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Politics Nothing goes with politics quite like crying and complaining, and we're a perfect example of that.

Your opinion is needed...

Old 08-05-2019, 06:44 AM
  #1  
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I wrote this on Facebook after these crazy shootings recently. Only a few of my friends responded with positive comments. Everyone else (some of my liberal relatives, my fag cousin, etc...) didn't bother to respond. Pffffttt.. No surprise there...
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This might come across as offensive to some, and for that, I hope you understand where I am coming from, regarding the news over the shooting in El Paso, TX.

SCENARIO: We are together in a WalMart in... oh hell, I don't know... let's just pretend we're in the suburbs of Frankfort, Kentucky or Lexington, Kentucky, on our way on a nice vacation somewhere, and we pulled off the interstate to get gas, get more stuff for the trip, etc...

Edit: We are heading to "Land Between The Lakes" and/or Lake Barkley in Kentucky/Tennessee on a fishing trip. Sounds okay?

I have with me, my prized 1911 .45 ACP displayed open carry style, in a holster on my belt loop (legal in VA, legal in KY, legal all over the place, as seen in the map below).
All of the sudden, some totally insane nutjob, with an AK-47 starts to open fire on innocent shoppers in the Walmart. How the guy got the AK is a mystery, why he is doing what he is doing is also a mystery.
We run for cover and try to cower behind a tall display of canned goods. I peer out from beside the display of goods, and return fire with my .45 ACP that is loaded with 230gr hollow points, and fatally wound the perpetrator, dropping him and his AK-47 right there in the aisle.

Now, I took an oath of enlistment that stated, "I {my legal name} do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, so help me God..."
AS A RETIRED MILITARY VETERAN, THAT OBLIGATION DOES NOT EXPIRE!!

Questions that need to be asked regarding this scenario above:
(1) How many innocent lives did I save in that WalMart by taking out the perpetrator?
(2) Was I in the right, even though I am not a police officer, but as a retired military veteran armed with a legally owned 1911 .45 ACP?
(3) Will I go to jail and/or face serious lawsuits by the perpetrators family, because it was ME that ended his life?
(4) What would you do in the scenario above?

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Old 08-05-2019, 07:24 AM
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I'd drop him if I could.

I was at the San Ysidro Mc Donalds when a nutcase shot a bunch of people. I spent over an hour cowering under my pickup truck.

The majority of the time I most always carried, call it paranoia if you want to, I call it being prepared,. This trip I was returning from Baja fishing and decided to leave my pistol home. I didn't want a hassle at the border. I watched this nutjob blow a kid off his bicycle from around fifty feet away. From the prone position at fifty feet, I'd make that shot 999 times out of a 1000.

IMO it only takes once to make a believer out of you. Thirty-five years later and I still have nightmares about that kid on his bicycle.
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:14 AM
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Butch, no on knows what they will do if caught in a situation in a crowded place and an active shooter indiscriminately shooting people. We all want to think we would do the right thing, but what is the right thing? It is not hallways the same . I am almost always carrying and I am good with a handgun, I still qualify every year and I am 72 years old. The thing is, it is entirely possible that shooting at the suspect inside a crowded building or parking lot where people are in pandemonium running everywhere that trying to shoot the gunman would make you just as much a danger to those people as the criminal shooter. Having a clear shot and taking it to protect others is one thing and whipping out your handgun and popping off rounds in the middle of people running every which way is another. Don't get me wrong, if I had a clear shot I would take the guy out but sometimes the smart thing do do is take cover and wait until you get the clear shot and if it does not come you don't shoot. It is a responsibility to carry a firearm and gun fights inside a crowded building should be a no other choice situation that requires more thought than I am going to get that SOB.
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:56 AM
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Thank you...

MudderChuck, I can't imagine that horror that you witnessed at that McDonald's. My God... and watching an innocent little kid get blown away.

