Little tip to eliminate runout
 

After years of reloading, and fighting bullet runout, I think I have found the solution. I have bought competition seaters, neck turning kits, and multiple dies and different brands of shell holders. Some calibers, I fight runout every time, some not at all.

I have found the culprit in my setup. The shellholder. These shell holders are made with slop to accomidate many calibers. That slop is killing me. My usual setup for bullet seating includes squaring the dies, and turning 3 times during the bullet seat little at a time. I usually get 30% of the loaded rounds with runout >.005", which is unacceptable to me. When questioning loads or working up loads, why not take out another possible component I say.

Ok, I was watching my rim of the brass relative to its position in the shell holder. If I just lower my ram handle to touch the bullet seater plug with the bullet, and bounce back out, I notice the rim, of the brass moving over in the shell holder .005 or more from the end of the shell holder. So when I put brass in and shove it in the holder and push a bullet in, I am shoving it in cockeyed cause of play in the shell holder.

So here was my experiement. I loaded 20 7mm-08 rounds by doing the regular lay the bullet in the shell holder to its extent, and seating the bullet turning 1/3 turn 2 times during the seating.

I then loaded 20 7mm08 rounds a little different. I wouldraise my ram until I could feel the bullet hit the seater plug, I would thenlower my ram, and you could see the brass being centered in the shell holder by a very small amount, I would then push in the bullet a small amount. I would then turn the brass 1/3 turn, and touch the bullet to the plug, and back back out and would see the brass move over centering itself relative to the seater plug and then lower the handle all the way to finish the seating.

Results. 20 the old way had bullet runout ranging from .001" to .012". 30 to 40% had runout between .004 and .007". Thats enough to see the bullet wobble if you rolled it on a mirror.

20 loaded the new tedious way, I had 100% of the loads had runout less than .005". Which is justgreat for hunting. Over80% had runout less than .003". Which I consider almost match quality straightness.

So I can conclude that with that shell holder/press/bullet seater combo, there is some slop in the shell holder or press. Some rounds I never have issues, and notice when I load the new tedious way, the brass does not scoot over any at all in the shell holder when I touch the bullet to the seater plug and back out.

I know some on here are tired of reloading after years and years of doing it and this post is not for you. But those who like the dynamics of reloading and getting straight ammo, try it out for yourself. Some of my rifles, shoot great with bad runout or good. Some like my magnums do not like alot of runout.

There is alot more components to consider also. Like varying neck thickness, and FL sizers knocking the necks out. This can be checked before seating or charging. If your necks are out of center then nothing you can do, will help.

Just a tip.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Thanks for the tip, BC! As a newbie, I appreciate these tips from you more experienced folks.
I'm guessing no one makes caliber specific shell holders for various presses?


edited to add word: "these" 2 2nd sentence

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Here's another thought...I think you are definately heading down the right road.

The shellholders have slop in them, but not the 'right' kind of slop. If the shellholder isn't quite perfectly aligned with the ram below it, its going to force the brass into your sizing or seating die crooked.

Here's something I discovered by accident and much later read about it in Glen Zediker's "Reloading for Competition." I took my rockchucker press completely apart one day to clean all of the priming grit out of the ram and relube it. I broke the shellholder retaining spring in the process and never replaced it. I noticed when I put a shell in the holder and ran it into the sizing die, the shellholder will slide into a position that allows the brass to align with the die.

I read the same suggestion by Glen Zediker a few years later- he says to get rid of the shell holder retention spring as it can hold the shellholder in the wrong place and can put more pressure on one side of the holder than another, further exacerbating the problem. He reccommends buying a rubber O-ring to hold the shellholder in place because it allows plenty of play and is much more convenient than having to use a shellhold not held on to the ram with anything.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Thanks for the suggestion Briman. I will look into that. I have already replaced that spring on the suggestion of RCBS. So your option sounds appealing. Yea, my press is very nasty. Never been apart before.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

How much is the runout affecting your groups?

I haven't worried about it before, but if a makes a noticeable difference, I might start.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

As I say, some guns, like a 7mm08 I have, you can shoot rocks sideways thru it and get subMOA. But others like my 300RUM or ones with alot of freebore, it seems to affect it alot. I did alot of testing where I separated out my bad with my excellent. It made a different from going from .5MOA to 1.5MOA. Thats considerable.

I usually see it affect guys who say, "I found a great load was getting .5" groups at 100 yards the other day, but now, I am all other the place". I go over to thier ammo, and roll it, and watch it wobble like nobodies business. Is that the reason? Who knows, but I know when I take it out of the equation, its not a problem anymore.

