You just don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that I have owned more than one rifle scope. I've owned a variety. Some at the same time, others not at the same time. I've gotten lots of experience with how a rifle scope should work and function.

Just because someone doesn't have a ton of guns like you claim you do, all topped with scopes, doesn't mean they have had experience with anything.

You know, Leupold has a warranty.....(just sayin)

What's your VX-iii mag/obj/finish? I might want it :D

Ok, so your saying you have tested and owned burris, nikon, leupold, ziess, bushnell, and a variety of the models, not just the k-mart version??? Because when your story started, it was you bought a VX-1. But now, you claim to own a 6500 tactical.

So do get to talk with these guys often where you live? I don't go, because I live in the real world. But maybe you can tell us about it. Since this is where you prefer to live.

Lol I've yet to see you state any specific facts about any kind of scope. Yet you claim know what's best. Hell, I've yet to see you post any useful information about anything.

Okie dokie. I took the time to tell you my loads and groups with a BAR. I took the time to take a picture for you. I took the time to explain in detail my experience. Your not listening. Again. People are nice enough on here to answer your newbie questions about everything. But this is what they get in return. I take time to answer PM after PM about reloading. Even go to people's house to teach them on here. Ask Mossyoak33. Or Haugenna.

Could you please show me where I said something is "best". I have more "other" scopes than leupold. So what does that say?

What kinda facts would you like to know? I will do my best to explain what I know.

You did do that with the BAR. I guess I shouldn't have said that I haven't seen you post anything useful as you did do that. However, the majority of your posts I've seen are you trashing other peoples opinions because you don't agree with them with your expertise.

That being said, with the BAR while you did try to help, and none of the stuff worked on mine, you resorted to telling me how it was due to my lack of experience. When I posted about accuracy issues, I had guy after guy after guy tell me that he was having the same problem, or had the same problem and traded the gun off. So I took your suggestions and tried them, but when they didn't work I'm not sure what you think I should have done? Like I said they aren't all inaccurate as a buddy just got one that is very accurate. However, most of the guys I know that have them claim they have the same issues I did. I've seen others claim theirs are accurate too, and even shot me how accurate they are, but the majority of the guys that I've talked to aren't telling me how accurate theirs is. When I called Browning they told me 2" groups were about as good as I should expect with a rifle like that and that it wasn't a bolt action so I shouldn't expect the same accuracy I would for a bolt action. So I find it hard to believe that the reason so many people are having this same problem, and the reason that Browning tells users 2" groups are all they should expect is because none of us have any experience with it. If you magically know some trick to get all the BAR's to shoot great, why not open up a business accurizing them? I'm sure there are tons of guys out there that would love to have you fix theirs for them since you have the "experience" to make them shoot great.

Well of course browning told you 2". One, its semiauto. About anyone knows 2MOA is about all one can expect. I get better now after tweeking OAL and powder change. You got to understand browning has no idea if you flinch, no idea on if your a machine shooter. They can't control the ammo you put thru it. Remington would tell you simular.

I can't fix a shooter overnight, nor do I have time. The reason I know this is, I have been there when I was a teenager. I bought my first rifle, and shot 5" groups. I swore I was a good rifle shooter, it couldn't be me. Called the company, complained, went back to the store I bought it, complained, there was no internet then, or I am sure I woudl have come on and complained. Finally, a compenant shooter saw me and asked if he could, shoot it, and bam, 1.5MOA. With crap coreloks. I told him, he was lucky. He let the gun cool, (I thought why did he do that). Picked it up and then a 1MOA.

I could be all wrong about you. But where there smoke, there is usually fire. And I may be reading you all wrong. But all indications say not. Your probably a great guy.

Since then I have met many a newbie that swore their gun is a MOA gun and they were top shots. I have thrown down many a 20 dollar bill, and said "show me". I have yet to loose. But I pick my battles. I don't do that with everyone. I wouldnt do that with PAwildman, or ridgerunner, or elderado or anyone I see at the range every week. Rare is the guy who is a MOA shooter consistently. But I am sure everyone here swears they are. So sure, I would say browning did tell you that. For good reason.

I'd have to say it may be the guy behind the trigger as well maybe not, but most likely is.I have personally shot other people rifles cause they claimed their customn guns weren't grouping bullets well with them. One guy claimed his barel was shot out of his 7mm Ultra Mag, cause he wasn't getting any grouping. I was shooting beside him and he gave me his gun. He Handed me the gun and I put 3 shots on 1 1/4 inches ,over 45 minutes handed it back to him and told him he probably developed a flinch or he wasn't letting the barrel cool down long enough between shots.He may or mat not of been happy with the grouping I made, but my point is I gave him a group to prove the barrel was probably not the issue.And 1 1/4 inches is bad considering I have never shot that gun before. My dad has a browning semi auto 30-06 the best groups from it are about 1 1/4.I don't know what type of groups your looking for but my Husky 30-06 does just under an inch and that's me shooting really well.It doesn't take much movement from the shooter to get bigger groups. Personally if I had a rifle that consistantly shot 1.5 inch groups from one load everytime I went out target practicing, I'd be more than happy with the hunting setup and shooting ability out to 400 yrds.

