looking for new upland dog
 

I am looking for suggestions for a new dog. I have a 3 year old pointing lab and a 13 year old lab. I have always had 2 dogs for hunting. My 13 year old lab wont be able to hunt to much more..arthritis in hips. I will need to start thinking about a new dog in the next 12 to 24 months. I have always had labs...although this is my first pointing lab. My little pointing lab is doing great. For my next dog I am interested in a flusher or pointer. The breed needs to be good with kids and others. Not need to be exercised every day( No breeds that are hyper please)...as thats not possible with my work schedule. Intelligent and trainable. Loyal and a good family dog that isnt a big barker..I live in city. Dog will be outside in kennel when weather permints and inside otherwise. Things like a non hair shedder would be a plus. Just want a really good hunter. I have given up duck and deer hunting all i hunt now is pheasants and quail. Please feel free to make suggestions and recommend breeders/trainers.

Also, is it any better to purchase a trained 2 to 3 yr old dog for $2000.00 to $3000.00 from a good trainer as opposed to getting a puppy and spending that much over a couple of years to have it trained. I know that my current pointing lab is 3 ...I have about $3200.00 (including the cost of the pup) into this dog now. Can a dog that is 2 to 3 years old still bond with an owner that just bought them???
thanks for any help you have to offer.

Thanks

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

I would suggest a Vizsla. They are a versatile breed. I will be getting my pup in October. My wife and I chose the Vizsla because it has a good nose and is a good family pet.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

I would suggest GSP's. Alot of folks in my bird dog club own them including me, and most of them seem to have some brains. Shedding is not to bad. This breed can be prone to Hyperactivity. And really, it will be hard to find a hunting breed that is not. Every short haired breed I have run across has been prone for hyperactivity. Weims, vizlas ect. I find that by at least giving my dog one good workout a week will usually keep her somewhat sane. She actually hunts and listens better if you take her out more often though.

If I had to do it all over again, I would by a trained dog. The time, effort and frustration isnt worht it to me anymore. I trained my pointer along with some proffesional help. Shes not really that good still. So You never really know if the pup is gonna have it or not. When you go to see the already trained dog work, you will know if you are spending your money wisely.

As far as bonding, most people dont seem to notice any difference. Dogs are still pack animals and will bond with whatever "pack" they are with. I am currently fostering a rescue dog, and this thing after a couple days has made me its best freind.

Good luck! And have fun with it

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

No such dog exists....at least none that are worth feeding.

ALL dogs shed, some lighter than others, but the idea of a non-shedder is pure bull. I am surprised at this request though, labs tend to be bad shedders and blow out their coats.

Almost any hunting dog is going to require daily exercise. It may not come from you, if you have two dogs they may self-exercise, but if you think you can just leave a dog in the kennel and then pull him out now and then, you will havemost likely have a barker, a chewer, and a digger.

Vizslas have HUGE energy requirements for the most part. Some gsp's do as well, but it depends on the line.

A few dogs come to mind, but they are rare. A Bracco Italaino perhaps a Spinone will fit your needs, even a griffon. However, be aware that these dogs are not going to rip up a pasture to find and point birds. They are more plodders. For flushers, you might look to a Clumber Spaniel aka the "old man's dog" cause it does not move too fast either.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

For upland hunting, you will generally want a dog that's able to run. Whether its aflusher or pointer type, any kind of running dog will require daily exercise or they will develop bad habits as AlaskaMagnum said.

Another thing to consider, if you want to encourage your young dog to point then I definitely would not go with a flushing breed unless you have the patience to teach the dog to honor pointbut then you defeat the purpose ofgetting a flusher.If you do get a flusher,the dog will flush birds that the pointer is pointing. Soon, your pointer will want to get the bird first and start flushing it himself. That is the problem I'm having to deal with a young setter pup. First encounter with birds and I brought a flusher along. I have to now break her of pouncing. But she's young and will be fine.

