Bullet Casting
11-22-2008, 04:02 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Bullet Casting
Ok, so it looks like I am going to try this.
Wife still thinks I am going to ruin our childs brain with all the lead fumes.
But anyway, I was reading alot about it, and if I use wheel wieghts or lead from any source I can find, it is easy to clean out the garbage? Is it easy to flux and to add tin? For instance, I see you flux or add something to get garbage to float to the top. Then I suppose I add my tin to make my hardness I want. But tin also will go to the top. Do I just mix it good?
Wife still thinks I am going to ruin our childs brain with all the lead fumes.
But anyway, I was reading alot about it, and if I use wheel wieghts or lead from any source I can find, it is easy to clean out the garbage? Is it easy to flux and to add tin? For instance, I see you flux or add something to get garbage to float to the top. Then I suppose I add my tin to make my hardness I want. But tin also will go to the top. Do I just mix it good?
11-22-2008, 07:42 PM
#2
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2
RE: Bullet Casting
Steps to casting:
Wheel weights make fine bullets for most applications. Issues with cast bullets center mainly around hardness. Wheel weights have some antimony added for hardness. Reason for hardness is to be able to drive the bullet at faster speeds. Softer bullets will leave lead deposits in barrel. If you are shooting at 9mm or less velocity soft leading in the barrelis not usually a problem. DO NOT try to use old car batteries, main problem is that the lead has arsenic added for hardness.Also problems with getting rid of acid and getting the tough case apart.
DO NOT add pieces of lead that has ANY moisture on it to already melted lead. Water will turn instantly to steam and cause an explosion of melted lead with possible burns to skin and eyes. Wear eye protection anyway. It is all right to put damp lead in cold pot to start with, as the gradual heating will dry out the lead long before it melts.
Have some type of lead pot. I used an iron frying pan at first, but recommend and electric pot such as the Lee. Read instructions. After lead is melted stir in some wax which will give off fumes which you light with a match. This is called fluxing and helps bring the waste to the top. You should get a kitchen table spoon for this(not wife's kitchenware, get your own). Use spoon to scoop off dross( waste material, dirt, etc) which will float to the top. Everything is lighter than lead so all will float. In the case the wheel weights, you can scoop off the steel clips first, before any fluxing.
When lead looks clean you can start casting.
For the best speed for the money I recommend a 2 cavity mold, but use what you have. The first 2 or 3 bullets should be put aside to be remelted since the mould will cast misshapen bullets until it warms up. Have a wooden stick to knock open the mould latch and a cloth pad to drop the bullets on. A way to get additional hardness is to quench the bullets immediately in water. It takes only a few seconds for the bullets in the mould to cool enough to be dropped from the mould.
Reccommend you the Lyman cast bullet handbook, but the lyman reloading manual has a section on bullet casting.
I would do all this in a well ventilated place, preferably out side with a slight breeze to carry the fumes away. Don't let anyone distract you while working.
Shooting bullets in rifles at higher velocities: You need gas check bullets. Gas checks are little copper cups of the appropriate caliber which allow the bullet to be fired fast without leading the barrel. There is an upper limit to how fast lead bullets can be driven. They found this out after smokless powder was invented. As the bullet is fired faster, it starts to melt and lose accuracy. About 2000 fps, IMO and IME, is the upper limit for reasonable accuracy. If it is fired fast enough it melts in the air and you see a line of blue smoke, thus the expression from earlier days "going like a blue streak". Accuracy is better around 1500 fps and I was told that best accuracy was about 1300 fps.
Waste that you scoop out has small amounts of lead in it and probably is supposed to be disposed of in some certain way. Considering the amount of more dangerous stuff that is put in land fills and the fact that the greedy land fill companies are ever anxious to put the things near settled areas and streams that supply water to someone downstream, I don't see why putting this minute amount of stuff out for garbage pick up wouldn 't be ok, but I'll probably get flamed for that. In this area their is adequate recycling provision anyway.
Have fun.
Haynk
Wheel weights make fine bullets for most applications. Issues with cast bullets center mainly around hardness. Wheel weights have some antimony added for hardness. Reason for hardness is to be able to drive the bullet at faster speeds. Softer bullets will leave lead deposits in barrel. If you are shooting at 9mm or less velocity soft leading in the barrelis not usually a problem. DO NOT try to use old car batteries, main problem is that the lead has arsenic added for hardness.Also problems with getting rid of acid and getting the tough case apart.
