RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

It is always fun to poke at each other on the forum. When I said what does that mean, it was in reference to your statement. Which was:"In the case of the encore, the gap is part of the headspace, so the fired brass from the encore will not necessarily be longer". It was this quote which I was calling incorrect, only because every encore has: 1. a different gap. 2. not all cartridges headspace off the shoulder. 3. Even some headspace off the belt.

This gap is the main reason why sizing die adjustment is so important. And why most expert's recommend adjusted full length sizing for Encore's, over neck sizing. You need to know the gap to do the proper die adjusment. I am pretty sure the shoulder is bumping the chamber on this fellow's rifle-hence the hard closing bolt.Tom.

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

Quite possibly,but the overall chamber length including the gap,are still within the same tolerance,since each barrel itself may be reamed to a slightly different depth.No rifle would be shipped if the headspace was not within tolerance.

The same applies with any other action type.They all have a gap between the cartridge head and the bolt,but because it is hidden,you can't see it like on the encore.

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

i had the same problem with the 308's i own. i ended up trimming the cases a little shorter so i can use them in both guns wiht out a problem. try trimming them down .002 more then what your book says. it wont interfear with the way they shoot.

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

It is not the same with a bolt action. Witha bolt action the headspaceis set when the barrel is installed. Thebolt is in theaction when the headspace is adjusted(to the boltface). This is one of the main reasons that a manufacturer will not sell you a new bolt. They want to set the headspace-not you. With anEncore the barrel is made separate of the action. The hinge pin is actually what set's the headspace. You can put the same barrel on three different actions andhave three different headspace measurement's, because the gap will definitely be different on each action. On my actions I have seen gap's between just under .002 to just over.004(checked by a feeler gauge).

Tolerance is not the issue. the issue is the actual length of the brass to the shoulder. If this reloader has a larger gap(in his Encore)then the brass will set back to the breech face before firing(probably why his bolt is tight on his other rifle-he is not bumping the shoulder enough).

The gap is why some reloader's have misfires. Theshell is against the breech face and the firing pin pushes the shell forward until the shoulder contacts the chambering, and by that time it doesnot have enough energy to set the primer off. This is why alot of barrelmaker's like the rimmed cases.With rimmed cases thecartridge can not be pushed forward.

On an Encore if you want to get it right you really must know the gap. If your brass is too long the action will not close(just like a tight bolt)-but a tight bolt will still fire. Where an unclosed Encore is useless. And if your brass is too short you can have misfires.

IMO the tolerance you are speaking of is the SAAMI tolerance in actual chamberings(reamer's). And you are correct, these can be different. Some chamber tight and some chamber loose, I agree with you on those tolerances. Tom.

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

i had a problem with my 243 when i started loading for it it is a ruger m77 when i full length size the brass the bolt closed hard so i reset the die so the shell holder touched to bottom of the die and you could feel the bolt handle cam over a little bit and i haven't had a problem since so you could try that

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

All right,

This puzzle seems to be coming together. I'm not sure if Tom's comment about mis-fires pertains to the .22-250 round, but I did have a mis-fire of one of my reloads in the encore. As I said, I had a bunch of mismatched brands of brass, without complete knowledge of which gun they were originally shot in. I attempted to full length re-size all of the brass. In retrospect, some of the lubed cases were going into the die so hard that I threw them out. This got me on the thought of non-uniform expansion within the encore. The other interesting thing about the encore barrel I noticed was that some factory rounds seem to fall right into the chamber all the way while some have a portion sticking out until the barrel is closed. This suprised me a little, since I would think that all factory rounds would be made to the same tolerances and should all seat identical in the chamber. All of you guys comments are noted and appreciated.

KEJ

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

The gap is not necessarily the headspace.The depth that the reamer is bored into the barrel is a big factor.If the reamer is bored deeper into the barrel when chambering,the headspace can be larger even with very small gap than if the chamber is not bored as deep,but the gap is larger.For that reason you can't judge headspace by the gap alone.Just because one barrel leaves a larger gap on a given receiver,does not mean that the headspace is larger than for another barrel fitted to the same receiver but with less gap.


If the headspace is out so much as to cause misfires,you are going to have much more serious problems like case head separation.

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

Obviously the gap is not the headspace. But the gap will change the headspace. Do you bother to read the whole post and try to comprehend. Or do you just take one line from a post and try to twist it to where you can make it look negative. You made a statement that was wrong-and now you are on the defense. A simple honest mistake is no big deal-I make several mistakes a day. It has taken me several years to fully understand the headspace problem's that break actions have-and these problems are unique to break actions only. I am still learning about the break actions.

And by the way you are 100% correct about case head separations. I have seen them happen onbrass that was sized down too far, and on2 particular chamber's that were cut too large.

If you are wondering where I think you are wrong-I will quote your entire comment

"Quite possibly,but the overall chamber length including the gap,are still within the same tolerance,since each barrel itself may be reamed to a slightly different depth.No rifle would be shipped if the headspace was not within tolerance."

Where you are wrong here is that the "RIFLE" is not shipped. The barrel is shipped. So therefore a different gapWILL make each headspace different on each different receiver. Open yourmind and read my whole post.

I have read alot of your comments on other posts. Your posts give the appearance of a truly knowledgeable person. I mean that as a compliment. All I am saying is the Encore is truly a differenttype of firearm. And Iwould bet money thatthe fellow shooting the rifle that started this post has his shoulder bumping the chamber of his bolt action after he shot it in his Encore. Hence the tight bolt.

And to ChazyKEJ-I apologize for hijacking your post. Tom.

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

Can the encore not be purchased as a whole rifle where you live.I have seen them advertised as such,In that case the "RIFLE" is indeed shipped.

Obviously you did not comprehend part of my previous post.The headspace is determined by the combination of the depth of the chamber made by the chamber reamer,and by the width of the gap.Just as gaps vary,so does the depth that the chamber reamer is bored into the barrel.A wider gap will not result in a larger headspace if the chambering reamer is not bored as deeply into the barrel.A barrel can produce a lesser headspace even if it has a larger gap.Barrels will be installed on an action and then checked for headspace before being sold as a complete rifle.All other barrels will be fitted to an action to be tested for the proper headspace,before being sold as barrels only.

RE: Problems with sized brass from 2 different rifles
 

I will admit that some completed rifle's are shipped. However IMO I would guess that the majority of barrel's sold are without actions when they leave the factory. When you order a custom barrel you do not ship the receiver, the manufacturer merely chambers the cartridge to SAAMI specs. or to the buyer's spec's(tight normally).

I would be willing to bet that at TC the barrels are fitted to the receiver's at the end of production. And I would also bet that barrels are not adjusted when then are mated to the receiver. They can not be changed. The only way it can be adjusted is tofill and then redrill the hinge pin(I guess you could also grind off part of the barrel). The only option is to scrap the receiver or the barrel. It is not like a bolt where the barrel can be twisted in a bit more or less, or where the bolt face can be adjusted. I do not know how to adjust a bolt face-but I am assuming it can be done. Can it?

I do not believe the chamber reamer is adjusted at the TC factory. IMO all the barrels are standard. I do believe the custom manufacturers adjust the depth. I do not know if you have read what Mike Bellm has written about headspace and the Encore, but IMO it is a very good read. Tom.