Hi super_hunt54,

I'm good.

You might want to rethink 110 grain penetration. If your wife were to have to shoot through a barrier, she'll assuredly wish she had the FBI load.

In a gunfight, your wife would be lucky to hit a bad guy, let alone a 10 ring shot. Were a bad guy to put rounds on a good guy, Rule 2 is controlling. If your wife takes time to precisely aim her handgun, her body might end up as evidence.

If you're looking for enhanced performance, look heavier. The greater momentum, penetration, and expansion on the bigger pills - even running slower - is impossible to deny.

Look at the old flying ash trays!!!! 230grn ball rounds in the 45ACP doing 950fps. They called them the one shot stoppers for a reason!!!! Not fast, just hit like a truck when they got there!!!!

I'll venture to guess neither of us is an experienced gunfighter.

One thing that does, however, stand out from writings by gunfighters in the Old West is that 1) encounters tended to be at close range) and 2) people's first reaction was to shoot as quickly as possible, firing off as many rounds as possible, and they consequently were not as effective as the people who weren't actually the fastest.

Of course one doesn't take the time aiming a pistol like they do aiming a rifle from a deer stand, nor do they aim as precisely...but if the military trains people to focus on what's behind the front sight before pulling the trigger, they're probably onto something.

We are all legally liable for every single bullet that exits the barrel. A shot that goes into the roof or 2.2 feet to the left of the target doesn't help save your life---if anything, it forces you to spend more time getting on target (because you weren't in the first place), giving the "bad guy" more time to shoot you than if you just took an extra .25 seconds to actually make your shot count. Then, if you're lucky enough to be dealing with someone who didn't capitalize on your poor aim, you might have killed an innocent bystander.

Unlike cartridge choice, tactics aren't a trade-off. There's no downside to having control over your bullet placement, even when you're shooting without hesitation at a target. If the dreaded moment arises, all I'm worried about is getting on target and THEN pulling the trigger quick (rinse repeat).

Well I HAVE been on the receiving as well as delivery end of a few. And I can tell you with absolute certainty that accuracy matters! And if the situation demands the use of force, good training takes over. Your average bad guy 99.9% of the time is untrained and is capitalizing on fear factor from most encounters. When faced by well trained people, bad guy's 99.9% of the time lose. I have no doubt in my mind that if the situation called for force, my little wife would fall back on her training as instinct. She can pull all 5 rounds from her little lady smith in under 6 seconds with all 5 in the kill zone. She's not a police officer and would, 99.9% of the time, NOT have to worry about cover penetration. Civilian encounters are usually blitz attacks and rarely, if ever, are fired from cover. I put her through her paces when training her. Shooting with heart rate accelerated, shooting after running for a distance, shooting after pushups (that was fun to watch her get madder every one), shooting after grappling with my oldest daughter. I have to admit, my little woman is probably one of the better trained civilians out there. Confidence in her equipment is key for her. As I said, if she doesn't have 100% confidence she can hit her mark with EVERY shot, then she will break down in a tight situation. Heavier bullets don't mean a damn thing if they don't find their mark!

With having worked as a LEO for over 25 yrs now, I have seen that most shooting instances happen with in 21ft. The closer you are to your assailant, the faster you have to aquier your target and make your shots count before he does his or hers.
That's why I advocate dry fire practice at home. I teach the shooting portion of CCW for people who feel they may not qualify for the test.
I tell them to practice in their home with the weapon that they are most likely to carry.
I tell them to make sure the weapon is unloaded, clear and safe. Take all the ammo into another room completely and secure it. Do it while alone so they can practice without disturbance.
I tell them to dress for that time of year and place their carry weapon on them like they plan on carrying.
Pick out a small spot on the wall or item at about 21ft if possible. Then standing comfortable with arms at their side, draw. If they are not able to draw and get at least 1 round off in 2 seconds without the sights leaving that spot, they need to look at how they are carrying and modify it. Then, they need to change/modify how they carry.

I find it interesting that some of the most famous gunfighters like Wild Bill used pistols like the .36 Navy shooting round ball.
Wyatt Earp was supposed to have said that it was the man who was cool enough to make his first shot count that was dangerous or something to that effect.
Some of the operators who are the real deal are just amazing how fast and accurate they are.
I lost a good friend years ago. He was shot at from distance with a .22 rifle. The bullet hit a piece of steel and shaved off a sliver that went between his ribs and into his heart.
When I worked with the EMS I helped pick up a young man who had been shot in the chest with a 12 gauge shotgun at a distance of less than ten feet. The shot was still in the cup when it hit him so it cut a hole about the size of a quarter. He was walking around when we got there and was not in hospital long.
I have seen several strange things. It seems to come down to whither your number is up.
So far Situational awareness and not being in places I shouldn't be has served me well.
I am going to do some penetration tests with different bullets and see what I come up with concerning faster velocity lighter bullets and slower heavies. From the multitude of testing available to look at there does not seem to be a great lot of difference in the two per some tests.
I have some old books I am going to use.I think it might be interesting but may not have much to do with real life.