DO NOT add pieces of lead that has ANY moisture on it to already melted lead. Water will turn instantly to steam and cause an explosion of melted lead with possible burns to skin and eyes. Wear eye protection anyway. It is all right to put damp lead in cold pot to start with, as the gradual heating will dry out the lead long before it melts.
Have some type of lead pot. I used an iron frying pan at first, but recommend and electric pot such as the Lee. Read instructions. After lead is melted stir in some wax which will give off fumes which you light with a match. This is called fluxing and helps bring the waste to the top. You should get a kitchen table spoon for this(not wife's kitchenware, get your own). Use spoon to scoop off dross( waste material, dirt, etc) which will float to the top. Everything is lighter than lead so all will float. In the case the wheel weights, you can scoop off the steel clips first, before any fluxing.
When lead looks clean you can start casting.
For the best speed for the money I recommend a 2 cavity mold, but use what you have. The first 2 or 3 bullets should be put aside to be remelted since the mould will cast misshapen bullets until it warms up. Have a wooden stick to knock open the mould latch and a cloth pad to drop the bullets on. A way to get additional hardness is to quench the bullets immediately in water. It takes only a few seconds for the bullets in the mould to cool enough to be dropped from the mould.
Reccommend you the Lyman cast bullet handbook, but the lyman reloading manual has a section on bullet casting.
I would do all this in a well ventilated place, preferably out side with a slight breeze to carry the fumes away. Don't let anyone distract you while working.
Shooting bullets in rifles at higher velocities: You need gas check bullets. Gas checks are little copper cups of the appropriate caliber which allow the bullet to be fired fast without leading the barrel. There is an upper limit to how fast lead bullets can be driven. They found this out after smokless powder was invented. As the bullet is fired faster, it starts to melt and lose accuracy. About 2000 fps, IMO and IME, is the upper limit for reasonable accuracy. If it is fired fast enough it melts in the air and you see a line of blue smoke, thus the expression from earlier days "going like a blue streak". Accuracy is better around 1500 fps and I was told that best accuracy was about 1300 fps.
Waste that you scoop out has small amounts of lead in it and probably is supposed to be disposed of in some certain way. Considering the amount of more dangerous stuff that is put in land fills and the fact that the greedy land fill companies are ever anxious to put the things near settled areas and streams that supply water to someone downstream, I don't see why putting this minute amount of stuff out for garbage pick up wouldn 't be ok, but I'll probably get flamed for that. In this area their is adequate recycling provision anyway.
Have fun.
Haynk
11-22-2008, 09:01 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
RE: Bullet Casting
You control your alloy by the temperature of your "Melt".
When you put your WW into your pot your lead will melt before everything else. I use a cast iron ladle with holes in it to skim off "Everything", except the melted lead. The "Melt" will not reach temperature fast enough to melt Zinc, and such if you skim your "Melt" as soon as the lead is melted. Then I immediately flux the WW(twice). I then skim the "black stuff", or junk off the WW and pour it into ingots. This is not the time to mix in tin(if you are going to mix in any tin). Continue to clean all your WW, until done.
If I am making a mix of WW and pure lead, or WW and tin I do it in a separate step. And in a separate "Clean" pot. To have the tin combine to make your alloy you just need to heat your alloy a little hotter so that the tin will go into solution. After I am sure my tin has mixed into the alloy I pour ingots again. This is your final product.
I do one final fluxing, but not until I am ready to pour bullets from my "casting pot". Yes I know I have already mentioned 3 pots. However I have 7 or 8 pots. You really need a few pots if you want to do the job properly. However my "Smelting" pot will hold about 60 pounds of lead, and I smelt with a turkey fryer. You can do it is smaller batches, just buy a couple of different cast iron pots. Just make sure the pot is large enough to hold a full "Mix". of WW, tin, and any additional metals you wish to add. That way when you poor your final ingots you have a proper mix, and can add 1 or 2 ingots at a time to your "Casting Pot".
For fluxing I use Marvelux or Bees wax. A lot of people use saw dust. however I do not like the fire you can get. The Marvelux works great and it is not that expensive, and a little goes a long way. Tom.