I love reloading and learning new things. And love striving to make the best ammo I can. I know I am very particular. but its my hobby, and I love it.

I say for anyone who has been struggling to get loads working they shoot great one day and bad another, take a look at it.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

This probably sounds like a silly question to you but how do you accomplish measuring run out? If someone uses soft point bullets I can’t see getting an accurate measurement with a lead tip compared to a poly carbonate tip. Do you have a trick to this ?...:eek:

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Thanks. Will give it a try. I bought an old Lyman shell holder at a gun show many years ago. It has much less slop that the RCBS ones. In fact , some .308 and .30-06 rims will not fit into it. It is a Lyman 8X. It is used only for bullet seating. Much less runout with this old shell holder than with an RCBS.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I measure runout with a concentricity gauge. You put a round on it and roll it. But you measure runout not at the ogive, but more towards the neck about .1" or more above the neck.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Well that’s interesting, I thought you would measure just at the tip being that would be the most obvious place. How does one go about getting a concentricity gauge or were do look for one? Would you have a picture of one?...

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Here is the one I have. The tip would be great, but thats pretty tough to have .001" runout or less there.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/images/gold/full/09-150.jpg

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I’m going to look into it. Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated...:)

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I have tried all the methods mentioned on how to eliminate runnout,and they do help, but the technique of turnning and reamming casenecks along with thetechuiques mentioned in this thread have done the trick for me. Good luck.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

http://www.benchrest.com/hnh/

here's anotherpic.

Sometimes I hate reading this forum becauseyou guyskeeps pointing out new gadgets I didnt know I needed.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

That piece of equipment from H & H looks serious. Does anyone have one, how do you like it, and approx. price?
I never paid much attention to this before...only occasionally rolled a load across a counter top looking for eccentricity, but that was it.
Like Duckbutter said...................

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

The simplest and cheapest method I have found for reducing runout is sizing with the Lee collet neck die. Of course a good quality seater is necessary also and in that regard I use either the Redding Comp or Forster Benchrest. I suppose the Forster Co-Ax press should be given some of the credit also, but there's no question the Lee collet neck die deserves most of the credit. Before I bought my first one I was using Redding Type S bushing dies and runout was never to my liking. The Lee die changed that.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I dont have one(yet) just did a little search on them and found one different the BC's so I posted pic. I didnt find price on it. Looks like it wont be cheap.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

solitary, no doubt the lee collet creates straight brass. My brass is very straight, well my necks are very straight, but this problem is found assuming straight necks with a collet die.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Add my name to the list of those who have had amazing results with the $20 Lee Collet die. I have quite a few sets of benchrest dies - but I keep coming back to the Lee Collet for the last word in tight groups. They also are just the ticket for neck sizing the entire family of Ackley Improved calibers, since they have no real "body" taper to them and don't touch anything but the neck. I still use a Redding seat die as well as a Redding Body die to bump the shoulder back every three loadings.

I also use the Bigcountry technique for seating bullets. Slows things down quite a bit, but the results are quantifiable. One other thing I have done in the past to get real straight bullet seating is to use a shell holder one size bigger than the correct one for seating. I also turn the die down as close to the shell holder as possible without it actually making hard contact with the case. Quite a few presses have the center of the shell holder slot not perfectly aligned with the center of the die threads. And then there are variations with the actual shell holders and dies during the manufacturing process. Between the generous shellholer, the Lee Collet resizing, and the Bigcountry seating method; you get some pretty straight loaded rounds.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Roskoe, you mean you have known about this tip for years and not let me know?:D

You could have saved mealot of moneyin Redding benchrest dies and sinclair neck turning. Yours and brimans are good ones.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

This was something I kinda got forced into back in the 60's. My first set of dies were hand dies for the .303 British. One of the older sages in my home town offered me an upgrade - an ancient Lyman press for free - only problem was that it had a little alignment problem. Only way to seat bullets reasonably straight was to do it in about four steps; rotating the case each time about 1/4 turn.

On the oversize shellholder, I generally use a .308 shellholder for the 6MM PPC, and a .220 Swift shellholder for seating rounds with the .308/30/06 case head. They fit loose enough so the round is going to find the center of the seater die without any interference from the shellholder - but still hang onto the case just enough so it isn't going to fall out of the shellholder. Roskoe

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Like you and bc, I've been turning the casings during bullet seating for some time, but never thought about the oversize shellholder.....Thanks!!

