALOT of books. There are a ton of them out there.
3. Get those dogs out in the field & make it as fun as possible. Whatever training you do, save the real work for the "yard" for at least the first six months. Get them out in the fields & woods & make it fun! Build up their confidence in the field. Its also a good idea to keep them on a 50' check cord while you're starting out & for as long as seems necessary. My Vizsla, Zoomie is 3 years old, & the check cord is still part of my training kit, although seldom used.
4. Whatever training methods you use, stay consistent!

RE: Help with training
 

I have been working with them out in the field and they do good but in the yard they show no interest in fetching for any period of time. One of my boys gunner he seems more into the whole hunting aspect while shooter likes to follow gunner and do what he is doing. I guess that is not a bad thing but I am curious as to what steps to take to get them more on pointing than chasing.

RE: Help with training
 

So upon reading up on some training I am finding out that not all dogs will point!? So now that I know that my dogs are flushers and that I should use a check cord to keep them at 50 feet. Any other things that may help me keep them close besides a shock collar?

RE: Help with training
 

Vizslas tend to point rather naturally, labs can go either way... As far as gettting them to point, it can be done, but I'm not sure on the particulars. The first bird that was shot over my dog, I had my father in law help. We planted the bird & let him find it by scent. At that point, he wanted to break & chase the bird, but I got down & held him in place while my f-i-l kicked up & shot the bird. Then I let him go to "fetch" the bird (we still don't have that part down pat). Do this several times w/ each dog (individually), they just might catch on & figure out that they're supposed to wait for you. Once they start to understand the concept, NEVER shoot at a flushed bird! They need to understand that if they "bump" the bird before they're supposed to, that is bad & they don't get the reward of the shot & a mouth full of feathers.
In order to "bold up" the follower, try taking each dog out by himself for a while.

RE: Help with training
 

Thanks vince! I am not sure if it is a point or what they are doing but when they are seeing the quail running on the ground they stop and either their front left or right paw comes up in the general direction of where they are seeing the bird. They are about 6 1/2 months old and they love to run after anything that flies. I am going to try the 50 foot leash to get them more accustomed to being closer to me but they do not like to be on any leash. So far they are walked without one, we have a huge open feild right by our house and loads of quail, doves, and a few hungarian partraige frequent the area, so they have loads of game to chase, but I do not shoot at anything seeing as there are houses within 600 yards or so. Is there any good way to keep them from wanting to chase everything that flies (butterflies, bees, ect)?

RE: Help with training
 

What you describe sounds like a point to me. If I be you I would try to encourage this intinct in your dog. After all half of the dog is a pointing breed and labs have been trained to point. There are may books out there that can help you train a pointing dog Bill Tarrant is a good author. If this is the route you choose to use I would not use the check cord to keep your dog 50 ft away, pointing dogs should get out minimum 50 yards don't pull them in. Pointing dog traininers use the check cord to hold when the dog gets "birdy" and keep them from chasing. As far a butterflies and bugs puppies will chase them but don't offer praise or punishment when they do and they should grow out of it. If it gets excessive a simple "lets go" or "come on" will get their minds off it. Usually this is a sign of bordom.

Good luck with the training I wish I had your good fortune to have a large field with wild game to train on, you are one lucky man.

RE: Help with training
 

Well thank you for the complement, I find myself wanting to try and force training on them but they seem to take to it naturally, so at this point I am thinking that maybe I should just let them do what they are doing and just work on their listening, or obeying commands, that is where I am having the most difficulty, is with them not wanting to stay or not run off after birds or anything else that moves. Is there any good way to get them to listen better? They are pretty good but once the bird takes flight they are gone.

RE: Help with training
 

For now, let them chase. The check cord is really to reinforce "here" or "come". When you want one of them to come toyou, call him & "reel" him in. When he gets to you, give him lots of praise for doing what you wanted him to do.Otherwise, let them drag the cord behind them w/o holding it. Let them run & be puppies for a good while! The best training advice I can give you right now is "SHUT UP!"
As far as them not liking leashes, TOO BAD! You're the boss, not them! They will get accustomed toit as long as you don't give them a choice in the matter. But keep the serious stuff out of the field for now.

RE: Help with training
 

I have to respectfully disagree with you on ths one Vince. I would not allow chasing anymore, It seems that the dogs have the idea that they are looking for birds and they should stop when scenting them. By letting them chase at this age I feel you will be encouraging a behavior you are going to want to stop in a month or so. By 6-8 months I expect my pups to hold point until I get to the bird and flush it. It is not perfect every time but the lenght of time on point should be increasing.

