Went to the range yesterday with Bigcountry and had something interesting happen that hasnt happened before. I loaded up some new loads, Nosler 115 BT with 4350 and Win lrg rifle primers. I took all 5 recommended charges that the Nosler book recommends for 115 which was 45,46,47,48 and 49 gr. AND I took one load of 52 gr of 4831. This entire batch of ammo was to test a new seating depth. Well after I shot every group, heres the weird part......I had no bad groups, I mean some were .4 and some were .75 and some were 1". But usually when I test 6 different loads in one day I can narrow something down, but now I guess Im looking for some opinions.....Should I pick the overall tightest group period and load it some more, take the top 3 and load some more, or just say the hell with it and load the tightest group of the day that will give me the best velocity?

Never judge a load based on one group.I would take the two or three loads that provided the best velocity and fire at least two more groups of each before making a decision.

You didn't use the Audette method but now is a good time to use part of it. Take the 3 tightest groups that are in order. Reload those and see what happens. Also compare impact area. IE 46,47,48 hopefully all the impacts will be the same. Then if thats the case I'd take the middle charge as you have the most leeway in powder charge area which means you are in a sweet spot in the harmonics of the barrel. Which also tends to give leeway in temp and other variations.

The absolute WORST thing you can do is shoot 46,47,48 and pick 47 because its a 0.2 inch group while 46 and 48 are 1.0 inch or worse groups. That means that you are in a fluke spot. Even if you can repeat the accuracy of 47 a few times, what happens when the variables of powder charge and ambient conditions change? You will be changing your MV which will in turn mess with the accuracy part of it.

Finally speed is by far the last thing to worry about. 100 fps more or less will make way less impact on the end results than will be by going with the most accurate group.

Take this for what its worth to you. What its meant to me is that it is the best system to work with and that comes from running almost 8K rounds a year since 1990 and reloading for a few other shooters meaning I've been doing the same method and loading for up to 15K rounds a year on average until just last year.

Best, Jeff

Yea, he made me look bad. Mossy, I was compaining about my 7mmSTW groups, but after going home and measuring all groups center hole to center hole, besides one 78gr H1000 group was below 1MOA. I guess looking at your dime sized groups, made me feel bad.

I would load up 9 rounds of each of your tightest. Remember yesterday was balls cold, so performance may change a tad with 70 degree weather.

That way, you can evaluate 3 3shot groups to help you better form an opinion. Another thing I would do is move out to 300 yards. Sometimes this tells the tale. Wish we got the chrono cranking yesterday, another data point for ya. The audette method the other poster was referring too really only works great with no wind conditions (unlike we had yesterday) and at further distances. 300 yards would be perfect. Remember, he uses a entirely different class of rounds like 223, etc. so sometimes its easier for him to use the audette method.

I hate to say this, but sometimes I make my decision on which one I can get powder for easiest. But both loads are equally able to get powder for all over. Thats teh reason I use H1000 for everything. I got 8lb of it. When we doing it again?

rost, you ought to add that 15K round thing to your signature, so you don't have to keep writing your shooting resume every post.

ok, help me out on this one. First off anyone care to BRIEFLY explain what the Audette thing is? Secondly rost495 can you tell me again because Im not clear why the worst thing I could do is pick the one that gave me the best groups if its bookended by two 1" groups?

oh and forgot to mention one other thing. All of this testing was done on a completely fouled barrel, from hunting season. I used benchrest to clear all fouling, in Oct. have probably fired 20+ rounds through before yesterday, with just boresnaking inbetween. Should I go ahead and scrub the bore and start over fresh now or just clean the powder res out?

Whenever faced with this quandary, (which isn't often!), I take a good look at extreme spread. Any one-time small group may look great that day, but not every day (especially if you shot these loads in brutally cold weather). If you have one or two loads with an extreme spread of 7-14 fps, and another with a E.S. of 65-75 fps, I'd concentrate on the first two. They show a higher potential for an accurate load day in and day out.

Brian

I agree.