Oldtimr, Thank you as well. You are the voice of reason and a valuable member of this forum!
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Old 08-05-2019, 09:04 AM
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one other factor that most people won,t initially think of, is lets say you squeeze off a couple shots and drop the perp,
the cops rush in, and invariably someone on the location will point you out as one of the shooters ,
as most will not have been in a position or of clear mind to recognize what was going down from a non-partial perspective.
lets say you stopped the perp and saved who knows how many lives, but one of your shots missed ,
or zipped through the perp and killed or wounded an innocent bystander, what are the legal problems you face then.
yes I think Id engage the nut-job and yes I carry 99.9% of the time, but your sure to have legal and financial consequences
but I would never sleep nights if I had the opportunity and failed to do what I could to stop a terrorist and save lives,
the chances of any one of us, individually too ever have the opportunity too be in the correct time and place too stop a terrorist is absurdly low,
the chance that one or several of the tens of millions of concealed carry permit holders is rather good, and it surely could save lives
Im really rather surprised that more people don,t carry

Last edited by hardcastonly; 08-06-2019 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 08-05-2019, 09:06 AM
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This is an interesting scenario and set of questions. My "opinion" below in blue ink.

Originally Posted by ButchA View Post

Questions that need to be asked regarding this scenario above:
(1) How many innocent lives did I save in that WalMart by taking out the perpetrator?
That's hard to say as it depends on a lot of factors that could be in play.
1. How much ammo does the shooter have left?
2. Is he a good shot or a lousy one?
3. How close (easy) are his potential victims?
4. Will his rifle jam? And if so, does he know how to clear it?
5. How close are police to responding?
6. Does the shooter think police or somebody else is close and will he turn his gun on himself and commit suicide? Or is he waiting for a shootout, suicide by cop, etc.?
7. Is there another CCW person nearby going through your same thought process and might they choose to shoot the suspect?
8. Will your gun jam? Is a round chambered? Can you make the shot?
9. Do you have an unobstructed shot at the shooter or are people getting in the way as OT posited could happen?
10. How soon would you process the situation, make a decision to act and then shoot?
11. That would be an intensely stressful situation. How accurate would your motor skills and shooting be?
12. Is the shooter wearing a vest and would you recognize that and switch to a failure drill (move to the head which is a much smaller target)?
13. You get the idea and all of the above would apply to all of us if we found ourselves in the same situation. And there, I've stopped at lucky # 13.


(2) Was I in the right, even though I am not a police officer, but as a retired military veteran armed with a legally owned 1911 .45 ACP?
Simple answer is yes. Stop the shooter from murdering more people. Just don't shoot anybody else by mistake, watch your background (probably have innocents fleeing in the background) and consider how close you want to get for the shots.

(3) Will I go to jail and/or face serious lawsuits by the perpetrators family, because it was ME that ended his life?
Going to jail depends on what protocols the police responding police agency(s) have and what their District Attorneys' Office tells them to do as a policy. Mine used to tell police to arrest the good guy under the old DA. The new DA changed that practice as it was just plain wrong. Being sued civilly is a grab bag as it depends on how messed up the shooter's family is or is not. From what I've seen in the press, that doesn't seem to happen very often unless it's the police who killed the suspect. The old saying is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 (in a coffin). Along with all of those other potential victims, you are also a potential target for that shooter and especially if he sees you holding a gun.

Before I forget, also plan on what to do AFTER you shoot the shooter and stop him. The police will respond and they won't know initially if you're a good guy or a second suspect. Better have a plan for that also.


(4) What would you do in the scenario above?
I already know. Shoot the bad guy and stop him from murdering anybody else. You're on the right track. It's not fun to go through and definitely isn't just some big adventure. But saving other people's lives is a commitment we've both made.
Good scenario and set of questions. Anybody carrying CCW should be thinking about stuff like this as it's too late to do that thinking after a situation starts happening.