I would like to stress the need for exercise. I have hunted over dogs that did not get daily exercise. I have yet to see one dog able to run more than half a day if even that. I run my pup aleast one hour a day. At only six months, last Monday, she ran for five hours, Weds - six hours. And she's still wants to run. You definitely can tell who exercise their dogs as by noon, only a few of us were still hunting.

My suggestion would be to get another pointing lab since you already know the breed or spend the time you do have to reinforce the training of your current dog and forego getting another.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

All of these are excellent suggestions and would agree with them all. Most of us look for dogs with lineage that has high prey drive which equates to "hyperactivity". I'm patial to the Lab and the Brittany, but that is just my opinion. Be very careful with breeding of Labs and research the lineage carefully. Griffons and Chessies are another option.

Around here I have heard of a few people who have been buying crossbreads and having good success. The most popular are the Labradoodle (Labrador Retriever and Standard Poodle) and the Retrieverdoodle (Golden Retriever and Standard Poodle). The crossbreeding with the standard poodle helps tremendously with the shedding. I've also heard that the intelligence of the poodle improves the trainability of the dog. Some may frown on this crossbreeding, but for some I believe it is a valid alternative. There are obvious down sides as well. The prey drive isn't as sharp and the nose looses some of its intensity.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

most of my friends just use my dogs so they dont have to do all the work we trade off i have english setters they pay i bring the dogs or we trade like ill use one fellas treestand and he gets to shoot over my dogs

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Obviously, I run GSP's. The non-shedding issue...(and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong), but the flushers that I know of are typically long haired = shedding and the GSP's and other upland shorthaired dogs..well they shed as well. You're fighting a losing battle with that request. As far as a family pet, labs are good, GSP's are good, I'm sure a springer spaniel is good, etc. It mostly comes down to how much you associate your new pet to the family and other dogs which will bring the "lover" out in the dog. As far as hyperactivity goes, any true upland will always want to get out and run. Take for example, the GSP in my avatar. He used to love to run and be trained and while in the house liked to get into trouble and never sit still and always running around in our yard (when we lived in town). The other GSP I have is basically a lap dog and would love to sit on the couch all day long but he still loves to get out and run 1-2 times a day...probably more since we've moved to the country. Bottom line is, an upland dog NEEDS to be run on a daily basis, not only b/c they want to but also to keep them conditioned....that is, if you want a hard charger that won't walk behind you 20 minutes into a hunt. Hopefully this helps a bit and doesn't sound too harsh. PM me if you have more questions!!

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Many breeds will work. I run two GSPs and I love them in the open country of MT and ND. I've got kids and they're great. THE BIGGEST THING that you need to consider is breeding, breeding, breeding...what mommie and daddy dog are is probably what pup will inherit. Spend your TIME looking at lots of different dogs and don't be impulsive!

Good luck!

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

If someone knows that I am wrong correct me. I thought the German Wirehaired Pointer and Pudlepointers have a coat that doesn't shed. I know there are non-hunting breeds that don't shed....the Pudle was already brought up....which for anyone that may not know the Pudle was developed as a hunting dog. I know Yorkshireterriers *spelling and some other toy breeds don't shed....I am pretty sure none of these would be a suitable choice!!! LOL Where is Versidog? He could tell us if DD's shed.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Yes both DD's and PP's shed. It is nothing compared to a lab or a setter but they do shed.

Huntermag

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

I can say with complete confidence that GSPs and DDs shed. The GSP's hairs are very small like little splinters, the DD's are longer and more noticible. Neither of them shed like a lab though. In fact, I think labs are probably the worst shedding dogs among the hunting breeds. All that hair to keep them warm comes with a price.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

