BOLO: Bad Batch of Brass - Win 243
02-27-2017, 09:13 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,904
BOLO: Bad Batch of Brass - Win 243
Winchester Components WSC243WU 243winchester brass Lot number LF41 - high rate of flash hole issues, obviously from a bent flash hole punch during production.
First off - this is not a knock on Winchester product quality. I remain to believe Winchester brass is one of the best choices for hunting loads and I will buy more in the future. However, I AM disappointed in their customer service for returns (see bottom), and I also feel obligated to point out what I would say is a bad batch of brass, with a very apparent equipment breakdown causing a high rate of failures.
I purchased 2 bags, 100pc, and over half of them had flash hole issues.
Just a heads up to my fellow reloaders, I purchased 2 bags, 100pc of this lot number last week, got around to going through them this weekend and while inspecting the brass, it became apparent the flash hole punch became bent, as about 60 out 100 of these had visually distorted flash holes. The flash holes were out of round - oblong - with the flash hole obviously not punched true to the case axis.
I sorted them into groups of:
Perfect --> If I debur the flash holes, I can ignore a few dimples and small divots on the flash hole, so I was able to sort out about 50 I could keep (give or take 10 which will give me heartburn, but I'll survive). I wanted to get to 50 pieces so I could keep one bag and return the other, to which the Winchester Customer Service rep agreed. Only about 43 out of 100 were what I would consider truly "perfect," as in I wouldn't even need to debur and no visible divots or dimples.
Visually Irregular --> There were about 46 which I'm sure would be fine for hunting loads if I deburred the flash holes, but these are meant to be relatively high volume precision loads for one of my pistols, so I'm not going to waste my time with these. To make a batch of 50, I kept the best of the bad from this group, and got it down to 38 pieces. All of these are visibly out of round, with the flash hole obviously not true to the cartridge axis. They're going back to Winchester. I'd call these "cosmetically damaged," and if there were only one or two in the batch, I wouldn't have batted an eye at loading them (or culling them and using the other good 98%).
Unacceptably Damaged --> These included the normal culls you'd find in any batch: one badly gouged case and one case which had crumpled during the shoulder formation (2% failure = perfectly normal). But there were also 10 cases which had flash holes punched an an angle so out of true that I would not load them. I'm keeping a few of these just for reference in my "box of damaged cases," then sending the rest back to Winchester.
Mind you - I'm completely OK having 2% unusable cases and ~5% cosmetically damaged cases. And again - the flash holes in the "visibly irregular" group I sorted are all fine for hunting loads, and if there were only one or two, instead of 46 out of 100, I'd not have even noticed.
Based on these two bags, batch LF41 had about 50% cosmetic issues, and 12% unusable brass.
The other downside - Winchester Customer Service sent me a mailing label to ship them back, AND they did agree I could mix my two bags (which I already had done) and keep the good ones, and only send back my culls, so instead of having 0 bags and sending back 2, I could send back one and keep one. BUT... They also mentioned it'll take 2 months after they get my brass to process the return, then send me a check as reimbursement. As I often say - it's 2017. They could have simply shipped me a bag of brass today, or they could have issued a refund to a card or account by wire immediately, or they could process faster than 2months, plus shipping both ways...
First off - this is not a knock on Winchester product quality. I remain to believe Winchester brass is one of the best choices for hunting loads and I will buy more in the future. However, I AM disappointed in their customer service for returns (see bottom), and I also feel obligated to point out what I would say is a bad batch of brass, with a very apparent equipment breakdown causing a high rate of failures.
I purchased 2 bags, 100pc, and over half of them had flash hole issues.
Just a heads up to my fellow reloaders, I purchased 2 bags, 100pc of this lot number last week, got around to going through them this weekend and while inspecting the brass, it became apparent the flash hole punch became bent, as about 60 out 100 of these had visually distorted flash holes. The flash holes were out of round - oblong - with the flash hole obviously not punched true to the case axis.
I sorted them into groups of:
Perfect --> If I debur the flash holes, I can ignore a few dimples and small divots on the flash hole, so I was able to sort out about 50 I could keep (give or take 10 which will give me heartburn, but I'll survive). I wanted to get to 50 pieces so I could keep one bag and return the other, to which the Winchester Customer Service rep agreed. Only about 43 out of 100 were what I would consider truly "perfect," as in I wouldn't even need to debur and no visible divots or dimples.