Last edited by CalHunter; 08-05-2019 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Sp.
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Old 08-05-2019, 09:34 AM
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I agree all law full carry folks would like to think they can stop the shooter, but , after SO many yrs of selling guns, having a indoor range, and training folks, and just time spent on ranges,
honestly, most folks THINK There way better shooters then they are!
BUT at some point I also think, risks have to be taken when things go BAD bad!
a second thought to your above, is, what happens when your SHOOT< and others show up NOT knowing who the good guy or BAD guys are, your placing yourself at risks of being shot for having a gun in your hands at this point!
as for are you RIGHT to take action, I will say this, I think it comes down to what all happens and how and why and WHO the lawyers are that get involved, how the media reacts and a few other things
I have known a lot of folks over the yrs that have shot and a few that killed others in self defense(as well as law enforcement that did so on the job)
and most all private citizens were hand cuffed and many went to jail till facts came about to clear them, legal costs got high for some and some others not!
Hate to say it this way, but of many I knew, it kinda came down to WHO they knew or there Family knew as to HOW they were treated! the wealthier of them, had way less negative treatment and the poorer one's got a lot of flack!
Times have changed some, due to modern media seeing and knowing almost everything as to yrs of the past!

but the question is, an unknown answer, as too many variables unknown till your in that spot IMO to say one way or the other!

HOW would you handle shooting/killing an innocent person , if by accident? or on purpose!
its NOT as easy as many think when the adrenaline fads away!

personally I think society has a LOT of issue's with the RIGHT thing happening anymore, if its NOT the cool thing to be doing! a shame, and logic sure seems missing to me in a large portion of folks today, ! folks sure seem to have lost there ability to VENT in less harmless ways!
society glorify s folks in movies/TV show's that seek out revenge killing ,
BUT In the REAL world, in reality, its never the same results! seems many don't get the differences in FAKE TV/ Movies
and this insane desire so many have today to be Famous , is scary IMO!

Last edited by mrbb; 08-05-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:18 PM
  #8  
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Wow... Thank you all for the excellent replies. I kind of had an idea of what COULD happen later on, but never in so much detail!

Maybe it's good or bad, but all I own and carry is my beloved 1911 .45 ACP. Anyone who's familiar with this classic old warhorse, knows that it is darn near impossible to conceal, so I always carry it openly in a holster with a strong belt - or else it will try to pull my pants down! LOL..

I also think many of you are absolutely correct with the reasoning that if I was in a situation (like the Walmart scenario I came up with) and openly carried my 1911, and a perpetrator armed with an assortment of AR's and handguns, physically saw me with the 1911 on my hip, I would probably be the first one he'd try to take out!
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Old 08-05-2019, 12:29 PM
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The first order of business in any shooting situation is to take cover, hide or make yourself as small a target as possible. You are no help to anybody dead or injured.
I've been sucker-punched a few times in my life. Or to be more specific, somebody came up behind me and hit me hard enough to stun me. When I open carry my pistol is in the front.

A side note, back in the day it wasn't unusual to see some old-timer open carry. It actually seemed to put a damper on the loudmouths and those looking for trouble. The old saying "an armed society is a polite society" comes to mind.

Last edited by MudderChuck; 08-05-2019 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 08-05-2019, 02:56 PM
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just envisioning the above scenario above sure would make me put a high premium on carrying an exceptionally accurate pistol,
and got me thinking hard about what I carry (a glock 20 10mm)
15 shot mags

2.6" groups at 25 yards
as its marginally less accurate than what I used to carry (a S&W 1006 10mm)
9 shot mags

2" groups at 25 yards
thinking about the potential difference in accuracy vs mag capacity,
, I doubt youll get off or need to get off enough shots to make the difference in mag capacity critical
especially due to the fact I generally carry two extra mags for both pistols
having a percentage of the population, who are sane and level headed,
being concealed carry permit holders,
well, known too exist and significant percentage of the civilians ,
being a well armed and skilled segment of the population deters crime and violence,
and should limit the potential for mass shooting victims,
simply by having the ability to effectively fight back if threatened,

Last edited by hardcastonly; 08-05-2019 at 04:57 PM.
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