Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
01-06-2006, 02:02 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: the Great Plains
Posts: 351
Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
First let me start off by saying that I think all types of dog hunting are good, whether for feather or fur, but I have noticed some stark differences between my "breed" of dog men and some others.
I see a lot of hype about pure breeds, keeping strains pure, holding breeding rights, and so on. It is amazing to me how many people look upon a cross-bred sporting dog or gundog with disgain. I believe this is all hype and generally comes from people who don't understand the big picture of genetics and dog breeding.
Some people seem to think it is only acceptable to breed purebreds and register them, as if paying a registry to keep track of the line somehow makes their puppies better dogs than others.
I don't get involved in that because I don't buy it. I hunt a breed of dog that has only had a registry since the 1950s. Before that, there was no major registry or even any breed standard to adhere to. What you had with this breed was a heavy mixing pot of likely many types of farm dogs. The breed is "new," so varying traits show up among the dogs. These dogs excel at treeing and also baying, but are used as yard dogs and cattle dogs as well.
Among treedog men, particularly cur and fiest dog men as opposed to houndsmen, the prevailing method for breeding is to breed the right good dogs to the right good dogs to get good dogs. This could mean breeding curs to feists or hounds, or mixing curs within the various cur dog registries (OMCBA, KSBA, ATFA, etc.). Registries are used and are important to treedog men, and many will stay within their registry so that the pups can be registered and and can compete within the registry competitions, but crossbreeding is not such a big no-no among them. For example, I am interested in introducing brittany blood into a line of curs that I have that are already a little birdy. Big deal in my eyes, but some people would flip out over this and call the pups mutts, even though those pups, if well-planned, could be better meat dogs than most.
On a side note, I am a newspaper reporter, and I did a story on a young girl who received an assistance dog that was a labrador x golden retriever cross. The group that breeds these assistance dogs make the lab x golden cross intentionally because such "mutts" apparently excel at assisting handicapped individuals.
This to me, though not hunting dog-related, is a good example of breeding the right good dogs to the right good dogs to get the right dogs. But to some people, a lab x golden is just a mutt.
I would venture to say that a well-planned cross between the right Labrador line and the right Chessie line would produce some fine retrievers. I bet the right beagle line crossed on the right basset hound line would produce some gundog delux rabbit dogs and the right mountain cur line crossed with the right plott hound our Bluetick Hound line would make some jam-up squirrel and coon dogs. But because you can't register them (except for the cur x hound cross),some people tend to be condescending toward such a crosses. Why? That is so dumb, especially if you are developing a line of dog that excels atits job.
This is just something I've noticed and found interesting. I understand wanting to preserve certain breeds by not introducing outside blood, but I also see nothing wrong with breeding good dogs to good dogs when they match up well, whether they are of like breed or not. You are not ruining any breeds' chance of being preservedby doing this as long as you don't register a mixed litter and let them infiltrate the registries. All breeds start with some mixed blood. That is right. Everyone of our precious "pure-bloods" that we value so highly for being pure blood come from ancestries that, though perhaps very far back up the family tree, contain mixed blood.I for one am proud to own a meat dog from a line of dogs that do well on squirrel and coon and sometimes even bear and hogs. My dog will even point quail on occasion. It is not a bad thing that his gene pool is wide and deep.
Just some food for thought and discussion. I say breed good dog to good dog when it comes to treedogs, but I understand of course why that can't be done in every case because traits and lines have to match up just right to produce the right pups. Does anybody see where I come from?
I see a lot of hype about pure breeds, keeping strains pure, holding breeding rights, and so on. It is amazing to me how many people look upon a cross-bred sporting dog or gundog with disgain. I believe this is all hype and generally comes from people who don't understand the big picture of genetics and dog breeding.
Some people seem to think it is only acceptable to breed purebreds and register them, as if paying a registry to keep track of the line somehow makes their puppies better dogs than others.
I don't get involved in that because I don't buy it. I hunt a breed of dog that has only had a registry since the 1950s. Before that, there was no major registry or even any breed standard to adhere to. What you had with this breed was a heavy mixing pot of likely many types of farm dogs. The breed is "new," so varying traits show up among the dogs. These dogs excel at treeing and also baying, but are used as yard dogs and cattle dogs as well.
