Newbie Questions
12-11-2008, 12:31 PM
#1
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 538
Newbie Questions
I recently purchased the RCBS Rockchucker Master kit. I added a caliper, powder trickler and case trimmer. I have read both the Speer and Lyman manuals and have been educating myself on the net for the past month. I decided to start with a 30-06 Ruger No. 1 with the following components: New Winchester brass, Winchester large rifle primers, 165 gr Sierra Gamekings, IMR 4064. I have a couple of questions that I would like some advice on.
1) I started with new brass, resized and trimmed all. When deburring, how smooth is smooth? Some of the cases were difficult to remove the lip from the outer edge of the case while others were difficult on the inside of the case. I used the deburring and chamfer tool that came with the kit.
2) According to the Speer manual, when working up a load, they recommend 7 shot groups for "the highest degree of statistical confidence with the fewest shots". How do most people go about working up a load? 7 shot groups vs 5 shot groups? Start with the starting charge and work up by 1/2 gr intervals?
3) IMR's website lists the C.O.L. at 3.300" while Speer and Lyman list it at 3.340". I began with 3.340 and chambered a round with no resistance. How do I determine what the correct C.O.L. is for MY gun when starting a load?
4) While priming with the hand primer that came with the kit, one of the cases was much more difficult to seat the primer than the others. If I wanted to remove the primer to inspect the pocket, do I remove the primer as I would a spent case or do I follow other precautions?
Thanks for any and all info, tips or advice.
1) I started with new brass, resized and trimmed all. When deburring, how smooth is smooth? Some of the cases were difficult to remove the lip from the outer edge of the case while others were difficult on the inside of the case. I used the deburring and chamfer tool that came with the kit.
2) According to the Speer manual, when working up a load, they recommend 7 shot groups for "the highest degree of statistical confidence with the fewest shots". How do most people go about working up a load? 7 shot groups vs 5 shot groups? Start with the starting charge and work up by 1/2 gr intervals?
3) IMR's website lists the C.O.L. at 3.300" while Speer and Lyman list it at 3.340". I began with 3.340 and chambered a round with no resistance. How do I determine what the correct C.O.L. is for MY gun when starting a load?
4) While priming with the hand primer that came with the kit, one of the cases was much more difficult to seat the primer than the others. If I wanted to remove the primer to inspect the pocket, do I remove the primer as I would a spent case or do I follow other precautions?
Thanks for any and all info, tips or advice.
12-11-2008, 01:09 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,329
RE: Newbie Questions
I will try to answer some of your questions but take some of what I say with a grain of salt since I've only been at this about two years.
4) yes you can just use the de-priming tool to remove them. Just go nice and easy.
3) You're going to need a oal guage that measures the distance to the lands. Hornady makes the tool now called a Lock N Load OAL guage. You'll need the blanks for you rifle too or you can send fire formed brass to Hornady and they will make the brass fit the tool.
2) I shoot three shot groups and when I get a good one I try to get it to shoot a five shot group. I'm not sure you need statistical significance unless your shooting way out there. Like past 500 yards or so.
You'll have to wait on one.
Tom
4) yes you can just use the de-priming tool to remove them. Just go nice and easy.
3) You're going to need a oal guage that measures the distance to the lands. Hornady makes the tool now called a Lock N Load OAL guage. You'll need the blanks for you rifle too or you can send fire formed brass to Hornady and they will make the brass fit the tool.
2) I shoot three shot groups and when I get a good one I try to get it to shoot a five shot group. I'm not sure you need statistical significance unless your shooting way out there. Like past 500 yards or so.
You'll have to wait on one.
Tom
12-13-2008, 07:13 AM
#3
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 538
RE: Newbie Questions
Let me get this right.
2) I felt that 7 was excessive, but also feel that 3 is not a large enough sample. 5 it is. Do you normally start by loading lots of 3-5 with 1/2 grain increases of powder? Then determine which loads show promise and proceed to do more extensive testing.
3) The only way to determine the C.O.L. for my rifle is to measure the distance to the lands with a gauge? Is their any other way?
2) I felt that 7 was excessive, but also feel that 3 is not a large enough sample. 5 it is. Do you normally start by loading lots of 3-5 with 1/2 grain increases of powder? Then determine which loads show promise and proceed to do more extensive testing.
3) The only way to determine the C.O.L. for my rifle is to measure the distance to the lands with a gauge? Is their any other way?
