Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Bird Dogs have a specfic job, To Find Birds on the ground.
Retrievers have a specfic job, To Retrieve downed birds.

There is no way that a Pointer or a Setter will everbe abetter retriever than a Lab for water fowl or Doves.
On the Same Hand, A Lab will never be a good as a Pointer or Setter at findingUpland Game Birds.
Each Breed of Dog has a specfic purpuse. Some are Versital and others are not.
Alot of Dogs have been altered over the yearsthroughselective breeding.
Irish Setters = almost completly ruined by the AKC by breeding for looks. Today most hunting Irish Setters have a small streak of white
From breeding to English Setters to put more drive and bird sense into a hunting breed that was almost lost.
GSP= bred to English Pointers to put more run and drive for field trials you can see this as so many GSPs are almost completly white.
English Pointers= bred to walker hounds to put more stamina and run in back in 60s when Setters dominated the sport
English Setters= bred to pointers ro make Setters more competive in FeildTrials in the 70s and 80s
Brittanys= bred to Setters to give them an edge in trials as well

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Dale-

I have to think you just don't get out very much into the field if you think what you wrote above is an absolute "fact". I admit that as a generality Pointer and Setters are better upland hunters than Labs, but I know and have hunted with DOZENS of "labs" that were far better hunters and upland dogs than some Pointers and Setters I have seen in the field. I have also seen Setter's and Springers retrieve waterfowl far better than a lot of Labs. Dogs are as different from each other within breed as people.

Instead of trying to fire up people stating thatsome breeds aren't good upland hunters... maybe spend a little time working dogs for the upcoming season?

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Dale, Todays Irish have some white but NOT from the English
Setter but from the original Irish the Irish Red and White Setter
There is a cross with English known as the Red Setter and are
in no way the same as the Irish Setters in looks at all. It is
because of the show and the new breedings that are making the
Irish Setter even harder to get today. As with all good breeds they
have to be protected too. As IMO there is nothing like owning a
real Irish Hunting dog. Here is a pic. of an Irish/Red and
White cross.





If you go back into the early days of the Irish Setter alot
of them had a small bit of white in them. That was
discourage back then but not anymore as the ancestors
are in fact the Irish Red and White Setters. And the Irish
Red and Whites do in fact have the drive. And these old
style Irish also have the drive.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Here are a few corrections: Brittanys were not bred to setters to compete in field trails, they derived from the same spaniel back in the early 1500s.

Setters were not bred to pointers. You can get any good setter line like tomoka, tekoa, ryman, etcand trace it back to the early 1900's. I have a Llewellin and studied setter history. My dog has ancestry can be traced to 1880's back to the Duke-Lavarek-Rhoebe cross from England.

If there were cross breeding, then it was done under auspicious circumstances and hidden from the various registries. Hence, it was not widely done.

Also, posting such a post will geteveryone's hackles up. We are here to discuss various aspects of differing breeds, help people out, and ask questions and NOT aboutstirring everyone up.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Amen to that

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

I just had this conversation lat night. A guy told me, "labs aren't good in the field." Now , I have hunted with great labs and chessies. I can say that a good labs can do everything a pointer does. It's a matter of prefrence. I like retievers, but I do think that pointers are good at hunting. Check put Shadow Mountain and Black Forest Kennels out of Colorado. The blood lines and titles should tell you something.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

All we really know in regards to how the various breeds were developed is what we read or what someone tells us. Who really knows what dogwas bred to who "out behind the barn"? I've heard a lot of what Dale is saying many times in regards to various breeds being bred to other breeds (such as German Shorthairs being crossed with Pointers). I've heard that some of our Field-Bred Springer lines were crossed with Llwellin Setters in Great Britain years ago to "give them more leg and improve their noses". Is this true? I have no idea. It really doesn't matter to me..... I think it all adds a little mystique to the history of the various breeds.

In regards to retrievers and bird dogs, most breeds are somewhat of a comprimise but most of us cannot own several different breeds to meet the specific needs of the different game we hunt. So, sometimes we sacrifice a little on the retrieving end for a nice point, and vice versa.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

www.vdd-gna.org


They point, they retrieve on land and water feather or fur, they blood track, they dispatch vermin, they have a pretty much maintenence-free, light-shedding coat, and they will nail your ass to the wall if you come into their house late in the night.