Its not who is the fastest, its who's the most accurate is who will be telling the story later!!!!

Well, I'll go with many of us having different exposure to gun fighting. Cops used to be taught the Weaver stance with precise aiming. That all changed around 1987. The old training was causing a lot of cops to lose gunfights, many after taking rounds to the head because the Weaver stance placed their heads in bad guys' lines of sight. After scientific analyses of gunfights, the farthest cops were taught to shoot was 15 yards. At that distance, only the front sight is used. Closer than 15 yards it was all shoulder point except for 6 yards and less. Then hip point was indicated.

Any hit on a bad guy is a good hit. There is no such thing as a bad hit.

If you want to remain a taxpayer and cannot avoid a gunfight, you must never become an easy target for a bad guy who wants you supine on a fiberglass autopsy gurney. Taking time to aim might well cost you your life. If you want to live and you cannot avoid a gun fight, never make yourself an easy target. Run to a barrier and get behind it. Better, run and keep running until you're out of harm's way.

After you've mastered point shooting, then work on shooting while moving. If you remain stationary, you will be giving a bad guy who wants you dead a very easy target.

What gunfighters of the 19th century might have done has zero application to the 21st century. If Wyatt Earp had access to a 1911A1, do you think he'd of carried a Peacemaker?

Bad guys train. Many have military experience. Rarely will a bad guy do bad things alone. That means that good guys have to scan for bad guys' buddies.

Accuracy is nowhere as important as not getting shot. Precise accuracy is very old school. Now cops are taught to shoot and keep shooting until a bad guy is no longer a threat.

Closing in on two weeks ago I taught a couple friends how to point shoot. One had new sights put on his new CCW handgun. I asked him why he went with new sights. He had no idea of point shooting. So we all went to a nearby indoor range. I went first with an old duty gun. Keep in mind that I haven't point shot since I've retired. My first round hit the 10 ring. The target was about 10 yards distant. Then they tried. Before we left, both had point shooting wired.

The most accurate in a gunfight does not always win, disregarding the fact that it would be extremely difficult to determine the most accurate. I can tell you that the one who doesn't get shot will win. And winning a gunfight is determined by survival. If a good guy dies, he loses. Keep in mind that a human being with his heart destroyed can live another eight seconds, more than enough time to kill a good guy.

Another spurious criterion is number of rounds fired as a metric of gun fighting. When cops fire hundreds of rounds and hit no one, it's a good shooting if cops survive. There is tactical benefit of suppressive or cover fire if it prevents bad guys from shooting at good guys. So when I hear cops fired many magazines, I determine success by their survival. Never die with rounds in your gun.

I highly recommend this book: https://play.google.com/store/books/...UFlA&gclsrc=ds I'm not sure if calibre Press will sell it to those not in law enforcement. Libraries, especially university libraries will almost assuredly have a copy of it. Were you to read it, it might change your mind about what you thought was right.

Never forget the primary rule of gunfighting: the only certain way of surviving a gunfight is to not get in one. Rule 2: if you cannot avoid, you must not get shot.

It's a wise idea to keep in mind that bad guys train. Many have military experience. Bad guys rarely do bad things alone. That puts a lone good guy at extreme peril. One good guy vs. one bad guy = bad odds for the good guy. Hence, avoid at all costs.

One final point: you have to have a survivor's mindset. You have to be prepared to accept that much of what you now believe might just be wrong...dead wrong.

When I carry a gun for self defense, it's either a .40 S&W or a .45 ACP. I carry heavy-for-caliber bullets in my guns.

A citizen does not have a union or municipality to back him. I would think the only thing worse that getting shot by a bad guy would be firing many unaimed rounds and discovering unintended causalities.
And not to argue that a single action compares to a semi auto but have you ever been to a Cowboy Action Shoot.
Perhaps more than one discipline is in order according to the circumstances at hand.
In my case I can't imagine I would ever be trading shots at distance.If I had a chance or was able to run I would have already done that. I won't know what is going to happen till it starts happening or I would be gone already.If I should have a chance to produce a weapon it will probably chance or trickery.If I should get off a shot it would most likely be close and better be good.
I am not a cop. I am not military. I will not be on the offensive.I am not the Lone Ranger and I know it.
I am a citizen responsible for every round.If I fire a shot it will cost me most of what I have. If I hit anything it will cost me everything I have.
I do not disagree with anything said in this thread. I just think a man better think about who he is and what his priorities are.
I don't think a lot of suppression fire would go over to well in a mall.

No kidding!

I'd want the situation to end as quickly as possible, because when authorities arrive, they do not know who the good guy is and who the bad guy is.
Even if it ends quickly and you are the one who makes the 911 call reporting the incident, the police might handcuff you and take you for questioning until their investigation has gotten a sense of what happened. They'll almost assuredly take your gun as evidence, temporarily, too.
But it won't even be that good if you've still got a gun in your hand and are firing it when they arrive. Better to make shots count...as has been said, don't obsess over it like you're making a 25 yard target shot, but be deliberate.