12-13-2008, 08:07 AM
#4
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 819
RE: Newbie Questions
Wayspr, a three shot group is the norm when working up loads for a hunting rifle as it is typically all the shots you are going to get at an animal, before it's either dead or runs off unscathed.
If you want to shoot groups with more rounds for accuracy testing, you should let the gun cool between rounds fired. As a barrel heats up it will "walk" and your groups won't be real world first shot accuracy representative.
As far as working up loads, what I do is find the bullet I want to use and then try as many powders as I can behind that bullet.
I make 4 bullets for each powder type. I make 1 bullet at the hottest load listed, one grain below that, and2 below that (one for a fouling shot). So if the max load is 57 grains, I'll make one at 57,56, and 2 at 55.
Starting with a clean gun, fire one of the lowest grain loads of the first powder. This is a fouling round. Typically a clean gun will throw its first bullet to a different point of impact than the following rounds. Mark that bullet on the paper (at least in your mind) and then fire your other lowest grain round. while watching for signs of pressure, fire the next hottest and then the max load. Mark that target with a pen as to what it was, primer, powder charge, and bullet, brass etc. Typically I will measure them and document that also.
Then put up a fresh target, and clean the gun. Repeat this process with each powder type, always watching for signs of pressure. If you see telltale signs of pressure, stop there.
What you will see is one powder, even though made with varying charges, will group very well. Take that powder, charge,bullet,primer combo and make a dozen or so rounds. And go back to the range with a clean gun and fire several groups, letting the barrel cool between volleys.
What you are looking for is the "hottest" load with the best accuracy. It must also be a load that you can shoot comfortably that doesn't cause you to flinch.
This process will save you a lo of money in components and time. I used to go through 100 or more bullets searching for recipes for different guns, and this cuts down the expense considerably. Check with friends for different powder types instead of buying them just to try. They can then borrow some of yours when searching for that perfect load.
If you want to shoot groups with more rounds for accuracy testing, you should let the gun cool between rounds fired. As a barrel heats up it will "walk" and your groups won't be real world first shot accuracy representative.
As far as working up loads, what I do is find the bullet I want to use and then try as many powders as I can behind that bullet.
I make 4 bullets for each powder type. I make 1 bullet at the hottest load listed, one grain below that, and2 below that (one for a fouling shot). So if the max load is 57 grains, I'll make one at 57,56, and 2 at 55.
Starting with a clean gun, fire one of the lowest grain loads of the first powder. This is a fouling round. Typically a clean gun will throw its first bullet to a different point of impact than the following rounds. Mark that bullet on the paper (at least in your mind) and then fire your other lowest grain round. while watching for signs of pressure, fire the next hottest and then the max load. Mark that target with a pen as to what it was, primer, powder charge, and bullet, brass etc. Typically I will measure them and document that also.
Then put up a fresh target, and clean the gun. Repeat this process with each powder type, always watching for signs of pressure. If you see telltale signs of pressure, stop there.
What you will see is one powder, even though made with varying charges, will group very well. Take that powder, charge,bullet,primer combo and make a dozen or so rounds. And go back to the range with a clean gun and fire several groups, letting the barrel cool between volleys.
What you are looking for is the "hottest" load with the best accuracy. It must also be a load that you can shoot comfortably that doesn't cause you to flinch.
This process will save you a lo of money in components and time. I used to go through 100 or more bullets searching for recipes for different guns, and this cuts down the expense considerably. Check with friends for different powder types instead of buying them just to try. They can then borrow some of yours when searching for that perfect load.
12-13-2008, 08:17 AM
#5
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 819
RE: Newbie Questions
ORIGINAL: Wayspr
Let me get this right.
2) I felt that 7 was excessive, but also feel that 3 is not a large enough sample. 5 it is. Do you normally start by loading lots of 3-5 with 1/2 grain increases of powder? Then determine which loads show promise and proceed to do more extensive testing.
3) The only way to determine the C.O.L. for my rifle is to measure the distance to the lands with a gauge? Is their any other way?
Let me get this right.
2) I felt that 7 was excessive, but also feel that 3 is not a large enough sample. 5 it is. Do you normally start by loading lots of 3-5 with 1/2 grain increases of powder? Then determine which loads show promise and proceed to do more extensive testing.
