Forming new brass question. UPDATE!!!page3
 

I’m going to try using new brass in my 25-06. How do you go about it for your rifles? I’m using a lee collet die set; neck sizing only and I want to fire form to my chamber. I have heard to fire form with the bullet 20thousanths, touching, and 10-20thousanths jam into the lands. I know I’ll need a reduced (starting or milder) charge if touching or into the lands. Opinions and experiences please? Also do you turn the out side of the necks and if so what equipment do you use? I have started thinking about turning mine.

mello

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

Mello.......Unless I'm missing something here, which is possible, I've never had any problems switching from worn brass to new brass. I run the new brass thru the resizer die, check trim length, load as normal and fire away.

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

Ridge,
My fingers can't type. I ment 25-06. Sorry for the typo.

mello

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

I guess everybody has overlooked the obvious-1st time sizing-full length resize new brass!!!!!!

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

I used to neck turn, but won't anymore. I use a sinclair Intl neck turning kit. If you do neck turn, you really should anneal after, and you also need a neck thicknessgauge. I only take the neck down to .014" neck thickness min. Any more than that, you might not be able to hold a bullet.

Also recommend getting a FL sizer for your purpose of new brass.

I have tried all kinds of techniques for fire forming but its a pain in the butt. From cotton stuff in with bullseye powder to filling the case with all kinds of other stuff. I won't do it anymore. I will just shoot.

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

bigcountry,

If I do turn it will only be from the outside to even it up a little (read as scuff off the high spots if any). It probably is not needed in my case though. I guess I need to pick up a FL die. I'm going to be using win brass and I have readall kinds of weird combos like what you stated. Any experience with seating depths for fire forming. I only want to neck size after and will toss after five reloads or so for safety.

mello

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

I would like to have a dime for every different fire forming method I have heard.

Ridge Runner and PA Wildman have it right(IMO). I am not sure about the recommendations about having to FL size new brass. I have shot a lot of new brass by just bumping down the neck(and making it concentric) with the expander ball out of the die. Then running a Sinclair sizing mandrel to open up the neck. I recommend this system, but I will admit thatthis iswhat I do to all my rifles, and I do not load my rifles hot, so headspace is never a problem for me.

Unless you are running a tight chamber the outside turning is not a necessity. You will get the most brass flow with your first firing. If you feel the need to turn, then I would turn it after your first firing, but I would want to know my chamber dimensions first. Tom.

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

for fire forming new brass heres what I do its the easiest no brainer way:D for example Im gonna explain this with the use of 308 win just for examples sake

1. I full length size the brass, I feel you should always resize even new brass.

2. Trim brass to just under Maximum length, if the brass measures less then skip this step.

3. Then load as normally using a start charge of a selected load depending on your desired powder, primer and bullet. I use whatever extra powder or primers I have around and bullets Im not gonna use anymore or just a cheap package of winchester power points.

4. have a fun day of plinking, now you will have your fire formed brass ready for neck sizing.


IMO dont even bother with any other fire froming method they are just asmuch work if not more than throwing together some plinker loads. besides shooting blanks aint asmuch fun as sending some lead down range. you may even shoot at paper you never know you may just have an accurate plinker/fire forming load.

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

I agree with all of the above plus the fact that FL resized brass is going to chamber easily every time where there are potential problems with neck sized brass. FL size them for hunting.