Among treedog men, particularly cur and fiest dog men as opposed to houndsmen, the prevailing method for breeding is to breed the right good dogs to the right good dogs to get good dogs. This could mean breeding curs to feists or hounds, or mixing curs within the various cur dog registries (OMCBA, KSBA, ATFA, etc.). Registries are used and are important to treedog men, and many will stay within their registry so that the pups can be registered and and can compete within the registry competitions, but crossbreeding is not such a big no-no among them. For example, I am interested in introducing brittany blood into a line of curs that I have that are already a little birdy. Big deal in my eyes, but some people would flip out over this and call the pups mutts, even though those pups, if well-planned, could be better meat dogs than most.
On a side note, I am a newspaper reporter, and I did a story on a young girl who received an assistance dog that was a labrador x golden retriever cross. The group that breeds these assistance dogs make the lab x golden cross intentionally because such "mutts" apparently excel at assisting handicapped individuals.
This to me, though not hunting dog-related, is a good example of breeding the right good dogs to the right good dogs to get the right dogs. But to some people, a lab x golden is just a mutt.
I would venture to say that a well-planned cross between the right Labrador line and the right Chessie line would produce some fine retrievers. I bet the right beagle line crossed on the right basset hound line would produce some gundog delux rabbit dogs and the right mountain cur line crossed with the right plott hound our Bluetick Hound line would make some jam-up squirrel and coon dogs. But because you can't register them (except for the cur x hound cross),some people tend to be condescending toward such a crosses. Why? That is so dumb, especially if you are developing a line of dog that excels atits job.
This is just something I've noticed and found interesting. I understand wanting to preserve certain breeds by not introducing outside blood, but I also see nothing wrong with breeding good dogs to good dogs when they match up well, whether they are of like breed or not. You are not ruining any breeds' chance of being preservedby doing this as long as you don't register a mixed litter and let them infiltrate the registries. All breeds start with some mixed blood. That is right. Everyone of our precious "pure-bloods" that we value so highly for being pure blood come from ancestries that, though perhaps very far back up the family tree, contain mixed blood.I for one am proud to own a meat dog from a line of dogs that do well on squirrel and coon and sometimes even bear and hogs. My dog will even point quail on occasion. It is not a bad thing that his gene pool is wide and deep.
Just some food for thought and discussion. I say breed good dog to good dog when it comes to treedogs, but I understand of course why that can't be done in every case because traits and lines have to match up just right to produce the right pups. Does anybody see where I come from?
01-06-2006, 03:29 AM
#2
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Georgia
Posts: 882
RE: Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
Very definitely, it's been going on around my part of the country for years. For instance, crossing a Brittany with a pointer, or a lab, etc. We call them drops. I have two hunting buddies that on 10 or 15 dogs each for quail, dove, and duck hunting. 90 percent of their dogs are crossed and I'll put their dogs up against any purbreed for hunting ability. We also call them meat dogs (they find the game birds), they are not for field trials or show, but finding the game.
I also own a Lab mix, his line was crossed with a cocker spaniel 3 litters prior. He is a natural retriever, nothing I did, retrieving is just in him. I've also had other dogs that had been crossed and were exceptional hunters.
Hog hunting with dogs is a pretty big deal in my area. The young men that's into hog hunting now days are paying unreal prices for purebreed hog dogs, $1500, $2000, etc. My father and men my age would have laughed at the folks paying money for a hog dog. What we used to do is take any dog, bird dog, german shepherd, bulldogs, etc. anything, take them to the woulds and turn them loose on hog signs, you can bet, one in the bunch would start to trail, then they all get excited and get in on the hunt, when they caught up with the hog, some would bay, some would catch, and some would run off with their tail between their legs. The ones that would hunt were allowed to cross breed, making some of the finest hog dogs you could find. We called them curs, drops, or just dogs. We have even picked up stray dogs at the dump and we would throw them in with the other hog dogs, you wouldn't believe how good some of these dogs turned out to be.
