CalHunter

Question asked, question answered.

VC, you made both of these comments. I could dig up more of your comments but you know what I mean (vern). In your dichotomy, the Brits and Poles do make a difference because they help persuade your domestic and global opinion. They help influence that opinion that you profess is so important.

In a practical sense, "2,000 or so troops from Poland or wherever" represents as much as 5 battalions or the equivalent of a brigade or even regiment in size. Whether you admit it or not, that does free up a substantial # of U.S. troops so they can be used in more urgents areas of the battle.

You have told me that I must present "concrete evidence" and then tell me in your argument that "perception is reality." You call my points "trivial and irrelevant and hair-splitting that further detracts and derails the intention of the thread" yet you are essentially doing much of the same. You argue that the world's opinion is what counts, what sets the stage and determines which perception is reality. Is it really VC? You think about this for a minute. You are falling into the liberal matra and their self-defeating trap. You're smarter than that so consider this.

France is a loser nation and pretty much so are Germany and Russia. Do their opinions really mean more than America's? America sets the world stage, conquers countries that those pathetic losers can't and pretty much calls the shots. What did Russia accomplish in Afghanistan? Nothing for 10 years of effort. What did Germany ever accomplish in the far east? They managed to help contribute to the creation of Israel which is a sworn enemy of the nazis. What has France ever done in the military arena. Even the internet search engines ask you if you mean "French Defeats" instead of French Victories." If all 3 of these countries are such losers, why would you be worried about their concerns?

vc1111

On one hand, America feels like most of the world doesn't "get it" as expressed in the sentiment that "we will never satisfy them; they will always hate us." Yet, we go to great pain to appear to be in concert with others. Ironically, it is mostly Americans that create the dichotomy, the twin values to be applied to this conflict. On one hand we must treat thugs that behead innocents (murder) under the Geneva Convention, on the other, our entire army is expected to somehow perform flawlessly.

How can such dichotomy be fostered? In the context of this thread the answer is easy. Place cameras on and around the battlefield. Allow virtually unscripted and highly edited photographic versions of chaotic events to be released.

Yes, as long as the cameras are humming amidst the chaos.

We no longer trust in God, family, or America. We want cinematography; photographic proof of some high-minded imaginary form of perfection from within our loftiest ideals. Instead you get Abu Ghraib and a macro head shot to be used by your enemies as they please.

IMO, their opinions do not matter as much as America's, yet somehow they still matter to America, don't they? Can you not see how this argument is not mine personally, but originates from all around us?

America is once again engaging in what is historically speaking a new venture in warfare, whereby, we conquer and rebuild, instead of conquering, killing, and confiscating. It lowers the stakes for our enemies, while increasing our risk exponentially. We were in that rat hole of a country once before, we had its leader down, we had our sword to his throat, and we let him up, figuratively shook his hand and said, "Now play nice or we'll be back." Is that not madness? Was he not a threat then?

Was that wounded Iraqi a "prisoner" or was he not? Were the soldiers in question in danger? What was the context of the event; what were the details leading up to it? ...Propaganda by default avoids such questions. That is why the questions are trivial, not because you or the others make powerful arguments as to the answers one way or the other. That is why dismissing the arguments offhand is appropriate absolutely, not because the arguments are or are not valid in and of themselves.

Strength in battle matters always, but it is secondary always to the behind-the-scenes politicizing of the events on and off the battlefield. As a result it will never be enough to simply "call the shots" on the battlefield. Want proof? I believe it was you that said we won every battle in Viet Nam. What was the final outcome, Cal?

vc1111

Kenton1... If a member repeatedly insists on blurting out the type of stupidity and thoughtlessness shown above, and levels it at me, I will decide whether or not I want to address it. If you had the stones to post anything controversial on this board, like it or not, you would also eventually arrive at the same juncture. Perhaps you're more comfortable discussing which bullet or broadhead to use... ad nauseum.

Want to play? Jump in. Want to wimper? Don't read it or post on it. No one is dragging you in here, are they? Its a discussion about an American soldier shooting an enemy at close range while cameras roll. Yea, its bound to be controversial on a largely conservative board to even question how such a film could be created and released, and more importantly, the impact it has and why. No intellectual stones? Afraid to put on your big boy pants and play? Not my problem.

Got stones?

badshotbob

VC is still on the rag I see.

Johnny

Like the bloodhound you portray, I figured you'd smell the bait drifting in the breeze...follow it, identify it and take a vicious bite as the hook buries deep within. Maybe next time huh? Heck, I'd probably wouldn't see it for a month or two anyways. Have a goodin' and give Stealthy a big 'ol confederate hug for me will ya?

CalHunter

I still argue no; that insurgent was not a prisoner at that time for the same reasons I have previously posted. He wasn't controlled, in custody or secure. Now the information is slowly leaking out about one of his hands moving. More will come out. I think the Marine will be exonerated. Certain people who want to damn America will scream coverup, foulplay, etc. They will be wrong as usual and continue losing credibility.

Yes, they were in the middle of a battle and every insurgent most definitely poses a danger to them until they have captured and controlled those insurgents. You were in battle before VC and definitely know that insurgent did pose a danger. Hence your comment about you would have shot him too.