I hunt with German Shorthairs, love them. I hunt in an area with a lot of briars and such, no problems with keeping stuff out of their coats. Pretty easy to train, but once you get them outside, it's hard to get them back into the house. My buddy needs to take them for daily walks to burn off their energy, but they are only 4 and 3 (basically big puppies). Good luck with whatever you get.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Your options are unlimited, I professionally train bird dogs and retrievers, as gun dogs and some compitition, You need tofigure out what you feel will best suit you. If your hunting timber, I feel for an average hunter a closer working dog is more enjoyable. Reason is if dog attemps to stretch out little bit and gets outta site, you don't have to panic. Whether dog is broke or not, respect to you, and the game is manditory. So you've got brittanies, vizsla, german shorthairs.. If you are gonna be running more open woods or fields, your pointers and setters are better. Now don't get me wrong some of the breedsI mentioned before can get out and strole pretty good also. The biggest thing is what you enjoy, everyone has there own opinion, the dog and you need to have your bond, if your not happy with the choice, that bond can end up being null and void!! Understand, puppies are enjoyable, and you can start alot by yourself, a broke dog is also very nice what I feel about buying a dog is at puppy stage you guys seem to be alot tighter, the trust is more comfortable. You can take the dog somewheer when he's ready and have him trained to be steady. The bond is still there. The biggest thing that I can say with dogs is "patience" keep everything black and white, to yourself and your dog, because you both are learning. Jonesy

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Jonesy

I got a question. Actually, alot of questions about birddogs. I have a 6.5 month old Llewellin setter. Is it too early to train her with a remote collar? On leash she does well off leash is another story. There are situations where when she gets loose she runs into traffic as I live in an urban area. It's critical that she listens.

Also, how do I teach her to circle the bird on command to stop it from running? I know you're suppose to flush it from the sides but I also would like it to stop running.

There are some good trainers here but you are the first professional trainer I've seen here.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

One thing that always should be in your mind is everyday is a training day, Dogs are creature of habit, so repitition is a virtue. Now what I mean by this is that every day you try teach something, wether it goin to bathroom outside, load and unload from dog box, yard work, bird exposure, anything. 6.5 mo, is fine, watch what how with the collar.
[hr]
I would start with is just some ground basics, now when I start a new dog I do alot with a pinch collar, but if you don't have I can help you work through, what I start teaching is to stop and stand, so 8 -10ft. check cord, and collar on neck, but not turned on unless dog used to wearing. The collar is a dangerous tool, I have worked a lot dogs through collar problems, timing is everything. Take the dog and tug on its neck, not a jerk just a tug " its cue " that I need to stop and stand. When it stops, just satnd, DONT' SAY ANYTHING!! Give the dog couple seconds, tap on the side to release. As this goes on you'll see dog reponding to the tug, and the tap. Now if dog is used to collar, you can also nick at light setting at the same time with the tug. The collar is goin to overlay the tug, before you know it you'll nick with collar and dog will stop and stand!! When I teach all this I will do 2 or 3 stop and stands, and a couple "here's" then put up, you can let run or something later in the day. With the here's take and let the dog be out front on the cc and tell it here, if it comes in great if not take and roll the check cord, when the wave gets to dogs neck repeat here. soon as it comes in hands on the dog, pet down the side or something. You want the dog to accept here as a good thing, so many people use here only when the dog is getting put up, it start assuming its done for the day and the here command turns into a bad thing in the dogs mine, then later dad, don't here ya. Understand?? "Patience" is gonna be your keyword for the day!!;)You might not see it all right off the bat but you'll see within a week of training. Bird work most dogs learn that on there own. Lot of bird exposure. What are you hunting, wild or pen raised? What the stop and stand will end up doin is overlaying into your bird work, before you know it dog will be steady to wing, and or shot. Yeah!! Jonesy

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

What if you really don't want to have to run your dog with a collar? Using your tactic, how are you eventually going to get your dog to stop without a collar on?

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

If you properly collar condition your dog, there should be no difference if the collar is on or off. If your dog obeys when the collar is on, but not when it is off, he is colar wise, and you hosed the training.

That being said, I would not let the pup off check cord unless it was in a place where traffic was not a problem. Call the pup into you every now and then, give them a treat, then send them on their way.