Hey guys just wanted to ask a really dumb question. I have only been hunting for a few years so I am no expert AT ALL when it comes to this sport. I just signed up for this forum yesterday and I have come across some great information. Just wondering when you guys say you own 6 or 7 of the same scope is it just to have one on every rifle you own or just because over time the scope becomes less effective? Sorry for the dumb questions and sorry for Hi jacking your thread OP. Hope you get your sitting dilemma squared away.

I put one of these on each of my bolt guns.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/burris-4...le-scopes.html

Works for me.................KISS Principle.

Same everything no matter which caliber I need that day.

My Leupold is about 25 Years Old and My Nikon 6X12X50 is about 20 years old ,never had any problems with them.

I just got to say this much about Bigcountry.
He knows how to shoot, he is very very knowledgable about guns
optics and reloading.Only a handful of members on this forum Are like this.Quite frankly if I owned a site this is the type of guy who'd I want as a paid employee.I'd want very knowledgable people that are more than willing to share secrets so that hunters and shooters get results. People may take what he has to offer as a now it all, but nothing can be further from the truth.He took his education to the next level when it comes to hunting and shooting.He is not getting paid for the stuff he posts, and I will be one of the first to say I've PM'd him about a few things and have gotten a response very quickly.He is the first to help.All he asks is follow his advice.Make an honest effort to try what he says and don't complain and interrupt, until you see the results for yourself.There is nothing wrong with calling what you see when you know advice wasn't followed or an effort wasn't put forth or you just won't believe. Bigcountry isn't stupid, and is more than willing to help those who help themselves.
Just try out what some of these guys say give it a shot.Bigcountrt and I have had our disagreements about hunting situations especially
wounding and losing animals.But hey I've never wounded one and am
not about to test it out. My time will come I'm sure, I just hope it doesn't and will continue to do my best so it won't.But But when it comes to shooting reloading and optics he is my goto guy forsure.
Keep up the good work B.C.

Thanks Jeff, not sure if I am all that. But I do love shooting and reloading. I do love a nice piece of optics. I think we have mutual respect and glad to know you on these forums. And its not because the nice words either. Take vapodog, I rarely agree with him, but respect him. Same with ridgerunner and others.

We have lost alot of good posters on here. But still have down to earth ones left. Thanks again.

When it came to issues with my BAR, I listed to what he had to say, and I took his suggestions and it only made it shoot way worse. I ended up getting it back shooting decent on my own. So this is not always the case. While he may know some stuff, he certainly doesn't know it all.

The same can be said about all of us. What is the point?

Basically, I just don't think he really knows as much as he wants people online to think. That "other guy" who probably is the same guy, but we can't be sure of that comes in here making it sound like he is a genius and can fix anything and knows what the cause of any problem would be. I was just pointing out that this isn't the case. When I've had issues he is very quick to suggest a fix. When they don't work he resorts to telling me how it's because I don't have enough experience and I don't know what I'm doing.

I can agree that trying to fix something unseen over the net is very hard. I've met a few experts online in other fields that can often do it, but it's not often. However, if something I suggest doesn't fix it, I don't start telling the other person how it either was the problem, or he is the problem and that he lacks experience because he doesn't own 150 different guns to play with.

Sorry, but I know quite a few guys that know quite a bit about guns, scopes, and anything else in the hunting world, and most of them think Big Country is full of ****.

I have an old Leupold Vari-X iic that has been on several different rifles over the years. From my understanding the new VX-1's are basically the old Vari-X ii's. Never had any problems getting this scope to work as it should. It currently rides on a newly acquired T/C Icon that took a nice Virginia 8 pointer on a recent deer hunt.

Having said that, I also use a Sightron S2 on a muzzleloader and a Zeiss Conquest on another bolt gun. I am happy with all of the scopes and they perform as advertised. I have also used Leupold VX-1's, Nikon Monarchs, Bushnell Elite 3200's and 4200's and never had problems with them either. I did have an Elite 4200 that had a defect from the factory but it was never mounted on a rifle and the retailer swapped the scope out.

I don't always agree with what BigCountry has to say but IMO he is very knowledgeable and if I'm not mistaken works in the optics industry?? When I say works in the industry I am not meaning as a salesman either. I might be confusing that with someone else....don't know for sure.