Try your loads again under different weather conditions. Pick the one that is the most consistant. It may not produce the best group at +5deg, it my not produce the best group at 95deg... but it will be in the smaller end of your average group size..

It took me nearly three months to develop a load for one rifle I have, and it shoots the best at +55 deg F out of a warmed-up barrel, but it's always a good preformer. I know them da** groundhogs are pretty much gonna be DOA no matter what.

What's the MV of that load? I don't have a clue... gotta remember one thing.. game doesn't care if you miss it at 2700 fps... only if you hit it at 2200 fps..

Couple of thoughts. First off SD and ES are figures. These are supposed to mean a load should be better or worse. With a bit of loading under my belt I can say that if shooting 600 yards or less, worry totally about the results on the target. If going on towards 1000 you need to pay a bit of attention to those 2 factors. But don't let them rule it all. The problem is I have seen many loads with mediocre figures consistently(IE the life of the barrel) shoot tiny groups vs the single digit figures that might shoot moa.

Brief Audette. TEst at 200 or 300 with scope on calm day. Loading 1 round each in increasing charge weights till you hit max( I use the charge breaks normally as 10% of capacity IE about 25 grains on 223 so I go .3 grain increments. Foul the barrel, zero the gun. Then shoot #1 and look at it and map it on another target. Keep shooting till you get to max.

You are looking to see where the groups cluster at. You'll see 3-5 in a cluster, even with increasing powder and MV. Then the next .3 increase will jump up quite a bit and often off to the side. You'll run into a few random shots like that going up and then hit another cluster. You are looking for the highest MV cluster. Then you start by loading 3 round groups there. You are searching for the node or sweet spot in barrel vibrations. These spots will allow charges to increase, and MV and yet will consistenly group in the same cluster.

This has a big plus as if you hopefully take the middle charge weight of a cluster, then you can miss the exact powder charge a few tenths or allow the temps to rise or fall and still be assured you'll be close to the center. If not in it.

What I meant about taking a tight .2 inch group between 2 groups that were moa, was that you could be (it'll make more sense when you see how a target plots out) in a bad node area. Such that only 3 tenths variation or a temperature swing takes you back out to the land of MOA or worse.

Once you've seen it, its quick and makes total sense. Example wise i'd shoot and then say my top cluster is 5 shots. 25.0,25.2,25.4,25.6,25.8. I'd take that and load 3. Shoot each group and record its impact or just measure and paste over(clean target to start with so that you can compare and measure the composite on the back). Lets assume that 25.0 kinda falls a bit short this time and 25.8 is ok but not super. But .2,.4 and .6 still are in the middle. Then load 5 shot groups and repeat. Same results. Now go load 10 shot groups of the same. Bet the results are similar(they may shift up or down one increment which is normal but I tend to keep leaning to the middle charge as long as all else is ok-- IE Imight even take the middle one is .3 with a .2 on one side and .3 on the other as its more in the middle and doesn't suffer much accuracy wise but gives a better leeway). And if the results are similar then pick something in the middle and load and shoot. If you don't trust it still the first time, then load something like a few of each and don't mark the cases and just shoot them random. It may not be the .2 group but you can bet it won't be the MOA group.

I have used it for years. It takes me about 30 rounds to convince myself of a new load in a new match barrel. I am lucky that my parameters are much smaller since I shoot the same tubes over and over. So I know that I can start with about 7 rounds, go back and fire a few 3 shot groups and then fire a 10 shot group in the middle and be done.

Hope thats a quick run down but hope you can understand. I'm so guilty of typing in a hurry and knowing what I am talking about yet not being totally clear when I 'm done. Unless I type a 4 page diatribe...

Let me know.

Jeff

Just noticed the post on not knowing MV. ACtually its true but only to a point. I use the Chrono to let me know if I'm in the range. Heck if I'm shooting a 300 wtby but getting 06 speeds I need to start over again with a new powder or new gun etc.... No need in burning up powder and barrels otherwise.

Jeff