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Want to end the Opiod epidemic? Legalize Heroin.

Politics Nothing goes with politics quite like crying and complaining, and we're a perfect example of that.

Want to end the Opiod epidemic? Legalize Heroin.

Old 02-22-2019, 01:28 PM
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Default Want to end the Opiod epidemic? Legalize Heroin.

Worth watching.
The Swiss had an epidemic, now they don't. also prostitution largely disappeared as a result.

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Old 02-23-2019, 10:50 AM
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I have not finished listening to the whole thing yet. It is very intriguing but he is way off ,in my opinion, by repeatedly talking about the police "harassing" people over drugs. They are enforcing the laws that we have (again in my opinion), that is all. And so far (45 minutes in) he has kinda ignored the fact that we are responsibility for the choices we make. Definitely a different view though.
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Old 02-23-2019, 01:07 PM
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All they did to reduce crime was to make crime legal. They did not make crime nor addiction go away. This is how liberals handle crime, they decriminalize it, then brag how there is less of it.
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Old 02-23-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Oldtimr View Post
All they did to reduce crime was to make crime legal. They did not make crime nor addiction go away. This is how liberals handle crime, they decriminalize it, then brag how there is less of it.
What he said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:44 PM
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This is almost 3 hours long. I'm listening to it but skipped ahead while Johann Hari was bashing Arizona. He whined about the treatment of convicted drug criminals that humiliates them and then missed a lot of important information that anybody with his apparent level of education should be able to learn or discern. He kept saying that lab rat experiments involving drugs provide skewed results because the rats are given some warm and fluffy environment, etc. He is missing the point of the lab experiments and what they prove as opposed to what he claims they prove, essentially a straw man argument.

Hari liked the Swiss method of having people go into a legal clinic where they get injected with quality heroin and cannot take the heroin outside so you cannot sell it. The Swiss clinics provide the heroin for free along with lots of help in figuring out why you need heroin and help to get off of it. His example of Switzerland's legalization of prostitution is similar to Nevada's laws. His mentioned Portugal's laws legalizing drugs and spending the drug war money on services to turn around the lives of people who were hooked on drugs. One example was paying for half of a person's wages at a regular job for the first year of being employed as an addict. He also mentioned Switzerland finding the root causes of addiction which were a lot of things for different people. Anything that reduces shame, pain and humiliation will over time reduce the need for addiction. It didn't work for everybody but worked for a huge percentage of addicts in Switzerland.

About an hour into the video, Hari told a story federal Bureau of Narcotics and Harry Anslinger as its' head. Anslinger took over the Prohibition Department when alcohol was legalized again and then invented the "war on drugs" to keep his department alive. Hari spoke about Billie Holiday and how Anslinger hated drug addiction and black people. In Hari's opinion, the U.S. is continuing Anslinger's twin hatreds. This is where he tends to go off the rails. I periodically takes the actions of certain individuals and extrapolates them to the entire country in modern times with no evidence to support such theories.

I'm up to about 1 hour and 20 minutes into this 3-hour video. He brings up some valid points but also uses a lot of logical fallacies (otherwise known as BS) to prove many of his points and claims. The person interviewing him doesn't seem to make any attempt to rein him in or require actual proof or even a coherent arguments. Instead, the interviewer acted like he was drinking Kool-Aid and essentially egged him on as his straight man. Anybody who thinks drug addiction, drug laws and the war on drugs is a simple black and white issue is naive at best and delusionally stupid at worst.

Hari's solution is to legalize all drugs. Period. Then spend the funds that were previously spent on locking people up and fighting the war on drugs on treatment. He ignored (at least in the first hour and 20 minutes or so) the fact that the U.S. currently has a drug overdose epidemic where thousands of people are dying each year. He doesn't mention fentanyl which is 80-100 times stronger than heroin. He spoke about Switzerland and Portugal having lots of addicts in their countries and all of the attendant crime problems associated with the illicit drug trade but he didn't mention drug overdoes deaths at all. Hari also glossed over the fact that for Switzerland's drug and prostitution programs to work, they essentially had to outlaw drugs and prostitution outside of those programs and enforce those laws to force people to use the programs.