Holly ****..I guess when one or two members may think I could possibly be Big Country I will take that as a compliment.
Sorry bigcountry I know I'm not you, but thanks.
When members take a serious amount of time away from family
and there own hobbies to try and help members out it should be appreciated not condemed.If you tried and it didn't work out sorry about it. But all I suggest is hear him out. Big Country is more right than wrong.Next suggestion send your goddamn gun to someone who nows how to shoot cause I really don't think you do.

If I didn't know how to shoot I really don't think I'd be getting .5" groups consistently with my other gun, nor the .8" groups I was getting with my buddies 30-06 the day before yesterday.

This whole thread is out of control. Leupold makes great scopes, yet some guy never lets the opportunity pass to complain about them (and a few of the Rambos at snipershide agree!). Who cares?
I am sure that someone thinks "Elvis on velvet" is a better painting than van Gogh's Starry Night. Who cares?
It is just a matter of perspective. Buy whatever you want.

Coulda fooled me. Obviously you get fooled very easily.
Evidence speaks for itself. You can't shoot that gun worth a crap
instead of sucking up a lot to get advice on how to shoot it properly
your being a complete dick to somebody that only offers free time to
help out.I don't forgive or forget myself, so my offer to help you out is completely out. Can't speak for bigcountry but he maybe a type a guy who can be more forgiving than I.Put it to the test than.Maybe RR can make it work for ya. And he can post the before and after results.Let's really see how you well you really can shoot and not blame everything but yourself.

When I can't get groups any better than 1.5" or so, I call Browning and they say that you shouldn't expect anything better than 2" from these guns, then I talk to quite a few guys that own them both online and in person, and most of them are telling me that they are getting 2-3" groups with them with ammo they like. Several are saying theirs shoots 5-6" groups with ammo it doesn't like, but once you find ammo it does like it gets groups in the 2" range. Just like mine. I've talked to Big Country who claims that the most of them shoot way better than that, and I've talked to one or two other guys that are getting sub moa groups with there's. Granted theirs are the ones with the BOSS system. I talked to several guys at the local gun shops who have told me that if I'm getting 1.5" groups I'm doing great as the ones they've had haven't done anything close to that. Then the last time I was in a gunshop there was a guy in there complaining that he couldn't get his Browning to shoot worth a crap and wanted to know which ammo they recommended he try next. He was using Winchester Ballistic Silver tips. I asked him which Browning he was shooting and he told me the BAR. I explained to him what ammo shot the best for me, but that it still was 1.5"-2" groups. The shop owner said he also had one, and his shot that with the Winchester ballistic tips, but that's about as good as they get.

So when 95% of the people I've talked to, both in person that own them some have even showed them to me, and online are telling me that theirs doesn't shoot any better than 2-3" groups on average, I find it kind of hard to believe that Big Country has as many as he claims to have that shoot sub moa. The evidence from my research just doesn't show them to be as accurate as he claims they are. So I find it hard to believe it's that I can't shoot, when I'm getting just as good of groups as most of the guys that own them that I've talked to are. Like I said I've had 2-3 others tell me theirs shot well too, but they had the newer ones with the BOSS.

I've also had several friends shoot this gun only to have the same experience I have. One of them is a lot better shot than me. I've seen him shoot 2" groups at 100 yards free handed, and off of a rest, he is a very good shot too. He shot this thing with the exact same results. Another friend who is also probably a slightly better shot than me also tried to shoot it before I found ammo that it seems to like, and he got 5-6" groups just like I was getting. So since no one seems to be able to shoot it any better than I can, since 95% of the people I've talked to say 1.5-2" groups are great for a BAR, and since I've tried everything Big Country has suggested with no change in results, I tend to think he is full of ****, but he loves to tell everyone how much he knows and how much experience he has. If he really had that much experience his opinions on products would be a lot different I suspect.

Is that really a large enough sample size to make a judgement like that?

No, its not.

What HTM, is forgetting, is that the Browning BAR, is far more accurate than he is capable of shooting it. I have found that this is the case with just about every rifle made.

Some have a defect, that others don't.

Another thing that he has forgotten, is that when there are hundreds of thousands of one particular model on the market (spanning decades of production). There are statistically going to be poorer shooting weapons to be found.

Also, unless he's trying to shoot for competition, hes asking too much of his own abilities to get sub MOA groups consistently.

I'm not sure that all of the guys on the net can shoot better than 2". None of them may be able to. However, in person, I can consistantly shoot better than 1.5" moa with several other rifles. Not one other rifle, but several, and consistantly. I've got two friends that can shoot sub moa groups consistantly one with a Savage 110, and one with their Remington 700. They have both shot my Browning, and neither could get any better results than I was getting. Is it all of us? Maybe, but I highly doubt it when none of us have an issue with others shooting this poorly.