When you put your WW into your pot your lead will melt before everything else. I use a cast iron ladle with holes in it to skim off "Everything", except the melted lead. The "Melt" will not reach temperature fast enough to melt Zinc, and such if you skim your "Melt" as soon as the lead is melted. Then I immediately flux the WW(twice). I then skim the "black stuff", or junk off the WW and pour it into ingots. This is not the time to mix in tin(if you are going to mix in any tin). Continue to clean all your WW, until done.
If I am making a mix of WW and pure lead, or WW and tin I do it in a separate step. And in a separate "Clean" pot. To have the tin combine to make your alloy you just need to heat your alloy a little hotter so that the tin will go into solution. After I am sure my tin has mixed into the alloy I pour ingots again. This is your final product.
I do one final fluxing, but not until I am ready to pour bullets from my "casting pot". Yes I know I have already mentioned 3 pots. However I have 7 or 8 pots. You really need a few pots if you want to do the job properly. However my "Smelting" pot will hold about 60 pounds of lead, and I smelt with a turkey fryer. You can do it is smaller batches, just buy a couple of different cast iron pots. Just make sure the pot is large enough to hold a full "Mix". of WW, tin, and any additional metals you wish to add. That way when you poor your final ingots you have a proper mix, and can add 1 or 2 ingots at a time to your "Casting Pot".
For fluxing I use Marvelux or Bees wax. A lot of people use saw dust. however I do not like the fire you can get. The Marvelux works great and it is not that expensive, and a little goes a long way. Tom.
11-23-2008, 01:32 PM
#5
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2
RE: Bullet Casting
Bigcountry,
This was my first post on this forum and did not find login steps this AM, looked at it better this PM.
Not familiar with commercial flux so have no opinion on it. I have access to beeswax and candlewax with beeswax in it so have used that.
As yet have not added tin to lead so refer you to HEAD0001s answer. Since you mentioned adding tin I assume you are going to shoot cast bullets in rifles. I'm curious as to how much faster you can drive a hard tin alloy bullet over bullets made from scrap lead.
Another source of scrap lead is bullets from fireing range backstops. The lead in jacketed bullets such as the 45 ACP is soft. You have to scoop the jackets out. Add to scrap brass pile and sell to junk yard, which probably will take your dross with lead in it.
Inspect bullets after casting and reject those with the sprue hold off center, with obvious cavities, or misshapen. If you get extremely serious you can weigh bullets and group within weight ranges.
My theory on rifle bullets is that since the velocity is going to be reduced anyway, use heavier bullets so as to be more effective if used on game. Paper targets don't care. An interesting test of cast bullets is to try penetration on steel. A 30 caliber has no problem penetrating 1/4 inch steel, probably will penetrate 3/8 inch. For comparison, 30-06 regular bullets will penetrate 1/2 inch mild steel, AP bullets will penetrate 1/2 inch armor plate, which is hard steel something like vehicle springs.
haynk
This was my first post on this forum and did not find login steps this AM, looked at it better this PM.
Not familiar with commercial flux so have no opinion on it. I have access to beeswax and candlewax with beeswax in it so have used that.
As yet have not added tin to lead so refer you to HEAD0001s answer. Since you mentioned adding tin I assume you are going to shoot cast bullets in rifles. I'm curious as to how much faster you can drive a hard tin alloy bullet over bullets made from scrap lead.
Another source of scrap lead is bullets from fireing range backstops. The lead in jacketed bullets such as the 45 ACP is soft. You have to scoop the jackets out. Add to scrap brass pile and sell to junk yard, which probably will take your dross with lead in it.
Inspect bullets after casting and reject those with the sprue hold off center, with obvious cavities, or misshapen. If you get extremely serious you can weigh bullets and group within weight ranges.
My theory on rifle bullets is that since the velocity is going to be reduced anyway, use heavier bullets so as to be more effective if used on game. Paper targets don't care. An interesting test of cast bullets is to try penetration on steel. A 30 caliber has no problem penetrating 1/4 inch steel, probably will penetrate 3/8 inch. For comparison, 30-06 regular bullets will penetrate 1/2 inch mild steel, AP bullets will penetrate 1/2 inch armor plate, which is hard steel something like vehicle springs.
haynk
11-23-2008, 02:01 PM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: Bullet Casting
ORIGINAL: bigcountry
Ok, so it looks like I am going to try this.
Wife still thinks I am going to ruin our childs brain with all the lead fumes.
