Gas-checks
 

I've been looking at hard cast bullets for my heavy +P 45 Colt loads and noticed that some of the bullets have gas-checks and some don't. What are the advantages of gas-checks, and should I be looking for bullets with or without them for my heavy loads?

RE: Gas-checks
 

Less leading per higher velocity......

Only way to fly...IMHO.

RE: Gas-checks
 

I've cast, loaded and shot thousands and thousands of cast bullets in my 44 mags... You just don't need a gas checked bullet in 44 or 45 cal., as long as the bullets are cast out of hard enough lead alloy so it doesn't lead the bbl...

Iwon a lot of long range pistol matches withthe same load and bullet that i "still" use to this day to hunt with...never needing a GC for any of my 44 mag. loads...

The mould is a RCBS 44-250KT.

DM

RE: Gas-checks
 

If you tweak your mix you'll maybeget "hard enough" to reduce HV leading.

Doubt that commercial hard cast can be guaranteed "hard enough" across the board, thus a gas checked slug would be a good idea, if onlyas cheapinsurance....

Whyo didn't mentionpourin' his own.......

RE: Gas-checks
 

Leading in a barrel from cast bullets can be caused by several different things.

IMO a good lube is more important than how "hard" your lead is. The longer your barrel is, the harder your lube should be.

I normally cast straight WW in pistol calibers(even in pistol caliber rifles). Including your 45. I am assuming by heavy loads you mean a 300 grain bullet??

A clean barrel to start with is very important. It is also a bad idea to shoot both cast and jacketed bullet in the same rifle.

I only use a GC on bullets going over 1800 fps. I doubt if you are going to push a 45 Colt bullet that fast.

I can shoot straight WW from 1600 to 1800 fps without leading problems.

IMO the GC's are important if you are shooting a fast hot powder and you do not want to have bullet base deformity. But I normally shoot a slower powder and try to achieve case fill, instead of being cheap and shooting too fast of a powder.

GC'sIMO are more for base deformity(which causes leading) problems or issuse. Good velocities are easily obtainable without them.

Another question is what do you consider "Hard"?? What alloy are you using?? Are you water quenchiing, or heat treating your bullets??

I have experimented a good bit with different alloys, and I keep going back to straight WW. But then I like to keep things simple. The only bullets I GC are for my 30 calibers. I did GC some 35 caliber bullets for my 358 Winchester, but I no longer GC them(not needed). Tom.

RE: Gas-checks
 

Just buy the GC'd ones, run 'em hard, and don't look back.........

RE: Gas-checks
 

Only place you need GC is maybe in a 44mag marlin rifle or a 45-70, 444, or 450. And only if your going to push them to 1900-2200fps.

Most pistol calibers its a waste IMO if your velocity is under 1500fps. I need them in my 460smith. I get serious leading past 1800fps and 325gr bullet. I know if its me, I wouldn't bother for a 45colt even +P loads.

RE: Gas-checks
 

My experience indicates that Big Country is correct. To reduce/prevent leading, you need a combination of two things: Good lubrication for the bullet, and a bullet that is big enough in diameter that powder gases cannot blow by it as it travels down the bore.

If gas blows past the bullet base, it tends to melt the base and sides of the bullet, depositing moltenlead behind it on the surfaces of the bore. In addition, any damage to the bullet base has a serious detrimental effect on accuracy!

I have fired PURE LEAD cast bullets (Lyman 457122HP) in my Ruger No. 1 .45/70 up to 1350 FPS usingboth smokeless powder and black powder, with no leading. The bullets were .001" over groove diameter, and the ONLY lube I used with them was a greased WonderWad (a muzzleloading component) on top of the powder charge. These loads proved very accurate, and even the BP load left very little fouling in the bore. (65 grains of Swiss FFg; 43 grains of IMR 4064.)

In addition, I once loaded up some .375 H&H cases with 60 grains of H4831 and Lyman .375449 gascheck bullets lubed with NRA-formula ALOX lube. MV was right at 2000 FPS, and there was NO LEADING. Accuracy was good. These bullets were cast of straight unheat-treated wheelweight metal at Brinell 9.

RE: Gas-checks
 

You only need harder lead if you want to push bullets past 2000 fps. I shoot W/Ws as cast up to 1800fps (most of my rifle loads fall between 1400-1700fps for which I've never had leading problems even with rifle bullets designed to ake gas check without gaschecks installed- crimped on hornady gas checks do giv more accurate loads, Idon't like the lyman checks, I'm afriad they might fall off the bulelt and obstruct the bore.

Most commercial casters make pistol bullets that are way to hard and undersized. Undersized+ too hard means the bullets won't obturate and you get horrible leading. My experience with 9mm commercial cast bullets involved scrubbing alot of lead out of the barrel- never had that problem with my soft lead home cast bullets.

