Pointing Labs
 

This is just a question, I know what I feel. I figured this one will get everyone wound up. What do you feel? Pointing labs made, or born that way? Now,we didn't start hearinganything about them until approximately 10 years ago. They have always been a flushing dog. Are we taking away from the dog to have some much control, on the dog and bird situation? Pointers it is natural, labs???? Just curious what you feel. Do not care either way. Just curious what all thinks?? I feel this is gonna be good. Now, I know for a fact, I can make a retriever sit at the bird through the flush, and through the shot. Itis hard process. This what is happening for the point? Whatcha think?? Thanks Jonesy

RE: Pointing Labs
 

No, fingers pointed, and no disbelief, just wondering what you thought. Honestly!! Thanks Jonesy

RE: Pointing Labs
 

tailcrakin,

I used to hunt with a guy who had a chocolate lab out of a fathe who was a PL. He NEVER encouraged the dog to point, in fact, since he ran UKC, the dog had to flush.

The lab still pointed, and pointed HARD.

After viewing this, I believe it is genetic in some labs. I also think that some from pointing stock do NOT have any instinct to point, but can have it trained into them, and I think this happens more than you think, but since guys are paying two grand for some of these dogs, no one wants to admit that the dog had no genetic predisposition.

I do not find it hard to believe. Look at the wire haired breeds. LOTS of varaition within a litter sometimes, and two wooly buggers can throw a slick pup.

I do not believe they have the genes locked in well enough yet.

RE: Pointing Labs
 

Okay, now I want all to understand, I personally, am not against this,or for this. This is a topic for everybody to put there 2 cents in!! No offense on anybodies part!! DocE still love ya and I AM NOT against what your dog can do!!! I mean that, this is a topic of discussionthat happens all over the U.S. Just seeing how everybody felt. PLEASE, NO OFFENSE!! Now I have worked several labs that paused right before the flush, a noticable pause. But then again, I have also had some springers do the same. I wonder why?? I have had this discussion with different pro's, They have felt that the dog was deciding what to do. So you think more man made than bred into. I mean, I guess, if we think about it, all the pointing breeds flush some what, before, we teach not to, correct?? Now here's a good one...... Is it worth it to " change " the breed?? And encourage this response. I mean I don't feel nothing better, than to have big ol rooster up under my feet with my lab nipping feathers out?? Thanks Jonesy

RE: Pointing Labs
 

My feeling is that someone wanted a biddable type dog that's not hyper and felt pointing would be nice. I don't mind them but personally would not get one. I now do strictly upland soI got a pure upland dog.

From what I know, labs are not really built to run. They are bred to retrieve. Thick bodies to bust through weed and cattails. Natural swimmers. Excellent marking ability. You can breed them tobe runners like the EP, GSP,Visula, etc. but thenyou will prolly have to sacrifice something else. Running vs. swimming, hyper vs. biddable, marking vs. finding, etc.

Most labs I've seen hunting upland, tend to lop ahead, I've rarely seen a lab quarter but then I haven't seen a PL hunt. I'm use to huntingwith EPs and ESs so when I see a dog that doesn't have his nose down going full bore I tend to ignore it. The dog that loves open country usually catches my eye.

Anyhow, I'm sure Doc E and Wayne1's dogs are very good in the field and better in the cattails. I would love to see a PL hunt but haven't had the opportunity. So, I'll reserve judgement on whether I like them or not.

RE: Pointing Labs
 

.....Mite...If ya ever get a chance to go to a NAHRA Field Test...."GO"....please..!!!..it's a requirement. Think you'd be amazed what a PL can do..:)

RE: Pointing Labs
 

ive got a black lab. and if he sees one while hes tracking, hell get rigid and try to catch it. idk if thats considered pointing. but its fun to watch. haha

RE: Pointing Labs
 

My understanding on Ponting Labs is the pointing tendancy was found to be a desirable trait in a few dogs and this trait was enhanced by breading similar dogs. Pointing, which is just a refinement of stalking, is a natural tendancy of any predatory animal looking for food. In other words, a lab that points is a natural thing that has just been enhanced through breeding.

RE: Pointing Labs
 

1. TRUE PLs are born that way -- it's genetic. As with all pointing dogs, training is for the refinements of what comes naturally.

2. Actually, they have been "bred for" for about 20 years. They definitely have gained in popularity for the last 10 (especially the last 5) years.

3. Nope. Good PLs are competing in Field Trials and doing very well, and the highest levels of Field Tests and Hunt Tests.

4. "Pointing" is natural in almost all predatory animals. About 10% of all Labs from Flushing ancestry will point (naturally) and 80% to 100% of Labs from a good Pointing pedigree will point.

5. Huge difference between training a dog to "stand game" vs. "natural point".

6. See answer #5.



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RE: Pointing Labs
 

All right Doc, Now thats what I was waiting to hear!!! I knew some one would come out of the closet!! Way to go Doc. excellent , excellent post! Thanks Jonesy

RE: Pointing Labs
 

I hate to be so negative, but if you want a true pointing dog, buy a pointing dog! Brittany, GSP, EP, ESS just to name a few. I would not own a dog that does not have style. I am looking for that 12 o'clock tail and the PL's don;t have it! Bill West could take an ordinary lab and get it to point and hold the point as well as many other trainers.

