Clogging has been a known problem for years with JHP's. Lot's of new tech out there nowadays in regards to bullets. I like the XTP's for the wife but I have recently (in the last year or so) been introduced to the Lehigh Defense manufacturer. Mainly in their MLer bullets but I did get some of their Xtreme Penetrator for my .458 SOCOM for hogs. Excellent performance. Good enough that I am going to get some of their pistol bullets for one of my .45ACP's, probably the old trusty colt since she aint to picky about bullets but sassy about powders, and do some testing.

Namely these

And these

Those last ones are the same design as I got for the SOCOM just littler :D

That defense bullet is interesting. In .38 it is a 100 gr bullet but they claim 18" penetration. Their video is impressive.
Have you tried the defense bullet yet?
Do you know if anyone carries them or is it best to order from manufacture?
The video and propaganda is quite impressive but it is back to the light bullet again but a much different design.
No doubt it would perform different being solid copper if I read that right.
Could this be the faster lower recoil bullet I was looking for and this one works? Could it have penetration without over penetration thus working well as a defense round where no shoot targets are present.
Sounds like that is exactly how it was designed.
It would be good to hear some first hand experience with these bullets.

Super_Hunter54,

Lord knows, since I've gotten in to the bad guy chasing business, there have been many "perfect bullet" marketed to shooters. The ones that have stuck around are the ones with proven efficacy.

I've always have gone with the FBI load for .38 Special self-defense. I prefer the SWC design to the SWCHP design. But either will bring out the best that the .38 Special can offer. If I have a .357 Mag revolver near me and it's intended for bad guy self-defense, it's loaded with the FBI load.

If you were to read Street Survival, penetration will make complete sense to you. Superficial wounds have little benefit. Unless you hit a bad guy's CNS, he'll probably take a whole lot of lead before he stops ticking. Double that if he's under the influence of drugs including alcohol. Triple it if he's under the influence of PCP (dusted). Hence, you'll have to reduce his blood pressure to zero yesterday before he is able to kill you. That is why I like heavy for caliber bullets. If one hole is good, two have to be twice as good. And keep in mind that there's a real possibility that the bad guy will have at least one buddy lingering in the area. Therefore, the longer your attention is focused on one bad guy, the greater the danger you're in.

I'm good with guys who believe accuracy is the key to gunfights. That belief was around since the beginning of gun fighting. Some beliefs die a very slow death. The wise, the experienced, the professionals know that not getting shot is 2nd most important, superseded only by gunfight avoidance. Therefore, it's wise to keep in mind that a bad guy with is heart destroyed (assuming a good guy is so lucky) he'll still live long enough to be able to kill you. If you want to remain upright, you must never make yourself an easy target.

If you remember the two dominant rules of gun fighting, you'll live a long and happy life.

Rule 1: The only certain way of surviving a gunfight is to not get in one

Rule 2: If Rule 1 is unavoidable, don't get shot.

Cops have to engage. It's their job. Civilians do not have to engage if escape is an option. Always take the escape option if it's available.

Read Street Survival. It might help you save your life.


Stay safe, hombre

You've got it wired.

This post is nothing more than opinion and assumption, all of it wrong.

It's a lot more wise to go with facts: http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=741

I prefer 158 grain SWC bullets. But others prefer different designs.

While shooting is always good, keep in mind that target shooting is not tactical shooting. Tactical shooting is defined as shooting that's designed to keep you alive.

Some hopefully helpful advice: set up two silhouette targets. About 8 feet behind where you'll engage your targets, set up what would be a barrier. Engage both targets from about six feet using hip point while running to safety of the barrier. I'm going with some practice, you'll be able to score hits on both targets while making it to safety behind your barrier.

BTW, barrier is defined as an object that'll stop handgun rounds.

Hi super_hunt54,

I've already posted a link to the felony murder rule. Here is California Penal Code Section 197 verbatim:

Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:

1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

CA statutory law protects civilians equally as police officers when it comes to using deadly force.

super_hunt54, instead of using the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem, refute facts I've posted. I'm good with Socratic debate when the objective is fleshing out knowledge.

This is the US Supreme Court controlling case defining police office use of deadly force: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed...71/1/case.html

Best of luck to you

Well the winner in my book,which only includes bullets available to me,is the Hornady xtp 158 gr HP loaded to +P.
Under the same conditions as the earlier shots this bullet opened up as designed penetrated completely and retained a little more weight that the others.
I am not able to compete any longer but I know what moving and shooting is about. In competition it is fact that you can not miss fast enough to win.That might be true in other situations.
Talking about trained operators going head to head is one thing. Talking about Street punk holding a hi point sideways is another.
A fellow can't believe everything he reads. I read that 110 gr HP was the new best load for snub nose revolvers. Not so.

As I said earlier RR, I've only tried that design out of my SOCOM. I got busted up a good while back so I didn't get to hog hunt with it but I let one of my buddies use the SOCOM with those bullets loaded up. He dropped several hogs with various points for testing. Head, neck, and shoulder shots. Head shots= obliterated head. Neck shots= 2+inches of spinal removal. Shoulder shots= lungs a gooy mess and not a lot of heart left and 2 busted shoulders. Needless to say, the design works VERY well at rifle speeds. All the testing I have seen with the .45ACP loads look to be just as devastating.

As far as the controlled fracturing bullet goes, I have been using a MLer bullet called Bloodline that is similar in action. The petals break off and go in 3 (4 with the Bloodline) directions cutting everything in their path while the body of the bullet punches through. My daughter dropped a pretty dang big bodied buck last season with a Bloodline right in it's tracks. Lungs were a gooy mess and the spine was missing about an inch and a half of column. High shoulder shots are definitely productive on a deer :D

And where in all that does it give a civilian ANY protection whatsoever against ACCIDENTAL INJURY OR DEATH of a bystander? That was what we were talking about. NOT the shooting of a perp. Run and gun, spray and pray, suppressive fire, whatever vernacular you wish to use is NOT an accepted method in public. Plain and simple. Civilians are left open to both monetary as well a criminal actions.

You are bringing a very old saying to my mind, "those who can't do or have never done, TEACH"! Mando, you keep telling me to read a copy of some book. Why would I need to? I've LIVED through more firefights than I care to even think about. And I have never in my life injured an innocent civilian in any conflicts. The method you are preaching is dangerous to ANYONE around the area. I wouldn't want some mothers death on my mind the rest of my life because I was runnin and gunnin without thought for innocent lives. Just look at the city of Chicago at all those innocent women and children that have been shot by your "trained" thugs. Guess what method they use?? Spray and pray!!! Get your head out of those books Mando because real life conflicts are VERY different when going through them!