ADV I think that 60-70% of your time right now should be dedicated to the "whoa" and "come" commands. You are correct thinking that obediance is the key and these commnds are priceless for you. In the next few months pups are going to test you and you will need the tools to pass your test. There's no substitute for leash and collar training and will be the foundation of the training you us in the field. Remember you are the leader of the "pack" make them listen to you.

RE: Help with training
 

They are about 6 months old now! They do listen for the most part but as I have stated before I have been walking them with no leash, they behave better for me with out it. That said I will be putting them on the leash... Now as for a leash should I be using one that is 4 or 5 foot long or should I make longer one out of rope???

RE: Help with training
 

I use a 6' cotton lead and a choke collar to start obediance with. As I progress with come I use longer and longer leads (rope) up to about 25'. I find that longer than that I get tangled in them. The choke collar works for me me use the pinch style collars but I do not like them. Obediance can also be done with a stought leather or nylon collar but I find the corrections have to be made forceful to be as effective as the choke stlye. I also incorporate the use of an E collar with my training after the pups understand what i being asked of them.

RE: Help with training
 

Well I guess I am gonna have to break down and buy an electronic collar and go that route as today I had one of my dogs run off after a bird and chased it for about 700 yards and he would not listen to me and come back. I had tried the long rope but I had the same issue with getting tangled up in the rope and they kept crossing each others lines so I spent more time being aggravated at myself for getting into that position. I am thinking that maybe next time I should just take one out at a time for the obedience lessons so that they are not so prone to play with each other and not listen to me.

RE: Help with training
 

That is why a check cord comes into play so that you can stop it from giving chase at a time that is undesirable. I have tried the choke collar route but that didn't work very well for me. It was not the pinch type though. What happened was one of my setters ran back towards me and then made a sharp turn and ran away. By doing this it broke the choke collar and it left some pretty rough looking neck area.I wouldn't use one ever since. The e-collar is great to use if used right. It is an extention to a check cord.I would recommend using a check cord first and also some obediance classes as well. Get a decent DVD and watch it for a while. They all show some important forms of training.
Good luck to you..

RE: Help with training
 

You'll have better luck working your pups by themselves. There is really nothing to gain from working them together at this point in their lives. It only creates a cluster which you seem to have experienced already.

RE: Help with training
 

I would recommend after this weekends fun that you train one dog at a time and not allow them in the field together until you have them under control. I would also recomend that you stay out of the field and concentrate on "yard" work. This is were you work your foundation commands. Come and whoa, Only after your pups understand these commands should you use an Ecollar.

As a clarification I do not use or recommend a choke collar in the field. This is for obediance work in the yard or house only, it is too dangerous for the field. A good quality leather or nylon collar in the field will do you well.

Keep at it

RE: Help with training
 

I agree, training them seperately will help you out a lot. Having your dog/s paying attention to you instead of each other.. Once they are trained up then you can run them together if you wish to. I trained both my Irish Setters howeverI trained 1 to flush and the other to point. The reason being 1 would be a locator the afternoon before I went hunting. If I shot a bird or 2 on the flush so be it. The real intention was to locate birds to make it easier the next morning. I hunt mostly roughgrouse though up here though.

RE: Help with training
 

So are your dogs family pets or just hunting dogs? I have heard that it is bad for them to be an inside dog; is there any basis behind that? My boys are like one of the family kinda like my 4th and 5th kids, I couldn't just shove them out into a kennel and leave them there like I see some people doing. I will try the check cord (made from nylon rope) and spend more time one on one working with on at a time, that will be way less work for me as they tend to feed off of one anothers hyperactivity. Who would have guessed that training pups would be this much work???!!! I love it though!!!

RE: Help with training
 

I am not an advocate of keeping my trial dogs in the house. I don't think it will ruin them but here are a couple reasons why. First I like to keep dogs out on the concrete for their feet. If a dog spends 80% of his life on your carpet then his feet are going to be soft. Second the relationship I have with my dogs is a partnership where I am in charge and I think that with some dogs being inside can blur that relationship. Third a lot high drive birddogs can be destructive and I don't want them in the house messing up stuff. Just a couple thoughts. I have hunted behind other guy's house dogs and they were fine but most did slip pads and break toe nails quite often where mine never do.

RE: Help with training
 

My dogs are inside, but only while I am at home. Then we do spend a lot of time out in the field, getting them to swim and run and chase, just letting them be pups. I have been trying to work with them daily on commands as come, stay, heel and so on but once we hit the field all that is gone when they see a bird on the ground or in flight. I am glad that they take such interest in birds but I am not having much luck with them not chasing them forever once the bird takes flight. I am worried that this might get them shot later on while hunting, and I really don't want them to chase deer, as they have already taken after a badger that I had to jump in after them once they got it cornered in some thick brush, talk about a bad situation. I think the one on one attention might help do the trick and maybe they will get the point. Any good suggestions on ways to get them to stop digging up my yard??? I have tried burring balloons where they are digging to get the pop to scare them and detour the digging but it has had the opposite effect. I try not to leave them out there to get bored but it happens as they are puppies and I"m just looking for a way or ways to get them to stop digging...