From reading the accounts you pasted, it appears that those Marines received insurgent (enemy) fire from that same building, returned fire and were in the process of clearing it so as to render the building safe for them. They were in a firefight and it was not over yet. That would clearly make anybody in that building an enemy combatant.[]

Propaganda by definition also avoids the truth and attempts to create its' own false reality. In other circles, propaganda is variously referred to as BS, crap, treason, etc. there is a reason why propaganda never ultimately triumphs and always sinks back to its' baseline.

If this were true, then Hitler would still be conquering and running the world. But he didn't quite get there, did he? His propaganda ran smack dab into American and British reality and he got a butt whoopin. Propaganda, like lies and corruption only survives when good people refuse to stand up and fight it. Questions are important and not trivial because that is how people learn more about a situation and then make their own judgements. To dismiss the arguments offhand is not only inappropriate but is foolhardy and completely ignores reality. Reality VC is that America is going to continue to pacify Iraq and there isn't jack that the insurgents, france, germany, russia or any of those other whiners can do about it. Reality is that many Americans are waking up to the fact that we do not need the world's approval to run our affairs nor do we need to pay for the world's problems because they're too corrupt, ineffective, effete and stupid to fix their own problems. Reality is that the European Union is a herd of competing nations who do not back each other up and will always be trying to backstab each other. Reality is that they simply do not matter.

This is definitely true to a degree. although, strength in battle is never enough. You must also have the will to continue using that strength and the intelligence to use it wisely. In Vietnam, we did not have the will to continue using that strength nor did we always use it wisely (propping up corrupt South Vietnam rulers, etc.). That war epitomizes the problems with allowing politicians to run battles and even firefights and skirmishes. It simply does not work and produces paralysis and dysfunctionality. The final outcome of the Vietnam war VC was that we won every single battle and then walked away from winning the war. We declared ourselves the losers and the Vietnamese will still never understand how we can be that foolish. And more importantly, neither can many of us Americans.

I enjoy debating with you VC and do understand how you're trying to generate an intelligent debate and cause members to truly think about what they think, post and believe. Much of the world still views America through the prism of Vietnam and thinks we don't have the stones to follow through on what we start. They view Reagan as an aberation in our Presidency and saw Clinton as being just more Vietnamization of the U.S. The world is still not sure that Bush is the real deal and that he will have the stones to follow through. Many of those nations are hedging their bets and hoping Bush does back down, retreat or fail. Those nations need to throw away the Vietnamese prism and catch a clue--Reality is setting in fast and it has a very real bite. Many of those nations will end up paying a price that will anger their citizens as it should. Bad government always leads to bad decisions and consequences for the citizenry.

A large, outspoken and belligerent minority in America thinks the same way. These people are wrong but won't admit it. They would rather continue arguing something that is patently false than give the other side the satisfaction of admitting they were wrong. They believe the cause justifies their tactics and the end justifies their means. These people are damaging themselves, their credibility and their integrity. It's a slippery road and once you start heading down that road, it's awful hard to turn around and come back.

As always, VC, it really is fun debating with you. You take a contrarian position to stimulate argument and thoughtful discourse and I get the far easier job of just arguing the facts and reality. My job is even easier since you often really believe and agree with the arguments I am making and hide that to stimulate a much broader and interesting discussion. Again, it's a pleasure as always.
Cal

driftrider

I will reserve judgement on this one. As a former Marine I can't say for certain if, in the same situation, I'd have done the same thing or not. I can, however, empathize somewhat with what those Marines were thinking and feeling. They've seen their buddies blown up by boobie-trapped bodies, seen the Iraqi TERRORISTS use underhanded (and illegal) tactics to kill the buddies like faking dead, or worse, faking surrender, to lure Marines into ambushes. I'm sure he probably thought that is was better to make sure the guy was dead than get blow up by a concealed grenade or shot in the back on the way out of the room. If that were genuinely his state of mind at the time, and I were on his jury, I'd conclude that he was from his perspective, and from the perspective of any reasonable person under similar circumstances, justified in his actions. Remember, this is WAR, and the rules regarding the application of deadly force become much less black and white than in a civilian defensive lethal force encounter.

I'm going to allow the Marine Corps and NCIS to do their job and investigate this incident, and allow the JAG Corps to review the evidence and take the appropriate action. I just hope that they don't unjustly fry this kid to appease the squeeling peaceniks and make an examply out of him. War is hell...and we shouldn't punish our warriors for doing what the feel is necessary to accomplish their mission and protect their own lives and the lives of their comrades-in-arms.

Mike

vc1111

Thanks, Cal. You've pretty much nailed all of it as usual.

I know what happens when I let you push my buttons, Johnny, and I know how well you do it. I hope you're feeling well, and I hope you and your family have a great holiday season together.

royak

There is only one answer to problems like this
Every time you turn around a reporter is sending a picture of our troops doing something they think is wrong. THIS IS A WAR forget the damn pictures and let our boys do their job.

Johnny

I'm feeling great Vince; lots of deer hunting going on. I hope you have a good holiday season yourself and while you're at it, send some of that stuff y'all call snow down this way! Tis the season.