RE: Pointing Labs
 

Yes, I agree just a topic of discussion, You ever see bills video about the labs pointing, lotta tricks in there. Bill is an awsome man, he reminds me of dog telepithy, or dog whisperer. He finally retired from client dogs, still heard he's considering seminar or two, guess we'll see. Thanks, Jonesy

RE: Pointing Labs
 

Many would consider a 'true' pointing breed to be the EnglishSetter and English Pointer in this country and the German Shorthair Pointer along with the Brittany and others are considered versitiles. But I would substitute 'true'with 'pure' as Doc E statedthe pointing instinct is just the natural stalking instinct. My english setter pup won't retrieve, shedoesn't want to even with tennis balls; but ourgoldie will retrieve until she drops.

RE: Pointing Labs
 

Knew that was your stance on the subject....could tell from your origanal thread...why I don't waste my time....hate pot stirer's..[:@]

RE: Pointing Labs
 

Thats where I am goin with out your pot stirring[:@], You think they are made or bred? It is funny out of all the groups in this comp. Nobody can seem to be wrong, or right but everyone is ready to hash it out. It was funny at the start, there were like85 hits on this topicand 2 replies. Amazing, it all comes out in the wash. Thanks Doc E, Mite, porknbeans, and Alaska Magnun the honesty is a virtue. Comment was not anything about buying a dog, or running in compitition, just what you guys thought. I knew what myfeeling was, its funny 157 hits 13 replies, odd. Have great turkey day, Thanks again! " Patience is a Virtue" Jonesy

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Hmmmmmm.........85 hit's....and 2 replies.....kinda tell's me other people could read between the line's also..!!

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Yes, tells me that the people who know, answer, and the one's that don't have a clue......wait till later and hash, So you neversaid, what do you feel? If you read at the start, and not just at the finish, you would see that opinions werewanted. Not to be held against any one. I think its a very good topic, everyone on here seems to know what kinda dog the new guy needs, but yet no one knows how to make or fix the dogs they got that have probs, or don't have probs. I think its great to help others out with dogs problems. Ya know, I hate that I even tried to get a feel for the people that are on here.Who seriously works with he dog, and who sits here waiting to pounce. Itis a shameto try and ruin a good thing, but I guess its parr for the course. Ya know I take my job and proffesion to heart, I have made some awsome dogs, in hunting and comp. I am honest with the dogs, and the owners. So I guess it boils down to ... I don't have any problem sleeping at night. So you obviosily have fixed and done more than me, sorry to upset you with a simple question. OOOPS! Thanks Jonesy

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You must have this thread mixed up with another....This thread was never about helping someone......or fixing a dog problem......it was about pointer's....and you've made it pretty clear about how you feel about Pointing lab's....and since your the expert....why should a peon like me say anything else ..!!

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Your original question was weather or not a PL was natural or not.."Who care's as long as that's what they do....Look's to me like you knew you were gonna stir the pot....then the post came up......your reply was.... I never talk another man dog down...My dog's are my family...and when some one is trying to degrade them...it'll ruffle my feather's.....But then again...Your the expert, so guess you know best. Don't think you'll ever find a post by me stating my dog's better than your.....Mine is just the type I want...just as your's is....man made....natural...I'll settle for what I have. Not looking for a fight...just hate ford verse's chevy, or white verse's black...!...."Happy Thanksgiving"......:) Wayne...a contented PL owner

RE: Pointing Labs
 

There is NO ONE in the dog world, a peon!!!!!!!! ALL THAT WAS ASKED IN THE START OF THIS TOPIC WAS....... WHAT DO YOU THINK! I know what I think I have had, and done both. I was interested in what all thought, everyone on this site has had good ques, and good answers. This whole site is ...what, when, or how... This is where, I, or we all kick in. This site is about helping fellow hunters, or trainers, or just buddies. You're life time member, you should be the one stating this. I have never said anything, or pointed a finger to anyone or any breed on this site. I was just curious how others felt about the breed. Any one knows that if they got a problem or a question I will give the best advice to give, they can e-mail, or phone!! Door is always open, for anyone! I had an ole' colored man in south georgia, the plantation dog man, me and him went for walk, I'll never forget.... He told me that a "true dog trainer will never ever hesitate to share the knowledge he or she knows". And I will always remember that. Ya know that does come out in the wash, becauseI havetrained with alot of the big names in the retriever world , and bird dog world, and none of them have ever hesitated to answer, or help me through a question I have had. You know my door is still open for anyone. And I will NEVER EVER ask a question for discussion on here again. That way NO ONE is offended! Cool?? Thanks Wayne and I am truely sorry this all came down to this. You have had some good posts in the past. Thanks for helping!! Everybody appreciates it, Have a great thanksgiving day, and thank you, Jonesy

RE: Pointing Labs
 

I've never had anything bad to say about someone's favorite breed. Only because I've always hunted behind English setters and english pointers. I've owned a goldie and she didn't really have it to become a hunter even if her siblings did. Years before I could justify getting another dog.

English pointers/setters hunt and hunt well. Before I got a setter, I researched other breeds. Actually, I almost got a french brittany. Had the guys number, saw the pups, cash on hand, etc. But there was nothing that I read or saw or observed that was 'better' than good english setter/pointer for upland birds.

I've never said anything bad about PLs because I never hunted with them. So, how can I have an opinion?You willnever hearanything badabout any breed from this noob.

(except those yapping-antlike-annoying dogs that I want to step on. Happy T-day!)

RE: Pointing Labs
 

To all those who are lurking on this thread..."NO"...Dave and I are not at each other's throat....I respect Dave and would look forward to any training advice he gave me......I'm glad Dave found his way to the forum, and is able to help and answer any question's . Happy Thanksgiving All... Peace.... Wayne

RE: Pointing Labs
 

Everything happens for a reason!! Love ya Brother, Thanks Jonesy

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My lab live's with his nose to the ground......Guess you have'nt been around alot of lab's..[&:]

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