Are they a Miller-type, stylish runnin pointer - nope. Will they take a blind out to 400 yards and hold a line -- nope. Can you hunt geese in the morning, pheasants at noon, and then go blood track your buddies too-far back-hit deer. Yep. I don't consider them a compromise.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

"Comprimise": Depends on what a person's priorities are I suppose. I'm with you for the most part.....if a dog can get the job done for me, there's nothing to comprimise. My Chessies and Springers "get r done" just fine for the hunting I do.A hard flush and a great retrieve are just as perty to me as an Elhew Pointer locked up on point. I suspect most of us prefer a "Jack of all Trades, Master of none" type of dog.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Nope. The springer and brittany and what we know today as the setter derived from a spaniel long ago. The setter and brittany carry somewhat closer roots around the 1500's. The history is not very well known because dogsthen where referred to the place they originated (like the Northcumberland spaniel) and owners did not keep strict records. It was not until the mid-1800s when registries started recording pedigrees and when they started labelling specific breeds.

But on another note: the springer is traditionally a flushing dog whereas the setter is a pointing dog.

As to Llewellins, when I say known history, I mean specific pedigreehas been recorded in the FDSB registry since 1880s. I could order the actual blueprint of my dog's sire and dam, grandsire and granddam, etc. all the way back to Count Noble who was the first Grand National Champion and who is now 'resting' in the National Bird Dog Museum. Llewellin's are also DNA tested prior to giving birth or they can't be registered. (They also have Count Noble DNA signature to compare it too.)

Personally, I only hunt upland birds. I don't hunt deer, waterfowl, etc. anymore so, when choosing a dog, I choose one with a longhistory. Partlybecause of nostalgia, partly because I grew up with setters and that's why I love them so much.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Mite,
You know alot about the history of these dogs.
However, you have no clue of what is happing now

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

True. I do not know what some breeders may be doing or crossbreeding with puppymills, backyard breeders, etc. popping up all over the place. But then who would? But I do know registered Llews lines are kept pure due the DNA testing required. Both parents must be DNA tested before any of the puppies are allowed to be registered. Case in point: Al King brought over a Russian strain of Llews but was not allowed to register them because the line was questionable, ie. DNA test was unclear.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

I'm sure you have your fingers right on the pulse of thefuture of the dog world. I think your view is narrow minded and rigid to the versitality of the breeds. I breed and train dogs and have found that with the proper motovation youcan get them to do whatever you ask of them. Albeit, thehistory and selective breedingis what gives them the genetic ability to have certain traits more prominant then others ie. good nose, drive and desire to retrieve. You only limit yourself and your dog by having such a view.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Mite,
What I was referring to when I said that it is rumored that many of today's Field-Bred Springers were crossed with Llewellins to supposedly improve their nose and give them better legs is something that supposedly has taken place in recent history (the 1950's and 1960's). I was not referring to the development of the breeds as we know them today. The point being, who really knows what goes on when dogs are bred (especially before DNA testing)?

How long have Llewellins been DNA tested before pups can be registered with the FDSB? I had a Llewellin that I registered with FDSB about 10 years ago and there was no DNA testing requirement then. I really don't know a lot about how DNA testing works. I know that with people they can determine paternity, but with dogs I don't know how they determine an entire line by DNA testing.... So, what you are saying is that there is no way another English Setter that is not pure Llewellin could have been used by a breeder in the past 100 years or more? How can they prove that? Many of today's English Setters that are not pure Llewellins have a lot of Llewellin blood in them. I guess we need to get a genetics expert to join the forum. ;)

I'm aware that a Springer is a flushing dog.....I've raised them for 18 years. Many various breeds were used to develop today's breeds. As an example, the Gordon Setter was developed by crossing Setters and Bloodhounds (and there was even a collie introduced into the breed prior to 1900).

I've always questioned the Deadgrass colored Chesapeakes (I raise Chesapeakes also). The original Chespeakes were dark brown or dark reddish brown, from what I've read. The history of the breed states that in the 1920's and 1930's some hunters in the midwest developed the "Deadgrass" color to better blend in with the marshes they hunted. Now, like I said, I'm the furthest thing from a genetics expert but how do you develop a deadgrass color (some are almost the color of a blonde or yellow lab) from a line of dogs that are all dark brown or dark reddish brown? If I were a betting man, I'd be willing to bet that someone did some"behind the barn"breeding between some Chessies and some yellow labs to come up with the the Deadgrass color, but who really knows? All I know is that if you mix dark brown paint with dark reddish brown paint you'll never come up with light yellow. :)

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

this is what I've read:


The English Setter was originally bred to set or point upland game birds. From the best available information, it appears that the English Setter was a trained bird dog in England more than 400 years ago. There is evidence that the English Setter originated in crosses of the Spanish Pointer, large Water Spaniel, and Springer Spaniel, which combined to produce an excellent bird dog with a high degree of proficiency in finding and pointing game in open country. The modern English Setter owes its appearance to Mr. Edward Laverack (1800-1877), who developed his own strain of the breed by careful inbreeding during the 19th century in England and to another Englishman, Mr. R. Purcell Llewellin (1840-1925), who based his strain upon Laverack's and developed the working Setter. Today, you still hear the term Llewellin Setter, but this is not a separate breed. Instead, it is often used as an alternate name for a field-bred English Setter.
With time, Laverack inbred successfully to produce beautiful representatives of the breed. The first show for English Setters was held in 1859 at Newcastle-on-Tyne. The breed's popularity soared across England as shows became more and more widespread. Not long after, the first English Setters were brought to North America, including those that began the now-famous Llewellin strain recorded in the writing of Dr. William A Burette. From this group of dogs came the foundation of the field-trial setter in America, "Count Noble," who is currently mounted in the Carnegie Museum at Pittsburgh. At present, the English is one of the most popular and elegant sporting breeds, often grouped with its cousins, the Irish and Gordon Setters.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Yep, that's what I've read too. The Field Dog Stud Book does recognize the Llewellin Setter as a separate breed from the English Setter, however the American Kennel Club does not. I personally think it is splitting hairs. I know of no one who could look at a mix of 25 Llewellins and 25 English Setters and be able to tell you which is which. If they have to use DNA testing to determine if a dog is a Llewellin or and English Setter, that should give us a pretty good clue.

This all makes for an interesting discussion, but I don't really care if a particular breed has been influenced bysome "behind the barn" activity or not. What I really care about is if a dog can do the job I want it to do, if it is healthy, has a good temperament, is trainable, etc. When it comes to anything related to history, all is questionable. Don't believe everything you read. ;)

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

I've also read that particular article. Ipersonally(FDSB would too) would apply a particular distinction, namely Laverak-Duke-Rhoebe cross as a Llewellin. A article, albeit a colored one, can be found: http://www.llewellin.com/whatis.htm

I'm prolly too bold to make such a statement as Llewellin strain being pure.Perhaps, we do need a genetic expert in here.

On a side note, I do know that some are thinking to resurrect Count Noble by use of his DNA.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Ya, a bit "colored" for sure, but interesting reading. I question the statement about Llewellins having the best noses. I'm not saying they don't, but rating a dog's scenting ability is very subjective. Some dogs learn to use their noses better than others, some dogs have more scent receptors, etc. I've read that Gordon Settershave the best noses of the pointing breeds because of the bloodhound influence in their genes. Whether this is true or not, I haven't a clue. Who really knows what a dog is smelling and what it isn't?

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

I just bought a Llewellin puppy, brought her home last night...she has pointed my cat three times already this morning, at 8 weeks old!

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Like Gene Hill once wrote, "Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot little puppies". Now,try arguing that one!!! :)

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

My dog has brown eyebrows. Alot of setters have brown eyebrows. Gordon setters have brown eyebrows. Actually, Laverack interbred his dogs to gordons, hence brown eyebrows.

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

I still stand behind my original statement....

There are labs out there that hunt the snot out of upland birds and there are pointers that couldn't find a bird on a thanksgiving table.

I love dogs and also am interested in their origins but the potential of the breed is not realized in every pup that is for sure. Case in point, this comingweekend NH's season opens. There will be a guy out in the fileds who WILL limit out on pheasant and grouse hunting behind a pointing German Shepherd! That dog retrieves to hand with the softest mouth I have ever seen. Now German Shepherds are not bred to be "hunters", but you can't deny this particular dog is a hunter.

I believe strongly they are alljust "dogs" when you bring them home, they get the title of "Hunting Dog" by what they do in the field....

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

Does anyone know why Daleh is so angry??

RE: Bird Dogs and Retrievers
 

True. If you step back and think about it, all dogs descended from predators so it would seem that most dogs regardless of breed have a certain degree of hunt and retrieve in them (I don't know about some of the tiny lapdogs, but I'm sure they have it in them somewhere or another).

I dont know how true it is, but I've read that if you took all dogs and turned them loose in the wild and let nature take its course, ina matter of about 10 generations all the dogs in the colder climates would soon look like wolves and coyotes and the dogs in the warmer climates would look like dingos and those wild African dogs. Anything not able to survive would be culled out by natural selection very quickly......survival of the fittest. It's hard for me to believe that could occur in 10 generations, but it makes sense that over the course of time it would occur.