I believe if hunting is in the dog, breeding isn't everything, desire has to be there.
dog1
I also own a Lab mix, his line was crossed with a cocker spaniel 3 litters prior. He is a natural retriever, nothing I did, retrieving is just in him. I've also had other dogs that had been crossed and were exceptional hunters.
Hog hunting with dogs is a pretty big deal in my area. The young men that's into hog hunting now days are paying unreal prices for purebreed hog dogs, $1500, $2000, etc. My father and men my age would have laughed at the folks paying money for a hog dog. What we used to do is take any dog, bird dog, german shepherd, bulldogs, etc. anything, take them to the woulds and turn them loose on hog signs, you can bet, one in the bunch would start to trail, then they all get excited and get in on the hunt, when they caught up with the hog, some would bay, some would catch, and some would run off with their tail between their legs. The ones that would hunt were allowed to cross breed, making some of the finest hog dogs you could find. We called them curs, drops, or just dogs. We have even picked up stray dogs at the dump and we would throw them in with the other hog dogs, you wouldn't believe how good some of these dogs turned out to be.
I believe if hunting is in the dog, breeding isn't everything, desire has to be there.
dog1
01-06-2006, 03:32 AM
#3
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 860
RE: Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
Actually SWOSUMike, Llewellins are perfect examples of this. The Llewellin breedoriginated about the same time as American Field's Field Dog Stud Book (FDSB) registry which is the first registry in the U.S. Llews are considered English Setters with the AKC. The reason Llews have their own designation with FDSB was because they dominated the trail circuit in their heyday. Currently, Llews have to be DNA tested to be registred as a Llew or if crossed with an English Setter; registered as an ES.
The reasons for doing this. Llews generally hold certain traits that hunters like. They hunt close (compared to other setters and pointers) and have 'style'. They also have good noses, gentle dispositions, and easily trained. This foundation is why Llews have survived this long. People, hoping to breed for other traits, have used Llews to crossbreed. Some of the famous setter lines have Llew blood in them. By linebreeding, breeders can keep thefoundation traits still available. As to crossbreeding with setters, I think it's great to be able have a basis to go by. With any other breed,I think that's fine aslong as it's registered other than a Llew.
As you can tell, I own a Llew. I like the fact that Llews won't go the way the Irish setter has gone.Without thevery few breeders of hunting Irish setters, the breed would begone from the hunting world. It took the contentialRed setter blood bring the Irish back (someseparate the Red and Irish). DD's also have a strong breeding program and my hats off to them.
AKC sadly don't differenciate between show and hunting lines. You may find showlines intermingled with hunting lines with any AKC dogs somewhere in the past. This is why everyones constantly pounds out, "Make sure you get a dog from hunting lines".
For me, crossing two breeds for a certain purpose is fine. Llewswere crossed with a Gordon early on. But as I said, let it be a new breedjust as theLlews were started.
The reasons for doing this. Llews generally hold certain traits that hunters like. They hunt close (compared to other setters and pointers) and have 'style'. They also have good noses, gentle dispositions, and easily trained. This foundation is why Llews have survived this long. People, hoping to breed for other traits, have used Llews to crossbreed. Some of the famous setter lines have Llew blood in them. By linebreeding, breeders can keep thefoundation traits still available. As to crossbreeding with setters, I think it's great to be able have a basis to go by. With any other breed,I think that's fine aslong as it's registered other than a Llew.
As you can tell, I own a Llew. I like the fact that Llews won't go the way the Irish setter has gone.Without thevery few breeders of hunting Irish setters, the breed would begone from the hunting world. It took the contentialRed setter blood bring the Irish back (someseparate the Red and Irish). DD's also have a strong breeding program and my hats off to them.
AKC sadly don't differenciate between show and hunting lines. You may find showlines intermingled with hunting lines with any AKC dogs somewhere in the past. This is why everyones constantly pounds out, "Make sure you get a dog from hunting lines".
For me, crossing two breeds for a certain purpose is fine. Llewswere crossed with a Gordon early on. But as I said, let it be a new breedjust as theLlews were started.
01-06-2006, 05:38 AM
#4
Fork Horn
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 138
RE: Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
I will agree to a point.There are many great mutts out there. My grandfather had a wonderful squirrel dog that was a mutt.