As for the scopes, I agree 100% the VX-I was brought out to compete with lower priced stuff from other manufacturers, and that's exactly the point I've been making. They are comparable to the Barska's, Tasco's, Simmons, etc. The only problem is those all cost $30-60 and the Leupold costs $230. That's my whole point. When compared to other scopes in the $150-200 price range, the Leupold falls short. Now is the VX-III the in the same class? Hell no. Is it a decent scope? Yes it is. However, it's the same way. It's comparable with scopes that a fair bit cheaper. Even in the VX-III line you can get a lot more glass for your money. In the Mark 4 line, maybe you can't get a lot more for your money, but you could upgrade to a Nightforce for not much more and get a ton better scope. So while the Leupold VX-II's and better are decent scopes, you can still in most cases get a lot more glass for the money with other brands.

As for the $30 Tasco, It's not the greatest scope in the world. Instead, I use it as a comparison to demonstrate what the VX-I is on par with. It's similar in the daytime to the Tasco, and worse in low light. Not to mention the Tasco I've used worked perfectly, while the Leupold didn't track right, didn't hold zero after a few months, and just flat out didn't last. Is that saying that none of them work? No, just that the 2 I've had didn't. I'm sure not all of the Tasco's work great either, but glass wise they are very comparable. Other scopes in that price range like the Burris FFII, Vortex Diamondback, etc, have much better glass than both the Leupold and Tasco, and are much better scopes.

That being said, I've also owned a Vari-X IIc and while it worked fine, the glass still was pretty crappy for the price of it. Supposedly the same glass as a VX-I, and it looked very similar. Once again it's on par with my $30 Tasco glass wise, while the $150 Nikon Prostaff blew it out of the water, as well as the Burris FFII that was $200 with a Garmin GPS that blew both the Prostaff and the Leupold out of the water when it comes to clarity.

Seems like everyone here things I've used nothing but a VX-I and a $30 Tasco and that's not the case. I'm not going to tell you the $30 Tasco is the best scope in the world, because it's not, and you can get a lot better scope in the $150-200 price range, but not from Leupold.

20 years ago Leupold might have had great scopes and the best you could get in their price range, but scopes have come along way and there are several other companies with just as good of customer service, better products, and lower prices nowadays than Leupold who seems to sell scopes based on the name on it not the performance.

So you read, right?

Oh my goodness, this is getting better by the min. Now you have owned a Vari-X IIc. Don't forget your imaginary 6500.:lolabove:

Uh oh, somebody has got thier feelings hurt. Dry them eyes, it will be ok. :biggrin:

All these long posts with edits, just for little old me.

Problems with the Leupolds? Many years with the same VX 3 scopes on the same guns (.300 Win Mag, 45-70 Browning and .308) I have never had a problem. My guess is any scope you put on you will have problems with. Are your scopes and mounts professionally mounted? (yes or no, no "ive been doing this for years").
Are you shooting quality ammo, staying with the same brand, Wt. and bulllet? Are you shooting from a proper rest? Are you treating your scopes like a precision piece of optics? Are you carrying your gun in a quality hard gun case? If the answer is yes to all of the above, you are bragging about your current scopes, not cursing them. But you will be cursing the next scopes also if you arent paying attention to the other details first.

The VX-3 is a lot different scope than the VX-I.
That being said,
The first time I had the VX-I it was professionally mounted. It lasted about 6-7 months, but during most of that time it was sitting not being used. When I went to use it is when it went bad. When I got it back from Leupold, I did mount it myself, but it's honestly not that hard to mount a scope. This time it lasted about 9 months or so most of the which it was sitting. Then it quit holding zero.

The other one also was professionally mounted and was on a muzzle loader when it quit holding zero. It was my buddy's. I bought it from him and got it fixed, but never mounted it on anything.

I'm shooting the same brand of ammo, same lot number, and it's always been quality ammo. The ammo is usually either Federal Fusions or Winchester Power Points or Ballistic Silvertips. I'm shooting off of sandbags, but have also shot it several times out of a vise with very similar results. I don't carry it in a hard case everywhere I go, but honestly, I'm not going to, but I do carry it in a hard case most of the time in a vehicle. When I'm in the woods it gets treated like a hunting rifle I don't walk around with it in a case. My buddy didn't use a case when carrying it in his vehicle, but he doesn't for his other guns either and he doesn't have any issues. The rest of the scopes I've had get treated the same, and some of them get treated worse and don't have any issues holding zero.

The rest of the scopes I've had have given me 0 issues and I've mounted them all myself. Well, one was "professionally" mounted, but they didn't level the reticle so I re did it myself and it works great. As long as you properly torque the mounts, and get the reticle level it's not that much to mounting a scope.