Visually Irregular --> There were about 46 which I'm sure would be fine for hunting loads if I deburred the flash holes, but these are meant to be relatively high volume precision loads for one of my pistols, so I'm not going to waste my time with these. To make a batch of 50, I kept the best of the bad from this group, and got it down to 38 pieces. All of these are visibly out of round, with the flash hole obviously not true to the cartridge axis. They're going back to Winchester. I'd call these "cosmetically damaged," and if there were only one or two in the batch, I wouldn't have batted an eye at loading them (or culling them and using the other good 98%).
Unacceptably Damaged --> These included the normal culls you'd find in any batch: one badly gouged case and one case which had crumpled during the shoulder formation (2% failure = perfectly normal). But there were also 10 cases which had flash holes punched an an angle so out of true that I would not load them. I'm keeping a few of these just for reference in my "box of damaged cases," then sending the rest back to Winchester.
Mind you - I'm completely OK having 2% unusable cases and ~5% cosmetically damaged cases. And again - the flash holes in the "visibly irregular" group I sorted are all fine for hunting loads, and if there were only one or two, instead of 46 out of 100, I'd not have even noticed.
Based on these two bags, batch LF41 had about 50% cosmetic issues, and 12% unusable brass.
The other downside - Winchester Customer Service sent me a mailing label to ship them back, AND they did agree I could mix my two bags (which I already had done) and keep the good ones, and only send back my culls, so instead of having 0 bags and sending back 2, I could send back one and keep one. BUT... They also mentioned it'll take 2 months after they get my brass to process the return, then send me a check as reimbursement. As I often say - it's 2017. They could have simply shipped me a bag of brass today, or they could have issued a refund to a card or account by wire immediately, or they could process faster than 2months, plus shipping both ways...
Last edited by Nomercy448; 02-27-2017 at 10:35 AM.
03-31-2017, 06:12 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 12,746
That is a very odd looking flash hole. Looks like they almost have been run through the production line twice to re-punch the flash hole! I'm not privy to the brass manufacturing process as I've only watched a couple videos on how it was made.
I know I've had Remington brass where the flash hole was punched off center slightly. Which is likely from a bent punch or a mis-alignment. Again, I'm a bit ignorant to the process.
I know I've had Remington brass where the flash hole was punched off center slightly. Which is likely from a bent punch or a mis-alignment. Again, I'm a bit ignorant to the process.
04-01-2017, 10:29 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,904
When I first noticed them, I thought it was a "double strike" where they had been punched twice, but as I lined up all of the cases and really looked at them, it's clear the punch had bent. My photography skills aren't on par with those of my wife, so I couldn't well display the punches - double punches produce two parallel punch holes, these are kind of triangular shaped. If I insert a drill bit into the flash holes, it'll only go through at an angle, and won't stand up true (as it would in a double punch).
Winchester is taking care of it, but it really seems silly to take THAT long to handle it, and I'd much rather get product replacement instead of a check. I had money, and wanted brass. Now I'm getting money back - which is ok, but I still want brass (which I admittedly have already ordered).
I picked up another 100 pc of .30-06 win brass this week, and have since bought 100pc to replace this bad batch of 243 brass. 200 perfectly punched flash holes.
I DID look at Cabelas the week after, they had two bags of the same lot on the shelf, I could see the same error through the package, so I took them up to customer service. Funny enough, she started to give me an in store credit because she thought I was returning them! Nope - just looking out for my fellow reloaders!
Winchester is taking care of it, but it really seems silly to take THAT long to handle it, and I'd much rather get product replacement instead of a check. I had money, and wanted brass. Now I'm getting money back - which is ok, but I still want brass (which I admittedly have already ordered).
I picked up another 100 pc of .30-06 win brass this week, and have since bought 100pc to replace this bad batch of 243 brass. 200 perfectly punched flash holes.
I DID look at Cabelas the week after, they had two bags of the same lot on the shelf, I could see the same error through the package, so I took them up to customer service. Funny enough, she started to give me an in store credit because she thought I was returning them! Nope - just looking out for my fellow reloaders!
