BOBCATT

OK folks!
Here's some information you MAY wish to give consideration to, as it represents a significant alternative to LARGE sums of money and various levels of personal frustration I read in most of these forum posts dealing with limited (3) forms of bullets available for the .172 & 17HMR's.

[blockquote]NOTE: What is presented here, IS NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT, NOR ENDORSEMENT, it does however represent a REAL ALTERNATIVE to store bought ammunition and which can and will save you, literally, thousands of dollars, through building your own CUSTOM BULLETS and doing your own reloading. I've included the URL and I promise you one thing from this, which is:

Knowledge is costly;
[ol][*]It's costly to obtain (books, experience, CD's, DVD's, VHS Video tapes, School course works, apprentiship training, etc.)[*]It's costly NOT to learn because you remain captive to all other sources which are vested with the knowledgebase you do not have... (Store bought ammunition in this instance, Federal regulations which restrict and limit your access to purchasing or other ownership BATF, etc.)[/ol]Therefore, I present you with an alternative thought process, which will allow you to custom build almost any type of bullet design you can mentally invent and in some instances, simply copy that which currently exists and to which modifications of personal choice may be applied or adapted.

[/blockquote]Some years back, I purchased used, several sets of "SWAGING" bullet dies and ever since that time in 1998, I've not once, had to purchase a single round of ammunition from any retailer.
It wasn't that I was cheap, simply that the type and forms of shooting I do, is costly, and usually, I use up a moderate sum of ammunition 1-200 rounds per session.
Using a center-fire Remington model seven (.17REM) (which is a necked down .223 case) this gets expensive rather fast.

The next difficulty is with the availability or choice of bullet used in store bought rounds, normaly FMJ's or JHP's.
I prefer, a bullet, between 18 and 28gm, with a PolyTip (round balls of most any form of plastic or similar materials), HotFire-Phosphorous base insert (makes following the trail of the bullet to target really neat and illuminating), Rebated-Boat-tail, with a core of (Lead, Copper, Brass, Steel, Nickle, etc.) and to top all this off, in some instances, a small fluid filling of "Mercury, Water, Hydro-carbon fluid such as Oil, Grease, or some other NON-COMPRESSABLE LIQUID".

Take all of the previously stated information and you then SWAGE (high pressure compression) the elements into one single specialty or highly custom, bullet of your own creation. Instead of paying $0.25 per bullet at Horn...., my cost is nothing more than my time, equipment, and various component parts, so a cost of maybe, $0.05 cents, and that's pushing it!
Here I will stop and the following is a basic quotation from Mr. Corbin's website. I sincerely hope this information will empower at least some of you with a learning process, and knowledge base concept, you may not have thought about previous to reading this posting.
Here's wishing you a higher level of personal freedom than you may have had yesterday!
---Bob Catt - Tucson, AZ (17-May-2007)---

REFERENCE WEBSITE: http://www.corbins.com/starting.htm

Sub-caliber bullets are those smaller than the standard .224 diameter, which includes these standard Corbin sizes: [ul][*].204 (5mm or 20 caliber)[*].172 (17 caliber)[*].145 (14 caliber)[*].123 (12 caliber) [/ul] The main difference between sub-calibers and larger calibers is the jacket. Corbin has .172 jackets available, but typically jackets for sub-calibers are drawn from .224 jackets, and trimmed to desired length using a jacket trim die.

Lead wire is available down to .172 caliber size, which is .125 diameter to fit the .17 jacket. For .14 and .12 caliber, you will need a LED-2-S lead wire extruder to make .100 and .090 lead wire. While sub-cals can be formed from annealed copper wire, the lower BC of such projectiles tends to make them inferior to drawn jacketed bullets filled with lead.

To make .145 caliber bullets, one could use .030 copper strip and the Corbin JMK-1-S jacket making kit, or simply draw down a .172 or a .224 jacket. The .123 caliber bullet would be another draw for the .145 caliber jacket.
Long heavy .172 caliber bullet jackets can be made from either .224 or 6mm jackets (using two draws).
The most typical ogive shape for sub-cal bullets is 6-S, but experimental .172's have been made with 10-S ogives.

The first step in swaging any bullet is adjusting the weight of the core. The core can be lead, or some other material. It can also be the entire bullet (for lead bullets), or just the filling for the jacket (which is the cup or shell around the core). This is an optional but highly recommended first step. You can skip it and make sure your cut or cast cores are as accurate in weight as possible by careful preparation. In that case you do not need the core swage (CSW) die.

The bullet can be made in one step if it has no jacket, and can have a shoulder between the shank and nose. It can be made in two steps, in a core swage and a core seat die, if it has a jacket that does not go past the shoulder. If it has a flat, cup, dish, or hollow base, it can be made in three dies, without a shoulder, with or without a jacket. The jacket can be put in backward to make a full metal jacket, or the lead core can be shorter than the jacket for an open tip. Rebated boattail bases and lead tips are created with other steps. No more than five basic operations are required for swaging any of the bullet styles.

Each step is a single stroke of the press. Each stroke takes from 2 to 5 seconds, depending on the press and the particular operation. Simple lead bullets can be made at 10-12 per minute, jacketed semi-wadcutters at 5-6 per minute, full jackets, soft or hollow point flat bases at 3-4 per minute, and rebated boattail open tips at 2-3 per minute.

The important thing to keep in mind about swaging is that the process works by putting very high pressure on the filling or core, which compresses in length and expands in diameter, pushing the jacket (if used) into exact conformity with the inside of the die. The component you are swaging expands in diameter. When you release the pressure to eject the bullet, the materials shrink back very slightly to release from the die. The jacket stretches, and every void within the sealed die is filled with material. Whatever pressure is applied to the core, or base of the bullet, is also applied to every other part.
============end===========

Lot's more follows at http://www.corbins.com/starting.htm
and here the fun just begins.