I'm not saying Hari is all wrong. I think he made some good points. But he also slung a lot of BS and glossed over a lot of continuing problems which neither Switzerland nor Portugal were able to solve. Put another way, in a world with over 16 million colors, nothing Johann Hari, is ever just black and white.
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:29 AM
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I grant you the young today, for the most part, seem a lot more sophisticated than people in my age group did in our early teens. But young people are in general a little gullible and sometimes stupid. What I mean by stupid is they succumb to peer pressure easily and tend to live from day to day instead of a broader perspective, They often seem to jump on any new fad that comes along, they often remind me of liberals. IMO by legalizing it you are promoting it and basically saying if the big kids can do it it is the grown-up thing to do, perhaps making it more attractive to the young.

First off Switzerland (and Portugal) has roughly the population as L.A. County, the major drug problems in Switzerland are in the big cities, there are only 3 or 4. IMO drugs must be easier to manage in Switzerland. And don't overlook the basic societal influences you are dealing with, the Swiss are generally low crime, socially organized and more structured than much of America is. Making a one size fits all program a lot more likely to succeed. From what I've read their success rate is around 50%, lumping the three main programs into one sack.

I remain skeptical that legalization would be a success and may fan the flames of addiction, especially in the young. And I have my doubts legalization would have the same results throughout all demographics and American subcultures. And the programs are likely to have the same mixed results.

Germany's solution is to lock them up in rehab centers, the rehab centers are basically a halfway house between normal society and a serious nuthouse, some are huge. Out of sight out of mind is the way they do it here.
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Old 02-27-2019, 02:10 PM
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NPR ran a show on how heron is fine, and illegal to persecute blacks. I call bs, if that is ok to write. I sure don't have time to watch a YouTube video.

millions of Americans take opiods, and are just fine. It is not as addicting as herion. So boggles me how legalizing something more addictive could help.
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Old 02-27-2019, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Berserker View Post
NPR ran a show on how heron is fine, and illegal to persecute blacks. I call bs, if that is ok to write. I sure don't have time to watch a YouTube video.

millions of Americans take opiods, and are just fine. It is not as addicting as herion. So boggles me how legalizing something more addictive could help.
It has a lot to do with the dose, the purity, and consistent strength of the product. Even Doctors screw it up. My Mother died at 53 from prescription drugs and alcohol. When I cleaned out her house I found enough prescription drugs to open a drug store. My brother and I went and had a talk with the Doctor. I don't know if it did any (long term) good or not, but the Doctor peed his pants during the visit.
I knew a young girl, 16 years old, pretty as a picture, sweet and loving, She died taking non-prescription Mexican tranquilizers. The strength of the tablets was radically different from one to the next. Best guess is the dealer did a poor job of mixing in the baby formula to cut the finished product.
On multiple occasions, I had serious trouble with dealers pushing to family members. Dealers don't come at you one at a time, they come in bunches.
I really can't see legalizing it will do much if any good, anything that is controlled is going to have a black market. Legalizing Pot didn't do much good, you can buy your weed at half the price on the streets as in the pot shop.
I remain seriously skeptical legalizing it would solve the problem. And it is likely a whole new set of problems may develop, unintended consequences.

Last edited by MudderChuck; 02-27-2019 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 02-27-2019, 08:14 PM
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The problem is the people who need them. I realize it is your mom, so maybe not to clear.

Do you let people suffer because some people can't take care of themselves? Me? No.

It is to the point where it is hard to get normal docs to write scripts. So you drive up the costs for people who need them. Some places give small amounts. Not everyone lives in a big city, or can get to the doctor weekly.

We could ban fatty foods, alcohol, cars that go fast, not to mention guns.
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Old 02-27-2019, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MudderChuck View Post
Itt 53 from prescription drugs and alcohol. When I cleaned out her house I found enough prescription drugs to open a drug store. s.
You may not be the right person to talk about this. Some people will poop themselves because it did hit you. But ignoring the obvious.

I am going to take the selfish road. I am not giving up my life, cause an adult made bad choices. I realize I am talking about your mother. But you brought it up. Stocked up on booze and pills.

I am tired of the people who need it, that can't.
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