If you are breeding a dog and not trying to inprove the breed then why are you breeding. You should allways strive to turn out pups that are better than the parents thru testing like the DD's or strick breeding like some of the other breeds. This is not allways possible but you should try. That being said in the potion that the Bavarians are in at this time with so few in the country is why I fell holding breeding rights, asking that the dogs be tested and trying to keep crosses out is needed. Once there are plently of dogs in this country with more than just a few blood lines then have at it the breed can stand it then. But right now you could completly change the breed if the 3 people in this countrybreeding them all decided to put a cross on them. This is another reason we are trying to import dogs from different countries so that each new blood line we can get started here will have slightly different strong points but they must all be excellent hunters first.
SWOSUMIKE you have it right when you say well-planned and that is the problem most crosses are planned just not well. My hats off to anyone who is willing to truly take the time, pick the right dogs, stay with itfor the long haul and keep records so they will know what all they have done and what crosses get what resultst to improve or change a breed to make it a better hunting dog.
This is just my 2 cents
Wildlands
If you are breeding a dog and not trying to inprove the breed then why are you breeding. You should allways strive to turn out pups that are better than the parents thru testing like the DD's or strick breeding like some of the other breeds. This is not allways possible but you should try. That being said in the potion that the Bavarians are in at this time with so few in the country is why I fell holding breeding rights, asking that the dogs be tested and trying to keep crosses out is needed. Once there are plently of dogs in this country with more than just a few blood lines then have at it the breed can stand it then. But right now you could completly change the breed if the 3 people in this countrybreeding them all decided to put a cross on them. This is another reason we are trying to import dogs from different countries so that each new blood line we can get started here will have slightly different strong points but they must all be excellent hunters first.
SWOSUMIKE you have it right when you say well-planned and that is the problem most crosses are planned just not well. My hats off to anyone who is willing to truly take the time, pick the right dogs, stay with itfor the long haul and keep records so they will know what all they have done and what crosses get what resultst to improve or change a breed to make it a better hunting dog.
This is just my 2 cents
Wildlands
01-06-2006, 12:44 PM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: the Great Plains
Posts: 351
RE: Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
ORIGINAL: wildlands
If you are breeding a dog and not trying to inprove the breed then why are you breeding.
If you are breeding a dog and not trying to inprove the breed then why are you breeding.
Sounds like we all do, as wildlands put it, agree to a point.
Has anyone considered that the most established breeds may not always fit a hunter's needs? Back to squirrel dogs.Tracts of land to hunt are smaller these days and so are backyards. A hound is often too much for a squirrel hunter, and they just plain aren't typically as good at squirrel hunting as are Mountain curs and feists, which are smaller and hunt closer and generally handle different in the woods than a hound. Now there are cur/fiest crosses that have est. lines, and the end result is often a good 30 pound, close hunting, go get 'em squirrel dog that is probably silent on track and doesn't eat a lot of feed or require a huge yard. Perfect for a lot of squirrel hunters in our modern world. Things change as do our needs, so there shouldn't be a taboo about crossing our dogs to meet our changing needs. That what all full bloods are anyway - somebody or a group people's idea to get a "better" dog for their needs. A lot of these cross bred squirrel dogs dogs are called Kemmer hybrids or even Cajun Squirrel Dogs or Treeing Fiest or Treeing Curs and they are registered individually or with their own registries.
I agree if you are going to breeda full bred pairtogether, work carefully to improve the breed, but if your first goal is to breed good dogs, then breeding two of the same breed is going to automatically improve the breed. If you want to cross a good Original Mountain cur onto another one for the purpose of registering them and promoting them for competition and as a good breed, then you've got to breed only the best specimens. Otherwise, there are plenty of good breeders out there that can do the breeding for you and you can just hunt them.
But if you are trying to improve the sport to fit your needs, cross-breeding has its merits, especially if you line-breed from the start and come up with something that works for you and your hunting buddies, getting rid of what you don't like and matching the good ones correctly so the desired traits are expressed in the line of dogs.