If you are worried about leading, cast the bullets as big as you can get them that will still allow chambering out of soft lead, use a lube that is of the right consistancy for the velocity (lubes put on commercial bullets are often too hard- they do this on purpose so that you have pretty bullets when you get them home and open the box, but oter than that it does you very little favors) 50/50 beeswax/alox lube will take care of 99% of your shooting needs unless you are shooting BPCR. I wouldn't bother with gas checks on a handgun.

RE: Gas-checks
 

Whyo has yet to state if he's casting or not, 'till then I'll take his post literally and guess he's talking commercial, as not one word was typed in reference to a "mold"....nor was he talking about rifle loads, gas checked or not.

Humorous how one mans simple question on one subjectbecomes other's pontifications from high atop a stump, about another......

Mmm...maybe 'cause it's a better seal and leads less??

Wewouldn't want that in .45LC +P loadswould we......


So a GC on those 9mm bullets to fend a poor seal wouldn't have helped.....interesting. Whyo WAS talking about "hard cast", which is typically quite, how would you put it.....HARD.

I run hard cast GC'd in my LC to facilitate maximum penetration via maximum velocityfor which the bullets purpose denotes....which is likely bustin' through a lot of bone structure before it reaches anything gooey should the need for a sidearm arise. For such needs I'd not even consider soft lead....and I'm guessin' Whyo wouldn't either.

Now that right there is some funny stuff. Anyone with a lick of casting sense knows a slugged barrelyields barrel dimensions, andcasting + minimal sizing to groove dimensionssports least leading and best accuracy.....

BS.........

Nope, neither would I now that the Experts have spoken.......

RE: Gas-checks
 

Gas Checks then, areout of the question, despite being designed to neutralize that issue...

Laffin'.......

RE: Gas-checks
 

To answer the thing that lives under a bridge...


Has nothing to do with leading but more to do with making a nice square base- the same thing you get with pistol bullets without gaschecks.

Nope, gaschecks would simply treating a symptom and not the disease. Too hard = leading.

Something as hard as W/Ws is plenty hard to bust bones, and it will expand a bit to boot.

That's what the books might say, but experience is otherwise.

RE: Gas-checks
 

grin grin:D

wow, I know another poster on other forums several years agoI used to talk too that used to always use these little things like "laffin and grin". Stick might think your a little disciple if you keep trying to be him. grin...

RE: Gas-checks
 

I know Stick, and everyone else who uses the same stuff, in similar fashion....you were invited over to hang out but declined, as I recall. Grinnin' and laffin' is just part of Life, it's a shame you take yourself too seriously tolaugh and grin. 'Course you do put those stupidlittle sideways "smiles" and "laughs" at the end of something, that were sooooo cute and original.....if you are a third grader.

Didn't you "say" somethingto me in another post about adding anything of value to the discussion? Wonderin' here what my writing style, or how close it is to someone else's, has to do with Gas Checked lead bullets. Seems your only defense at times like these is to just be a complete jerk off topic.............(pun there, if you can see it).

(Stick uses lots of dots too........and puns, just like I do)

Laffin'........

RE: Gas-checks
 

Briman....

Am glad here that I don't live in your world or walk your path...

Good luck with that........

RE: Gas-checks
 

Gaschecks are hard. They don't expand on firing, so an undersize gascheck bullet is as bad as one made with a plain base when it comes to leading. The name "gascheck" was given to these little slivers of copper more in the hope that they would prevent gas blowing past the bullet than from their actual performance along this line! A Wonder Wad or fiber disc wad on top of the powder does just as good a job at this function, or better!

I am talking about what has worked well for me. If it doesn't work for YOU,shin loi!!

RE: Gas-checks
 

Slugging a barrel and sizing accordingly yeilds a correct GC fit.

Good seal, good velocity, good accuracy,less leading...all frosting on the cake.

'Tis a no brainer.............

RE: Gas-checks
 

Well, you got respect larry. He has always done that stuff on any website he has been too. I never really like the foul language but he always did his own thing. He never really follows one's lead. But there has always been little following that would always try to emulate him. Sorry to hijack this thread, I just thought it was rather comical how good you play follow the leader.

I wouldn't mind posting over there, but it appears no one really cares about white-tail,moose, andboar and most important archery but just blacktail, and bears. I hunt neither. And its really slow over there. What is there, 10 posts a week?

Ok, back on about gas checks. Glad to see you contribute the first time, it was refreshing and new to see you try to help. Hopefully that trend will continue instead of the usual smug jerk NYer.

RE: Gas-checks
 

Hailing from MD ain't much of a stroke either, but you keep believing what you want to about Upstate, as that's the way we want it....it keeps the riff raff out.

Laffin'...........

RE: Gas-checks
 

Ain't that the truth. Totally different people than where I hail from Eastern Ky.

RE: Gas-checks
 

To the thing that lives under the bridge: at least you are contibuting to this thread in one way- proving that arrogance =ignorance.

If you slug the throat and use a bullet that fills the throat as much as possibleregardless of what the rest of the barrel looks like, you'll be way ahead of the curve. A gascheck isn't goingto prevent leading if yor bullet is grossly undersized in the throat but is 'perfectly-sized' for the grooves in the barrel.