RE: Help with training
 

Mine are inside during the night and kept outside most of the day.I have found no problems with keeping them inside at all. When we go out for the hunting parts they already know who they will respond to. So not an issue for me. For as far as being soft?I have not found that to be the case. When they run a pace of 18 miles an hour when excersized running down a dirt road for around 10 milesI guessI do not have to worry none about it. That helps to keep thier energy worn down. That is the biggest issue you might find is getting rid of some energy. Once you find a way to do that training will become much easier for you as well.

That will definately help you out. Also as stated above getting some sort of exercise for them to help calm them down before training will give you a big plus as well. Good luck to you on your training..

RE: Help with training
 

Thanks I'll try that this evening!!! Any help with the digging problem???

RE: Help with training
 

I can only recommend that you put some large rocks where they have been digging. I put some pretty heavey rocks where ever they did and it helps some but does not stop them. It's part of being a dog if they can did they are going to.

RE: Help with training
 

I have read that labs dig by instinct; something bred into them from living in Labrador they dig down to get heat from the earth. I have read different approaches to try and stop them from digging but I believe that it is just boredom. I run them daily but I think that they need more activity. I am also wondering about treats or rewards as a training tool?, is it a good idea or bad???

RE: Help with training
 

I also think digging a place to lie in helps them cool off on a hot summers day..

For as far as treats go i would stay away from that. Instead reward them with a god pat and keep telling them how good they are. Most hunting dogs only really want to be rewarded this way IMO. After all you wouldn't want to be carry a bag of treats with you out hunting. If they do something wrong tell them no or to get down. But most of all try and make it fun for you and the pups. Ifone gets tired of it after 15 to 30 mins. Put that one up for a little while why you work on the other one. They normally will give up on the training after a little while while you build on them. This will pass after they get the idea better.

RE: Help with training
 

Cool thanks for all the input.

RE: Help with training
 

During the day our dogs (5) are out but when we are not home they have crates. I think it helps with bonding. I would encourage you to have one or the other out with you as much as possible.
The check cord can help here. Until you get the obediance down I would work on planted birds instead of wild. This way you can enforce your steadiness.
I have had some luck with placing the poop of the offending dog in the hole. Also if you can catch them in the act grab the scruff an give a good shake with a firm NO.

Good Training

RE: Help with training
 

Thanks I'll give that a try Jodi!!!!

RE: Help with training
 

Have you decided if you are going to train them as flushers or pointers yet? This will determine what range you want them to hunt. Most dogs have that small flash point youre seeing before they pounce in. That does not always mean you will have a pointer. It took a lot of talented people a lot of time to line breed the prolonged pointing instinct into dogs. You have recieved a lot of good info. here. It sounds like they have plenty of prey drive and desire. That is a good time to start your backyard obedience commands. Dont be too harsh. Dont yell. Be consistent doing and requesting everything the same every time so your pups understand what you want from them. If you lose your temper, put pup up and start freshly with the other dog. Before putting a dog up end your session with something he knows how to do and can accomplish. Then praise him with love. If he messes up on a session, do something he can do before putting him up. Keep lessons short (20-30 mins) at least once a day, and always fun and youll have dogs that are eager to get out and learn. I.M.O. choke collars should be outlawed! Ive seen a lot of nasty damage done by them. Try to avoid. If needed use a pinch collar for yard training on heel,sit,& down.
If you are going to have flushers, Start you search pattern training with them using the checkcord to enforce the qaurtering pattern. ONLY RUN 1 Dog at a time or youll waste a lot of time and patience. When they can finally run this search pattern in front of you on thier own, Find a supply of training quil or homing pgeons. Carry a bird bag with you and if pup gets too far out, get his attention as you throw a bird out of the bag (imitate a wild flush). This will start making pup think birds are close to you. Remember, yard work should be done already so that when he wants to chase, youve inforced the COME command. Dont jump back to birds untill you are having consistent results with commands. If you are going to try to inforce the pointing instinct, thats a whole different style of training.
Remember that both the Lab and Vizsla love water! Find a nearby pond or lake and try some water retrieves. It is excellent exercize. Also try to harness your dogs and road them some. Between the water work and the roading you may see thier digging decline. (not always, some dig just to dig). Most of all, WELCOME to the fun world of dog training.Good luck!