Now I guess this stuff is not all that important for me, because I don't plan to breed my dogs unless they prove to be just what I want. Otherwise, there are a lot of good squirrel dog breeders out there who can do the work for me and I can just hunt their lines. I am hunter, not a breeder.
Thanks for all the replies guys. Keep them coming if you like. - MIKE
01-06-2006, 02:14 PM
#6
Join Date: May 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,148
RE: Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
The only thing that a purebred dog has over his crossbed counterpart is consistency. Hopefully, if breeders are careful and thoughtful, the crossbreeding done in the past has produced dogs with desirable traits and then by producing a "true breeding strain" you eliminate the genetic diversity and the guesswork involved in alleles lining up to produce a gentic trait.
The registry allows a way to document such breedings, so hopefully, there is some sort of paper trail to tell which dogs exhibit certain characteristics. Outbreeding should be allowed in my opinion, when required.
Unfortunately, money got involved somewhere, and it quit being about dogs, and started being about egos and money. I would not own another field trial labrador retriever if you paid me to do it. They are, in my opinion, just shy of being completely nuts they are wound so tight. One only has to look at the modern American GSP vs. the Deutsch Kurzhaar to see how money and big $$ field trials has influenced the breed. While the modern shorthair may have an edge in style and range over his Kurzhaar cousin, something is lost in retrieving, blood tracking, etc.
So far, I have been impressed with the JGHV and the vdd as well as NAVHDA. It is a standard by which the dog is judged, not against other dogs. Most of the pups seem to sell for about the same price, which keeps people honest.
The registry allows a way to document such breedings, so hopefully, there is some sort of paper trail to tell which dogs exhibit certain characteristics. Outbreeding should be allowed in my opinion, when required.
Unfortunately, money got involved somewhere, and it quit being about dogs, and started being about egos and money. I would not own another field trial labrador retriever if you paid me to do it. They are, in my opinion, just shy of being completely nuts they are wound so tight. One only has to look at the modern American GSP vs. the Deutsch Kurzhaar to see how money and big $$ field trials has influenced the breed. While the modern shorthair may have an edge in style and range over his Kurzhaar cousin, something is lost in retrieving, blood tracking, etc.
So far, I have been impressed with the JGHV and the vdd as well as NAVHDA. It is a standard by which the dog is judged, not against other dogs. Most of the pups seem to sell for about the same price, which keeps people honest.
01-07-2006, 08:02 AM
#7
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 13
RE: Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
Let me ask you this, and I need to word this right, since there areVERY few "registerable" dogs who were not outcrossed to one extent or another 100 years ago and culled heavy for desirable traits and bred forDECADES to get a uniform standard, enough togive them a name and become a recognizable "purebred" , why would it be an issue now?
Now let me give my .02 why: Nobody has the determination and the time to devote to doing this as well as our ancestors did. Society has changed so much that destroying "undesirable" pups is frowned upon, to most people it is more a hobby than an underlying driving force, and to be brutally honest, most things are done half - assed these days, patience has taken a backseat to instant gratification.
So in my humble opinion it is done more out of curiousity, if it was done purposely in the first place, than anything. I think tree dogs are quite a bit different than bird dogs, and I have both. I wouldn't own a registered hound on purpose and on the same note, I wouldn't own a bird dog that wasn't registered.
(Stepping down from soapbox)
Now let me give my .02 why: Nobody has the determination and the time to devote to doing this as well as our ancestors did. Society has changed so much that destroying "undesirable" pups is frowned upon, to most people it is more a hobby than an underlying driving force, and to be brutally honest, most things are done half - assed these days, patience has taken a backseat to instant gratification.
So in my humble opinion it is done more out of curiousity, if it was done purposely in the first place, than anything. I think tree dogs are quite a bit different than bird dogs, and I have both. I wouldn't own a registered hound on purpose and on the same note, I wouldn't own a bird dog that wasn't registered.
(Stepping down from soapbox)
01-07-2006, 09:09 PM
#8
Typical Buck
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 860
RE: Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
Great thread SWOSUMike. Itmakes people think.
