RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Mite,
You know alot about the history of these dogs.
However, you have no clue of what is happing now

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

True. I do not know what some breeders may be doing or crossbreeding with puppymills, backyard breeders, etc. popping up all over the place. But then who would? But I do know registered Llews lines are kept pure due the DNA testing required. Both parents must be DNA tested before any of the puppies are allowed to be registered. Case in point: Al King brought over a Russian strain of Llews but was not allowed to register them because the line was questionable, ie. DNA test was unclear.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

I'm sure you have your fingers right on the pulse of thefuture of the dog world. I think your view is narrow minded and rigid to the versitality of the breeds. I breed and train dogs and have found that with the proper motovation youcan get them to do whatever you ask of them. Albeit, thehistory and selective breedingis what gives them the genetic ability to have certain traits more prominant then others ie. good nose, drive and desire to retrieve. You only limit yourself and your dog by having such a view.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Mite,
What I was referring to when I said that it is rumored that many of today's Field-Bred Springers were crossed with Llewellins to supposedly improve their nose and give them better legs is something that supposedly has taken place in recent history (the 1950's and 1960's). I was not referring to the development of the breeds as we know them today. The point being, who really knows what goes on when dogs are bred (especially before DNA testing)?

How long have Llewellins been DNA tested before pups can be registered with the FDSB? I had a Llewellin that I registered with FDSB about 10 years ago and there was no DNA testing requirement then. I really don't know a lot about how DNA testing works. I know that with people they can determine paternity, but with dogs I don't know how they determine an entire line by DNA testing.... So, what you are saying is that there is no way another English Setter that is not pure Llewellin could have been used by a breeder in the past 100 years or more? How can they prove that? Many of today's English Setters that are not pure Llewellins have a lot of Llewellin blood in them. I guess we need to get a genetics expert to join the forum. ;)

I'm aware that a Springer is a flushing dog.....I've raised them for 18 years. Many various breeds were used to develop today's breeds. As an example, the Gordon Setter was developed by crossing Setters and Bloodhounds (and there was even a collie introduced into the breed prior to 1900).

I've always questioned the Deadgrass colored Chesapeakes (I raise Chesapeakes also). The original Chespeakes were dark brown or dark reddish brown, from what I've read. The history of the breed states that in the 1920's and 1930's some hunters in the midwest developed the "Deadgrass" color to better blend in with the marshes they hunted. Now, like I said, I'm the furthest thing from a genetics expert but how do you develop a deadgrass color (some are almost the color of a blonde or yellow lab) from a line of dogs that are all dark brown or dark reddish brown? If I were a betting man, I'd be willing to bet that someone did some"behind the barn"breeding between some Chessies and some yellow labs to come up with the the Deadgrass color, but who really knows? All I know is that if you mix dark brown paint with dark reddish brown paint you'll never come up with light yellow. :)

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

this is what I've read:


The English Setter was originally bred to set or point upland game birds. From the best available information, it appears that the English Setter was a trained bird dog in England more than 400 years ago. There is evidence that the English Setter originated in crosses of the Spanish Pointer, large Water Spaniel, and Springer Spaniel, which combined to produce an excellent bird dog with a high degree of proficiency in finding and pointing game in open country. The modern English Setter owes its appearance to Mr. Edward Laverack (1800-1877), who developed his own strain of the breed by careful inbreeding during the 19th century in England and to another Englishman, Mr. R. Purcell Llewellin (1840-1925), who based his strain upon Laverack's and developed the working Setter. Today, you still hear the term Llewellin Setter, but this is not a separate breed. Instead, it is often used as an alternate name for a field-bred English Setter.
With time, Laverack inbred successfully to produce beautiful representatives of the breed. The first show for English Setters was held in 1859 at Newcastle-on-Tyne. The breed's popularity soared across England as shows became more and more widespread. Not long after, the first English Setters were brought to North America, including those that began the now-famous Llewellin strain recorded in the writing of Dr. William A Burette. From this group of dogs came the foundation of the field-trial setter in America, "Count Noble," who is currently mounted in the Carnegie Museum at Pittsburgh. At present, the English is one of the most popular and elegant sporting breeds, often grouped with its cousins, the Irish and Gordon Setters.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Yep, that's what I've read too. The Field Dog Stud Book does recognize the Llewellin Setter as a separate breed from the English Setter, however the American Kennel Club does not. I personally think it is splitting hairs. I know of no one who could look at a mix of 25 Llewellins and 25 English Setters and be able to tell you which is which. If they have to use DNA testing to determine if a dog is a Llewellin or and English Setter, that should give us a pretty good clue.

This all makes for an interesting discussion, but I don't really care if a particular breed has been influenced bysome "behind the barn" activity or not. What I really care about is if a dog can do the job I want it to do, if it is healthy, has a good temperament, is trainable, etc. When it comes to anything related to history, all is questionable. Don't believe everything you read. ;)

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

I've also read that particular article. Ipersonally(FDSB would too) would apply a particular distinction, namely Laverak-Duke-Rhoebe cross as a Llewellin. A article, albeit a colored one, can be found: http://www.llewellin.com/whatis.htm

I'm prolly too bold to make such a statement as Llewellin strain being pure.Perhaps, we do need a genetic expert in here.

On a side note, I do know that some are thinking to resurrect Count Noble by use of his DNA.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Ya, a bit "colored" for sure, but interesting reading. I question the statement about Llewellins having the best noses. I'm not saying they don't, but rating a dog's scenting ability is very subjective. Some dogs learn to use their noses better than others, some dogs have more scent receptors, etc. I've read that Gordon Settershave the best noses of the pointing breeds because of the bloodhound influence in their genes. Whether this is true or not, I haven't a clue. Who really knows what a dog is smelling and what it isn't?

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

I just bought a Llewellin puppy, brought her home last night...she has pointed my cat three times already this morning, at 8 weeks old!

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Like Gene Hill once wrote, "Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot little puppies". Now,try arguing that one!!! :)