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

I have used wax, and cream of wheat as a filler, with no bullet and cotton. Terribly nasty and pain in the rear. You can use bullseye and start at 5gr and see if its forming to your chamber using a head and shoulder gauge. If not, keep raising the bullseye. Be careful with bullseye however. You have to have a piece of fireformed brass to compare it to however and need some head gauges

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

I guess I should have added that I want to use the fire forming process during break in. Starting from scratch with a new barrel ya see. Trying to kill two birds with one stone. I just threw out all of my old brass and I have a shiny new bag of win brass (100 count) to load. I was kind of figuring on fire forming all at the same time and get the break in done as well. Am I just spinning my wheels?

mello

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

:D

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

Nice

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

If you want to follow any number of break-in procedures, fine, Seems like everyone has some of their own, and that's another story. Personally, I shoot a series of one shot, clean, 5 times. Three shots, clean, 5 times. Then on to 5-shot groups, clean. Maybe excessive but it's what I do. As far as fire-forming, as has been stated here before, if you have some unwanted bullets and a reasonable amount of a powder that did not shoot as you had hoped, use them for your fire-forming. I have not had trouble with new brass that I've run thru my resize die, checked for trim length, load as normal, and just go shoot them. Oftentimes, they shoot just as well as the older previous casings. Chamber dimensions can play a role here, but for most intents and purposes, it just isn't going to matter that much, if at all for your intent.

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

yep it happens , my 730 waters is like that . just neck down load and shoot a 3030 case like it was all readyfire formed case, saved a whole step

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

RR- I didn't laugh at the notion of a 1/4" group, I laughed at the huge understatement attached to it.;)

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

I would say that just shooting to fireform standard brass to a standard chamber is a bit of a waste of time. If it were me, I'd just FL size the new brass (although, all the new Winchester brass I've ever used never really needed it, it doesn't hurt to be sure), load them with your load workup and shoot them. If a particular load seems promising, refine it with the now fireformed brass. Once you've got the load dialed in, load up the remaining cases with that load and use them for practice or even hunting rounds, since accuracy is likely to be quite acceptable.

Why waste barrel life and components when the difference between the FL and neck sized brass isn't likely to be that great.

Mike

RE: Forming new brass question. UPDATE!!!
 

Previously I posted a question about fire forming brass. I wanted to minimize case stretching in the process, especially in the head region. I good explanation of what happens is detailed at the Hornady web site (good read). This is the load I ended up with.

Fire forming load for my 25-06 Ruger M77 Varmint
Hornady 117grn btsp .257 20 thousands into lands
cci 250 LRM primer
54.5grn Ramshot Magnum powder. starting load for safety

By seating the bullet into the lands I hoped to eliminate movement of the brass forward buy the firing pin.

Pic1 is of brass from my old barrel. The ring on the brass is large enough to be felt as well as seen. This is why it was sent back to Ruger. It actually left a micro ridge around the head region. I am unsure whether it was due to a slightly large chamber or slightly large headspace. I figured I would let them figure it out. Of note: when I cut open the brass no thinning was evident.

Pic2 is from the new barrel with factory ammo. Notice I still have a ring but no noticeable ridge. I have been told the shiny ring is from the brass stretch in that region.

Pic3 is from my fire form loads. NO ring is visible or measured!






Results: It worked. Of special consideration is brass length of the fire formed loads. In all previous loads (hand or factory) I have had to trim after the first firing. The brass length actually shrank in the forming load. From starting at 2.489 trimmed it ended up at any where from 2.487 to 2.480 with an average of 2.484. Factory round’s brass ended up at 2.492. This was a surprise to say the least and leads me to believe that the case formed to the chamber without positive stretching along its axis. I expect this to give me a better more consistent case with a longer life, but only time will tell.

mello

RE: Forming new brass question.
 

RR
I was/am counting on the magnum primer combined with having the bullet seated into the lands to drive up pressure. That combination should have significantly raised the peak pressure, especially the seating depth. Hopefully the raised pressure will still be with in specs by limiting the powder charge to the starting load. By seating into the lands I was trying to duplicate the effect of a tight chamber by limiting case movement forward as the primer was struck. Curiously my forming loads were also fairly accurate. I was only firing at 25 yards but I still was getting 5 shot groups of 0.25 or less, plenty enough for hunting. I will still have to see what they do at 100 to tell. I left the range when several young men showed up with sks’s and their brass was literally flying from bench to bench.

mello