3) The only way to determine the C.O.L. for my rifle is to measure the distance to the lands with a gauge? Is their any other way?
http://natchezss.com/brand.cfm?contentID=productDetail&brand=SQ& ;category=0&prodID=SQ040000
12-13-2008, 12:04 PM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 240
RE: Newbie Questions
Remnard, how do you find any accuracy? Sounds to me like you are shooting two shot groups and the 2 shots you are using for group are at max load?
Anyway I like the Sierra manual the best! Go with their posted most accurate load and see what happens. I like 5 shot groups because that eliminates a whole bunch of variables. Flinch, pulled shot etc. Playing with loads is the funnest part of reloading so don't go on the cheap. I go to the range with 5 shots of the published accurate load and then I'll have 5 shots .5 grains below and 5 shots .5 grains above and 5 shots 1 grain above. Check for pressure when you start working up. A cronograph is also a great tool. When you record your shots through the crony see what is the most accurate and also what has the lowest extream spread. I like to play with different powders too and I'll load them the same way as noted before. Once you find what powder and charge works the best you can play with seating depth. You don't need the Hornady tool but is nice to have. You can find the lands by marking a bullet with a sharpie and close the bolt. You'll either see marks on the bullet or you wont. Seat the bullet out further or in further till you find that magical spot. With a factory gun I doubt you notice much difference in seating depth so what I would do is once you have your load to where you want it seat your bullet from there .010" deeper and .010" longer you could probably go .015". In a custom gun i go with .005" incriments. See what it does.
There are so many little tricks to aid in accuracy it's not funny. Play, Play, Play it's the best way to learn
Anyway I like the Sierra manual the best! Go with their posted most accurate load and see what happens. I like 5 shot groups because that eliminates a whole bunch of variables. Flinch, pulled shot etc. Playing with loads is the funnest part of reloading so don't go on the cheap. I go to the range with 5 shots of the published accurate load and then I'll have 5 shots .5 grains below and 5 shots .5 grains above and 5 shots 1 grain above. Check for pressure when you start working up. A cronograph is also a great tool. When you record your shots through the crony see what is the most accurate and also what has the lowest extream spread. I like to play with different powders too and I'll load them the same way as noted before. Once you find what powder and charge works the best you can play with seating depth. You don't need the Hornady tool but is nice to have. You can find the lands by marking a bullet with a sharpie and close the bolt. You'll either see marks on the bullet or you wont. Seat the bullet out further or in further till you find that magical spot. With a factory gun I doubt you notice much difference in seating depth so what I would do is once you have your load to where you want it seat your bullet from there .010" deeper and .010" longer you could probably go .015". In a custom gun i go with .005" incriments. See what it does.
There are so many little tricks to aid in accuracy it's not funny. Play, Play, Play it's the best way to learn
12-14-2008, 06:15 AM
#7
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 819
RE: Newbie Questions
ORIGINAL: gunnermhr
Remnard, how do you find any accuracy? Sounds to me like you are shooting two shot groups and the 2 shots you are using for group are at max load?
Anyway I like the Sierra manual the best! Go with their posted most accurate load and see what happens. I like 5 shot groups because that eliminates a whole bunch of variables. Flinch, pulled shot etc. Playing with loads is the funnest part of reloading so don't go on the cheap. I go to the range with 5 shots of the published accurate load and then I'll have 5 shots .5 grains below and 5 shots .5 grains above and 5 shots 1 grain above. Check for pressure when you start working up. A cronograph is also a great tool. When you record your shots through the crony see what is the most accurate and also what has the lowest extream spread.
I like to play with different powders too and I'll load them the same way as noted before. Once you find what powder and charge works the best you can play with seating depth. You don't need the Hornady tool but is nice to have. You can find the lands by marking a bullet with a sharpie and close the bolt. You'll either see marks on the bullet or you wont. Seat the bullet out further or in further till you find that magical spot. With a factory gun I doubt you notice much difference in seating depth so what I would do is once you have your load to where you want it seat your bullet from there .010" deeper and .010" longer you could probably go .015". In a custom gun i go with .005" incriments. See what it does.
There are so many little tricks to aid in accuracy it's not funny. Play, Play, Play it's the best way to learn
Remnard, how do you find any accuracy? Sounds to me like you are shooting two shot groups and the 2 shots you are using for group are at max load?