Biggest mistake people make is only calling the dog in to leash them up. Think from the dog's point of view, why come in when he knows the fun is going to end and he is going to get leashed up. Dogs are not all that complicated, but you have to look at stuff from their perspective.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Exactly, so if you start out with the collar on and dog has no idea whats is being asked, you are making an uneccesary correction, what I am doing is getting him started on what and why, I have to assume the owner doesn't know whats goin on to the full extent. So I will help him, and try and ex. so the owner understands. The collar will be major tool, along with check cord, but, think if the dog has no idea what and why, you start creating problems. Dog training needs to stay blk/wht, for the handler and dog!! It is just like teaching retrievers to sit, the bird dog stops, and stands. Your final project is starting to complete. As far as treat goes, when the dog comes in to the here command it will be facing forward, You can give tug on the neck, dog will stop and stand, stroke him down the center of its back tap on side and send on. Thats the treat, your hands on the dog, big thing is to watch the dog, make sure it doesn't get to jacked up cause then the wiggles start. I would just stroke and tap get it on, the dogs focus will stay on whats being asked. Now when your workout is done then you can have play time, the dog will learn the difference.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Ya know I reread your last paragraph, and agree 100%, if you reread what I told thats the same thought. The dogs are easy to train, owners are what is complicated. Just like what I have found to well for me, from the dogs perspective right now the tug, means to stop and stand, the collar will overlay in week or so, then it will mean the same thing. And i don't know if you personally have done anything with setters, but you expecially need to take time on them, alot of them do not matureas fast as other breeds, and it seems to take longer to fix a setter, they don'tseem to be as forgiving. Jonesy

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

I mostly mess with the german versatiles and retrievers.

Sounds like you a proponent of the Bill West method????

It is a good method. I am going to be sending a pup to Maurice this winter.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

I spend 10 - 30 minutes a day training my setter or until she gets it right. I often call her during playing times as sometimes she'll exploring out of sight. So, no I don't think that's a problem. Perhaps it's not breaking the time up into less time spent more sessions?

As to my method, here is what I do. I heel her for about 20-30 feet then woah her with the whistle. Then walk back, forwards, around her to make sure she stays put. Then I call her to me using the whistle. I heel her and repeat the process. We usually do this several times until we reach the car after play. Should I use the collar (lowest stimulation level) when I call her to me? How often should I use the collar? Everytime initially?

I will try breaking up the training session into multiple short ones. Before she begins playing, during playtime, and after playtime. I will see how it goes.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Maurice is who taught me, hands on i lived with Maurice for about 6mo.in Piedmont sc, I will be goin to Maurices in approx a week or so to pick up 2 bitches to send to a client of mine next to portland, oregon. Are you Maurices yahoo group also?? All I am trying to do is help the guy get started, you have to assume who ever you talk to is an am. If not when, something goes wrong, because he or she did not do it right or done it to fast, who's gonna be the bad guy?? Yes, he could send the dog to me, or Muarice,andwe will have it standing in 5 min. I don't think thats what the guy is after. So yes, we can cut some corners, but for some one who's experience is slim, or sounds to be slim, why put the cart before the horse so fast. I will cover my butt, and go on.I xplained where, and how to start his pup. The other member isn't even sure what kinda dog he wants?? All you guys said is this breed is great , and I like this breed, so as a guessing game you guys are all dog trainers, why don't you give things to help the guy out?? Jonesy

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Jonsey,

No, I am not a member of Maurice's yahoo group, I have just followed him for years on uplandbirddog.com and trained a GSP according to the west method six years ago (man does time fly). I would be interested in joining the group, and maybe even contacting you, as communication wtih Maurice is limited to email. Could you PM me the information?


As for the rest, I think you misread my post. I directed my post to underdog who claims that if you traina dog with an e-collar, you can never trust them without one.

I am no pro, but have managed to tinker with about ten dogs over the last five or so years. I managed to put a SH on a retriever and got a few passes with a GSP at SH, but never finished his title.