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I have had good luck using the Sinclair mandrel to size the inside of the neck. I only shoot my rifles as a single shot, and I orient the brass in the chamber the same every time. I like my brass to "FREE FLOAT" in the shell holder while bumping down the neck, Then sizing the inside with the mandrel instead of the sizing die.

I do not have any precision reamed(or custom match)chambers on any of my rifles. And I doubt if any of my rifles have truly concentric and aligned chambers, and throats. I have found that if I allow the brass to "FREE FLOAT" in the shell holder, that it automatically aligns the bullet while I seat it. But I am pretty sure that you guys have better rifles, and can probably shoot better than I can. But this method has increased my accuracy. And basically that is my major concern.

If I ever get a true target rifle with a perfect match chamber I sure will try what you guys are talking about. Tom.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I did a little experimenting the other night I decided to use my lee classic cast as the lab rat incase I messed anything up anyway I removed the clip ring in the shell holder seat on the ram and eased a rubber o-ring over it into the groover that the little metal clip originally sat now the shell holder moves freely. I originally stopped using my classic cast because of the excessive run out i was experiencing that I blamed on the two piece ram. anyway long story short I loaded up some 308 rounds and the run out is now within .002" to .004" before it varied as much as .014"

guys get rid of those shell holder clips and replace it with a rubber O-ring. No need for any other remedies. good luck

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Head - are you using the tailstock of a lathe to neck the cases with the Sinclair setup?

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I am bringing this back from the archives because I had might have some problems with the way I am seating bullets.

Correct me please if I am screwing up....but when I seat my bullets I run the bullet up the die and hold the brass to the back of the shell holder with my finger. I run the brass up half way, spin it, and then run it up the rest of the way while holding the brass to the back of the shell holder. Could this be a potential problem? Is this a big NO NO?

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

No. The Sinclair sizing mandrel is basically a die that has different caliber mandrel's. I use it to size the inside neck diameter(basically bringing it back to caliber). I use it instead of the sizing ball on a regular sizing die. That way the expander ball on the regular die does not affect the brass at all. I think the expander ball is the "ROOT OF ALL EVIL"-so I get rid of them. IMO there is no way the expander ball can stay perfectly centered in the case, and I also believe it has an affect on the shoulder when you are resizing the inside of the neck.

I also use the mandrel after I clean my brass, and I use sizing wax. I do not get any friction when I do this.

I definitely agree that runout is very important, but I am more concerned with chamber alignment. And since I shoot all my rifle's in single shot mode, I seat all my bullet's into the lands.

BC is right when you have to worry about bullet jump-but bullet jump does not concern me. I do have bulet jump in my lever actions, but I cast all my bullet's for my lever's, and quite honestly minute of deer accuracy is all I worry about in my lever's. Tom.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I used to do it this way. For over a decade, but last year found that there is slop in shell holders and actually best to pull out the spring holder out and let the shell holder float like one of the posters said. Awesome tip.

I go further and bounce the bullet in the seater and back out to let the brass center itself. Its made a world of difference.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

BC, so its probably not good when I put the bullet in the case and run in all the way up without turning it at all? Could that be part of my problem with the Bergers?

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Could be, could not be. Roll your finished cartridgeon a mirror or something and see if the bullet wobbles noticably. When seating, just bring the ram up to touch the seater plug and back off, and see your case moves out in the shell holder. If it does then thats slop inthe shell holder. Some shell holder/seater combos, do not move at all, and some like my 7mm08, moved out several mills.

Its made a world of difference in my runout.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

Thanks BC, I'll try it.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I don't know jack about this stuff compared to you guys but, kinda like Roskoe, I was forced into doing this to a degree. I'm cheap...and I'm in college...and I don't shoot enough to justify a "real" press. So the Lee hand press it what I have and by it's very nature the shell is always wiggling around in its seat. It just made sense that I needed to really take my time and let the shell center itself and that naturally progressed to me turning 2-3 times while seating.


Now, I never measured, thought about, or noticed it making any difference. But heck, I'm happy to make minute of deer loads for my revolvers (well, I'll be honest...minute of coke-can):D and after fighting 60gr bullets in my 1-14" 22-250 I was happy to get true sub MOA groups out of the 53gr barnes.

RE: Little tip to eliminate runout
 

I trim the cases, turn the outside of the necks for a uniform neck wall thickness, and polish the insides with fine steel wool.
I have also radiused and polished the expander ball, and leave it a little loose in the die. I have to full length resize and then some for my 25 wssm shoulders.
I set the bullet on the case neck, as straight as I can, and seat it.
My runout on my case necksand loadedcartridges is about .002", every now and then .004"
I havn't messed with the RCBSshellholder spring..................yet.