RE: Gas-checks
 

If we are stilltalking .45LC +P'ish stuff...then likely we are talking forcing cones, not chamber throats.

But you probably already knew that................

RE: Gas-checks
 

I am not sure who the expert is here. But I do know that Slugging a barrel and sizing a bullet has nothing to do with the fit of GC's?? You seat(or fit) the GC before you size your bullet. Or at least while you are sizing your bullet. A lot of shooters use a GC and do not even size their bullet.

I would have thought the author was working with a rifle instead of a pistol. There is no need what so ever with a GC at pistol velocities, so common sense would tell me that the author was either speaking about a rifle, or was just looking for general information?? But then what would I know, I am just a dummy from WV, and know nothing about "STICK". But I do know a bit about casting and shooting. Which I believe is far more than RL. But then I always get a "KICK"(or should I say Laffin'........)out of comments that some one writes about a subject-when they obviously have not done what they are talking about. I do not doubt that you have used GC'd bullets, but your non-GC'd bullet comments are way off base.

If you want to pay the extra money for the GC bullets then go ahead and buy them. But if you are talking about pistol loads, they truly are not necessary.

Now for my third grade comment. Tom.

RE: Gas-checks
 

Slugging a barrel yeilds a measurementof diameter across the grooves, yes or no?

Obtaining a sizer/luber die that best represents the adequate fit per that dimension AND casting for a minimal required amount ofsizingsans excessive swaging of the bullet yeilds best fit/best accuracy upon sizing through said sizer/luber. Common sense dictates that the least amount of sizing yields best accuracy, yes?

Last I checked the CG's going through my sizer/luber went through the same die that the bullet goes through....thus yeilding same/samebest fit per bore dimensions.

No?

Ordo they magically stay bigger or something?

Gas checks in hot hardcast45LC loads are simple insurance against many evils......

RE: Gas-checks
 

Now who is assuming that the poster is casting their own bullets, instead of buying their bullets?? You need to make up your mind before you flame some one else!!

You also need to know that it is easy to "fit" your GC's to a bullet without sizing them. That is how I seat them on my 200 grain bullets for my 358 Winchester. I just set the GC on a flat surface on push the bullet into the crimp on GC. This bullet drops exactly where I want it. So when I run the bullet through the sizer, all I am doing is lubing the bullet(not sizing).

You also need to realize that there are alot of casters out there that do not even size their bullets. And there are also a lot of custom molds out there that drop a certain alloy at the proper diameter that a shooter wants so that he does not have to size his bullets.

"Diameter across the grooves"??I think I actually gave you more credit than you deserve. I know that "Diameter across the grooves" is definitely not the measurement I am looking for when I slug a barrel. I think I will go over to the Cast Boolit web site and tell them I size my bullets by the "Diameter across the grooves". I am sure those guys will get a Laffin'......... out of that. Have you ever slugged a barrel?? By your comments-I sort of doubt it. Tom.

RE: Gas-checks
 

Merely entertaining YOUR argument.....

So then, you measure across the lands?

That must make for some really good accuracy, and one heck of a good seal. Why even bother with rifling if that be the case?

I don't care what credit YOU give me but it don't take a genious to know the widest portion of a bore diameter is from groove to groove, not land to land......

Too funny.......

Oh I get it, in your vast knowitallitude you assume I'm talking about measuring across the actual grooveson the actual slug, which represent the lands in the bore, in negitive image....

No Einstien, I'm talking about measuring the high spots of the slug which represents the grooves in the bore.....said, "measure across the grooves", by me, earlier.

Still too funny.........

RE: Gas-checks
 

Slugging a bore does indeed give you land & groove diameters. But when we are talking revolvers, another significant diameter- (BTW, revolver chambers do indeed have throats-at least some do-which are smaller in diameter than the chamber proper)-is the throat diameter which determines the diameter of the bullet as it enters the bore from the cylinder. The closer this throat diameter is to being no more than .002"-.003 over groove, the more accurate that revolver will be. If this throat is too small, gas will blow by the bullet as it enters the bore. If too large, the bullet will swage up in size then be smashed down again while entering the bore. Either of these occurrences will damage the bullet. Such damage often causes the bullet to travel erratically after leaving the gun. I learned this the hard way, from a Colt New Frontier .45 Colt that would not shoot for sour apples. I discovered it had a .451" groove and a .457" chamber throating.....

RE: Gas-checks
 

By your own admission you were talking about rifles, now you want to talk pistols....

Make up my mind, please.........

RE: Gas-checks
 

I appreciate the replies. I thought about posting earlier to clear up a few things, but I think I learned a lot more by being vaque with my initial post then letting this thread run its course. I'm buying factory bullets rather than casting my own, and I'll be shooting them in a revolver rather than a rifle. So you guys already gave me the answer I was looking for, and luckily the answer will be saving me money. Thanks!

RE: Gas-checks
 

"and I'll be shooting them in a revolver rather than a rifle."

Somehow, I got the idea wewere talking about handgun bullets......