Anyway I like the Sierra manual the best! Go with their posted most accurate load and see what happens. I like 5 shot groups because that eliminates a whole bunch of variables. Flinch, pulled shot etc. Playing with loads is the funnest part of reloading so don't go on the cheap. I go to the range with 5 shots of the published accurate load and then I'll have 5 shots .5 grains below and 5 shots .5 grains above and 5 shots 1 grain above. Check for pressure when you start working up. A cronograph is also a great tool. When you record your shots through the crony see what is the most accurate and also what has the lowest extream spread.
I like to play with different powders too and I'll load them the same way as noted before. Once you find what powder and charge works the best you can play with seating depth. You don't need the Hornady tool but is nice to have. You can find the lands by marking a bullet with a sharpie and close the bolt. You'll either see marks on the bullet or you wont. Seat the bullet out further or in further till you find that magical spot. With a factory gun I doubt you notice much difference in seating depth so what I would do is once you have your load to where you want it seat your bullet from there .010" deeper and .010" longer you could probably go .015". In a custom gun i go with .005" incriments. See what it does.
There are so many little tricks to aid in accuracy it's not funny. Play, Play, Play it's the best way to learn
Yes, the range is the best part! I don't bother with the chronograph until I have found the hottest load that shows no signs of pressure in my gun.
And there are other ways to find OAL for a particular gun without an over all length cartridge tool, but since the tool is there, why not use it? I used to use a sharpie, but this way is much easier.
12-14-2008, 10:07 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: S.W. Pa.-- Heart in North Central Pa. mountains-
Posts: 2,600
RE: Newbie Questions
....Personally, I've always felt that a 3-shot group is a fair indicator of the potential of a given load, but a 5-shot group will usually help determine the credibility of the load. To me, saying a 3-shot group is all you need because you probably will never get more than 3 shots at an animal does nothing to validate the consistency of a load combination. It's apples and oranges. If you have ever done much bench work, you should realize that a given gun may shoot the first three in a decent group, and then launch 4 or 5 somewhere else that blows your bubble. It happens all the time. It's the consistant, uniform time-after-time day-after-day values that the 5-shot group will give you, after you find that magical combination that keeps all 5 in the same location.
I'm quite aware that many folks use the 3-shot group therory and are happy with it. I'm just not one of them. Never will be. JMHO......
I'm quite aware that many folks use the 3-shot group therory and are happy with it. I'm just not one of them. Never will be. JMHO......
12-14-2008, 01:48 PM
#9
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 240
RE: Newbie Questions
ORIGINAL: Remnard
I make 4 bullets for each powder type. I make 1 bullet at the hottest load listed, one grain below that, and2 below that (one for a fouling shot). So if the max load is 57 grains, I'll make one at 57,56, and 2 at 55.
I make 4 bullets for each powder type. I make 1 bullet at the hottest load listed, one grain below that, and2 below that (one for a fouling shot). So if the max load is 57 grains, I'll make one at 57,56, and 2 at 55.
There is a description on 6mmbr.com about shooting ladders for load development that works real good. I haven't used it but a lot of guys do with good results.
12-14-2008, 03:03 PM
#10
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 819
RE: Newbie Questions
ORIGINAL: gunnermhr
I'm not going to yell at you with the bold print. This is in no way a 4 shot group. You are using 3 different powder charges. You might as well shot out of different guns. Load development is for ONE particular load. Always shoot a fowling shot then go for your group. I never go to a match and shoot my first shot out of a clean barrel for score, nor do I go hunting with a clean barrel. I only have one gun that a clean barrel doesn't effect accuracy too much and I still fowl that barrel.
There is a description on 6mmbr.com about shooting ladders for load development that works real good. I haven't used it but a lot of guys do with good results.
ORIGINAL: Remnard
I make 4 bullets for each powder type. I make 1 bullet at the hottest load listed, one grain below that, and2 below that (one for a fouling shot). So if the max load is 57 grains, I'll make one at 57,56, and 2 at 55.
I make 4 bullets for each powder type. I make 1 bullet at the hottest load listed, one grain below that, and2 below that (one for a fouling shot). So if the max load is 57 grains, I'll make one at 57,56, and 2 at 55.
There is a description on 6mmbr.com about shooting ladders for load development that works real good. I haven't used it but a lot of guys do with good results.
As far as hunting with a clean barrel which you never do, have you ever been at camp or away on a trip and your gun got wet or something happened and you had to clean your gun? Sooner or later it happens to all of us. You should know where that first shot goes with that load, or you will have to fire a fouling shot, which sometimes would be detrimental to your hunt.