But anyway, I was reading alot about it, and if I use wheel wieghts or lead from any source I can find, it is easy to clean out the garbage? Is it easy to flux and to add tin? For instance, I see you flux or add something to get garbage to float to the top. Then I suppose I add my tin to make my hardness I want. But tin also will go to the top. Do I just mix it good?
Ok, so it looks like I am going to try this.
Wife still thinks I am going to ruin our childs brain with all the lead fumes.
But anyway, I was reading alot about it, and if I use wheel wieghts or lead from any source I can find, it is easy to clean out the garbage? Is it easy to flux and to add tin? For instance, I see you flux or add something to get garbage to float to the top. Then I suppose I add my tin to make my hardness I want. But tin also will go to the top. Do I just mix it good?
To be able to be heat-hardened, an alloy must containtin, antimony and a trace of arsenic in addition to the lead. Wheelweights generally have all three already correctly alloyed. A bullet made from this stuff can be heat treated to be even harder than linotype metal!
I have fired heat-treated bullets at jacketed bullet velocities with good accuracy and no leading.
I recommend that you do your casting in a well-ventilated room, or even outside if ti is warm enough!
When cleaning the melt, I use a piece of candle wax about the size of a pea. Drop it into the melted lead, then stir well. I light a match and burn off the fumes resulting from fluxing. Be careful after fluxing, so as not to skim off the shiney metal that may float up after cleaning out the black crap-that's tin, and you want it to stay! Flux after casting every 50 or so bullets, to keep the alloy uniform for a casting session.
11-23-2008, 04:32 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Bullet Casting
Holy cow, I consider myself an advanced experienced reloader. And never knew casting was an entirely different discipline. I have been reading lymans quite a bit. I guess I need to quit reading about it so much and try it. I have to wait to get my gear. Instead of handloading where you can read and plan. This looks to be a technique that one has to do and see.
11-23-2008, 04:42 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
RE: Bullet Casting
Tin(Sn) is not for making your alloy harder. Antimony is what makes your alloy harder. Tin is for better mold "fill out".
It would be difficult to push a 45-70 or a 44 magnum fast enough to cause any leading problem. Straight WW(not water quenched) is plenty hard enough. If I were you I would try to pour my bullets with out any tin to start with. I do not add any tin to my WW, and the bullets come out just fine. I can push them up to 1800fps in my 45-70(and that is too fast) without any leading problems.
The trick to good casting is consistency(just like anything else). Just develop a good cadence and stick to it. I am sure you will do just fine. You will be surprised how fast you will be turning out great bullets. Tom.
It would be difficult to push a 45-70 or a 44 magnum fast enough to cause any leading problem. Straight WW(not water quenched) is plenty hard enough. If I were you I would try to pour my bullets with out any tin to start with. I do not add any tin to my WW, and the bullets come out just fine. I can push them up to 1800fps in my 45-70(and that is too fast) without any leading problems.
The trick to good casting is consistency(just like anything else). Just develop a good cadence and stick to it. I am sure you will do just fine. You will be surprised how fast you will be turning out great bullets. Tom.
11-23-2008, 05:23 PM
#10
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 493
RE: Bullet Casting
bigcountry, Beartooth Bullets offers a booklet on cast bullets that is a wealth of information, as in how to make them shoot, believe me Marshal Stanton knows what he's talking about.
I'm shooting his bullets and followed his advice on diaimeter and a few other tricks and now I'm getting 1" and better 100yd groups. I was hopeing for 3" but this 1895 has far exceded that.
I'm hopeing to get started casting soon ,I have over 800 lbs of pure lead and another 5 gal bucket of wheel weights, also just picked up a Lyman casting pot at a yard sale for next to nothing.
If you're interested in that booklet I'll post you their ph# the email is www.beartoothbullets.com. I have been having problems getting on their site lately but that may be fixed now.
I'm shooting his bullets and followed his advice on diaimeter and a few other tricks and now I'm getting 1" and better 100yd groups. I was hopeing for 3" but this 1895 has far exceded that.
I'm hopeing to get started casting soon ,I have over 800 lbs of pure lead and another 5 gal bucket of wheel weights, also just picked up a Lyman casting pot at a yard sale for next to nothing.
If you're interested in that booklet I'll post you their ph# the email is www.beartoothbullets.com. I have been having problems getting on their site lately but that may be fixed now.