For us birddog people, IMO, most people deal with reputable kennels or hobby breeders. I think that's the main reason why you will have people saying, "No No" to crossbreeding. The variety of breeds also lets people to pick and choose a breed best suited to them. We have retrievers, versitiles, and pointers including crosses like the PLs. There really isn't any need to crossbreed. In the case of Llews, they are just another strain of setter, so xbreeding w/ a setter is still being done today.
I often seedroppers when running my dog. Usually mistakes, but I often wonder how they would hunt, close or far? Point or flush? Would I buy one? Only if you could prove to me that both parents are free of genetic defects and that the dog's hunting ability would suit me.
For us birddog people, IMO, most people deal with reputable kennels or hobby breeders. I think that's the main reason why you will have people saying, "No No" to crossbreeding. The variety of breeds also lets people to pick and choose a breed best suited to them. We have retrievers, versitiles, and pointers including crosses like the PLs. There really isn't any need to crossbreed. In the case of Llews, they are just another strain of setter, so xbreeding w/ a setter is still being done today.
I often seedroppers when running my dog. Usually mistakes, but I often wonder how they would hunt, close or far? Point or flush? Would I buy one? Only if you could prove to me that both parents are free of genetic defects and that the dog's hunting ability would suit me.
01-08-2006, 01:06 AM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: the Great Plains
Posts: 351
RE: Some dog men are so much different than other dog men
Thanks Mite! I thought it could make for some good reading.
Yes, you are right about the variety of birddogs out there. There is bound to be something that suits each hunter among the many breeds of bird dogs, which illiminates a true "need" for crossbreeding.
I guess my big thing is not so much that there is a need for crossbreeding as much as I think it is strange that there are sometimes people that are so arrogant about having a pure breed that they cannot or will not recognize the value that a cross-breed dog can have.
With squirrel dogs, even the mixed up ones can sell for a handsome some. The reason why is because they can get the job done. It takes a particularlyintelligent dog to hunt squirrels, and squirrel hunters know that intelligent dogs come in all kinds of packages. However, the package that includes both an intelligent dog and a strong inclination to track, locate and tree squirrels using eyes, ears, nose and brain is harder to find. The ones that can do it consistently are valued, regardless of purity in the dogs' blood.
There is something different about squirrel dogs, though, that makes a lot more dogs registerable than other sporting dogs, and that is the fact that some "generic" registries exist so that hunters can register their mixed stock and keep track of bloodlines. Mixed curs can be registered as "Treeing Curs" and mixed small fiest dogs can be registered as "Treeing Fiests." They don't have to be "pure." This in effect is creating some lines of dogs that can get it done in the woods without a fancy breed name. They are curs that can tree orfiests that can tree.
Birddogs are a totally different world, I guess, but I wouldn't shy from having a mixed-up birddog if it was from a proven line.
Thanks again for all the replies.
Yes, you are right about the variety of birddogs out there. There is bound to be something that suits each hunter among the many breeds of bird dogs, which illiminates a true "need" for crossbreeding.
I guess my big thing is not so much that there is a need for crossbreeding as much as I think it is strange that there are sometimes people that are so arrogant about having a pure breed that they cannot or will not recognize the value that a cross-breed dog can have.
With squirrel dogs, even the mixed up ones can sell for a handsome some. The reason why is because they can get the job done. It takes a particularlyintelligent dog to hunt squirrels, and squirrel hunters know that intelligent dogs come in all kinds of packages. However, the package that includes both an intelligent dog and a strong inclination to track, locate and tree squirrels using eyes, ears, nose and brain is harder to find. The ones that can do it consistently are valued, regardless of purity in the dogs' blood.
There is something different about squirrel dogs, though, that makes a lot more dogs registerable than other sporting dogs, and that is the fact that some "generic" registries exist so that hunters can register their mixed stock and keep track of bloodlines. Mixed curs can be registered as "Treeing Curs" and mixed small fiest dogs can be registered as "Treeing Fiests." They don't have to be "pure." This in effect is creating some lines of dogs that can get it done in the woods without a fancy breed name. They are curs that can tree orfiests that can tree.
Birddogs are a totally different world, I guess, but I wouldn't shy from having a mixed-up birddog if it was from a proven line.
Thanks again for all the replies.