--ALL THE VERY BEST TO EACH OF YOU--

Howler

So once a guy purchases all the equipment needed to mold his/her own bullets, how many rounds would he/she need to shoot before"seeing" the savings?
Or is this kind of like reloading in general, you "think"you'll save money by reloading, but since you end up shooting more and shooting more often, reloading actually costs you more![8D]

BOBCATT

Hi Howler:
Ouch, a life member, must be nice!
And your graphic, supurbly done

Well, let's see here, just how best to answer the question...
All this kind of depends upon just how much one wishes to spend and possibly upon if the purchase is a one off, or one where maybe over time you may be adding one or more sets to expand the pleasures.
Another way of stating this, would be, if all you are interested in is the .172 cal then possibly the following may be sufficient:
Firstly, it's much easier to simply cut and past the information from the corbin website page of http://www.corbins.com/starting.htm which will give the basics.
Secondly the basic set up is:
1) A press
2) Die Set
3) Car tire lead weights, or at least some source for the lead you are going to need. Which also can be purchased from of course whom else but Corbin.
4) Jackets will also need to be purchased and those too can be purchsed from Corbin. In my case, because I do a great deal of practice with .22 cal, I simply use the brass .22 cal spent cases and they work great when pressed or put through resizing dies and come out as .172 jackets. Rather neat having "r" or "S" or "cci" and others pressed right into the middle of the base of each jacket (bullet).
--- So now you have a jacket, into which lead is placed, this assembly gets placed into a die and now using a point forming die, you "SWAGE" all the parts together and the result is the neatest little bullet you've ever seen, and YOU MADE IT YOURSELF.
BTW, you could have shortened the amount of lead, and placed a tiny poly-ball into the front end of the jacket, so the final formed bullet has a poly-tip on it which most of my bullets have.
Anyway, that's pretty much it.
Whith the investments made into several die sets, from .10 to .480 ou would be amazed at the diversification of bullets you can custom make and for which you can easily charge custom prices. Kind of depends upon your nich market place. Some of the ones I've made sell for approx $22.00 for each bullet with a min quantity of 50 units each.($1100.00) and all this grew out of one single set of dies, then more were added (used) into which a small business happened.
[hr]Copyright 2007 Corbin - http://www.corbins.com/starting.htm
[hr]
Dies are classified by the kind of press they fit, and the kind of operation they perform.

[ul][*] Type -R Dies
Dies whose catalog number ends with -R fit a standard 7/8-14 thread reloading press with slotted ram, similar to the RCBS Rockchucker. The die goes into the press head, like a reloading press die. The external punch fits into the press ram, like a shell holder. Ejection is by means of a plunger or knock-out rod in the top of the die.[*] Type -S Dies
Dies whose catalog number ends with -S fit the Corbin S-Press and the Corbin Hydro-Mite bench model hydraulic press. The dies have 5/8-24 threads and fit into the press ram, so you can drop parts into the die mouth. The press head is 7/8-14 threaded. The press comes with a floating punch holder, which is used to hold and adjust the position of the external punch. This punch pushes components into the die and applies pressure to them. Ejection is automatic on the down stroke.[*] Type -H Dies
Dies whose catalog number ends with -H fit the Corbin Hydro-Press, Mega-Mite Press, and Hydro Junior. These dies have 1-inch x 12 threads and a 1.5-inch main body. The dies fit the press ram. The external punch fits a floating punch holder (which comes with each press). The punch holder goes in the top or head of the press, and adjusts the position of the punch. Ejection is automatic on the down stroke.[*]Type -M Dies
Early Corbin dies for the discontinued Mity Mite and Silver Press used a 3/4-inch diameter body with 5/8-24 threaded shank. These dies are made today on special order to fit the early model presses. They have been replaced by the type -S dies. [/ul]

[ol][*]A jacketed bullet with a step or shoulder between nose and shank can be made with two dies, called the core swage (CSW-1) and the core seater (CS-1). This combination is called the "JSWC-2-S" or "JSWC-2-H". You can order the two individual dies, or the single catalog number for them both.

[ul][*]Calibers from .10 to .458 inch can use type-S dies and the CSP-1 S-Press.[*]Calibers from .459 to 1.00 inch can use type-H dies and either the CSP-2 Mega Mite, the CSP-2H Hydro Junior, or the CHP-1 Hydro Press.[*]A reloading press can also be used with a custom CSW-1-R and custom CS-1-R die. Except in .224, .243, and certain pistol calibers (.32 to .38), the -R dies are only available on custom order. [/ul]

[/ol]
[hr]If on the other hand you want a bit more capability, then you will want the three die set up.

A jacketed bullet without a step or shoulder between nose and shank, and a flat or cupped base can be made with three dies:
[ol][ol][*]the core swage (CSW-1),[*]the core seater (CS-1), and,[*]the point former (PF-1).
This combination is called the "FJFB-3-S" or "FJFB-3-H".

You can order the three individual dies, or the single catalog number for all three in a matched set.

The core swage (CSW-1) is optional, but is usually desired as part of the set, for more accurate weight control.
[ul][*]Calibers from .10 to .458 inch can use type-S dies and the CSP-1 S-Press.[*]Calibers from .459 to 1.00 inch can use type-H dies and either the CSP-2 Mega Mite, the CSP-2H Hydro Junior, or the CHP-1 Hydro Press.[*]A reloading press can also be used for .224 or .243 bullets, with the BSD-224R or BSD-243R die sets, which have the CS-1-R and PF-1-R (the CSW-1-R can be ordered as an option).[/ul][*][align=left]
[/align]

[/ol][/ol]