I plan on testing my new pup with the VDD.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Here's another e-mail address, [email protected] we can also talk, i'll give you whatever info you need. Cool?? I've delt with Maurice for whew, 10-15 years. Seemsour timejust keeps getting better and better. We've been through lot together. My self as an honest hand with a dog, either or any breed of sport dog, I myself with this style of socialization to client or personal dog have not had a problem with or without collar. I feel its all in the work that you've done with the dog. I've helped alot of horseback trialers get thier dogs on the right track, Idone lots of gun dogs, I had a gentlemans chessie, 2yr old bitch, nothing done to her, just hunted, Ihad her for 3 mo. 5 test 5 passes. And she had an awful collar problem, it was at their house with electric yard fence, fried her twice bad, owners finally got it shut off!! So you could nick below one, she'd ball up. It was bad, but she had a head of sense, and me and her worked through all of it, just limited collar. OBED., line steady, ff, whistles, remote sits.I am not much on that breed but if I had chance for pup out of her, i'd snatch it up!! Where you from?? I'm in Kentucky?? I'm sure you'll agree throwing in here command during session is a big plus. Just like a dog that retrieves, everyone is so excited about it they want to get the bird from the dog, instead of allowing the carry. Before you know it dog does not want to come in cause dad always takes it, and the came of keep away starts, I don't understand sometimes. Force fetching is not an exciting part of dog training, I'll do it but so many times if owners would have thought for a second problem would not be there. I don't know I just try and keep all the people happy.:DI just enjoy the dogs, exspecially the pups!! Later Jonesy

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

Jonesy

Please don't get me wrong. I appreciate your advice. I just wanted to let you know that my pup is already somewhat steady on woah, heel, come. I just wanted to know how to incorporate it inher/my trainning. I haven't used a collar at all excepting a bark collar at low levels. Never did even with my other dog. I don't own a remote collar system.

The reason why I'm asking is because I live in a busy urban area. It is essential that she listens immediately or get hit by a car as she will run in the road into traffic.

Thank you for advice on the trainning before playtime as I incorporated that. The other question is when/if I do get a collar, how often do I 'zap' her? Everytime?

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

This is how I teach it, when you have taught the command and the dog understands the command, what I do is command,see if dog responds, no response, or just farting around, command-nick low setting-command. always repeat your command after nick it puts it together indogs mind. I thinkin your case with the city, I would do it with check cord also to start out. Don't use long cord 10 ft. max. You figure out how you want to have dog come to ya,most of the dogs I've done have been done with name-here. Put your cord in right hand, remoteinleft, when I teach here I use a stronger tug, so now it will be command-tugnick-command. Pet on it send on, walk around for little bit, repeat. You'll see after 7-10 times dog will start coming in with no tug, and posibly no collar, it is learning that nothing happens if I do this. And there will be times of "screw you" So collars on, repeat command-nick-command. So you gave dog chance, it thought it was ahead of you, you made the correction. I have put collar on early in the morn. worked dog in afetrnoon, turned it while I was petting it, dog didnot relize it was there. Excellent correction made. You got to give dog time to learn!! Patience is a virtue. If you don't have a collar there is place called collar clinic, its about the cheapest to get collar, or have one worked on. What they do is use the old casings of the transmitter, and reciever, shell out put in all new guts. Excellent price. My self if its that busy where your at, I would be careful about the area ans not let her off the cord, she'll use the bathroom. Use the shorter cord that way if she's running circles you can feed rope around you not get tied up!!:D Jonesy

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

I have a GSP and also a English Setter and they both work very well for me on pheasants and grouse.

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

I've got a buddy in route as we speak to south dakota, taking some pointers and retrievers. I have a buddy thats got some brit and vizslas pupson the ground but to young. Then my buddy thats in route will have some retrievers coming out around xmas. I know lot of people with dogs for sale. It is what the people want or are looking for. I have alot of friends all over that are into dogs. I have a lady thats a good hand in mott North Dakota, not for sure whats for sale, but she's a good hand at breaking. Jonesy

RE: looking for new upland dog
 

100% brittany i have one and had it trained by a brit breeder 3mth the dog holds wing & shot honors other dogs point and is great with kids its a smaller dog tha a lab and is a little hyper but gentel with kids and easy to train the gsp are good to but harder to train at least i was told that by 4 different pro dog trainers the reason they got so popular was the akc pushed them for a couple of years well do your research and try looking in a upland bird book they will give you some info

Good luck