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A Key Zimmerman Witness!!

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A Key Zimmerman Witness!!

Old 07-08-2013, 10:33 AM
  #91  
Dominant Buck
 
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Bet he never thought he would be POTUS....or even have a job. He looks happy at least and is a better look than todays image.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:52 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Champlain Islander View Post
Bet he never thought he would be POTUS....or even have a job. He looks happy at least and is a better look than todays image.
I think he was channeling a young Michael Jackson there.

Although, that might be racist to say out loud.
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Old 07-08-2013, 12:15 PM
  #93  
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Everyday the news has a report on the TM / Zimmerman trial...but did you see any news about the 12 killed and 62 wounded in Chicago over the 4 of July weekend from Wednesday through Sunday....the liberal racist media doesn't want to report on black on black crime especially when it's a city run by liberal democrats....talk about gun crime.....
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:37 PM
  #94  
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Some of the posts on this topic offer arguably good advice but each situation can have things that complicate it and make a decision not such a simple one. For example:

Most CCW (CPL, etc.) holders attend classes to get their license and pretty much all instructors advise them to be a good witness and not get involved. In essence, get away and don't take action unless it's you or your family at risk. There are many scenarios used to impart this concept and they range from not being able to properly ID the participants (i.e. one could be an undercover cop trying to make an arrest, etc.) to even pointing a gun at someone, let alone using a gun with deadly force (killing someone) which will subject you to possible/probable arrest, prosecution and/or civil litigation. All of those things can certainly happen. Just carrying a CCW pistol can be a big responsibility and sometimes a genuine challenge. Living with the consequences of whatever you choose also comes with that responsibility.

As a general rule, you want to be a witness BUT each case can have complex issues that make the decision to get involved or not more complicated. Hard and fast rules that are inflexible are almost guaranteed to run into some kind of exception where the following the rule would result in a bad decision. A better rule (or guideline) to follow would be to only get involved and risk deadly force (displaying or firing your CCW pistol) when there is imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Not property and not when some bad guy is running away. You still have to figure out who is the bad guy in some situations but that's all part of that decision-making process. You're the one in the situation and you need to make your best decision possible.

Some comments on this board, the media and even by the prosecutors seem to think that calling 911 or reporting suspicious activity to the police is somehow suspicious in itself. If more citizens called 911, more criminals would likely get arrested and not be able to commit further crimes. Some of the inferences coming from the prosecution in this case are irresponsible and could reduce the # of people who call 911 in Florida for legitimate suspicious activity and that would be a shame.

Making a Citizens Arrest is something that seems to be a little misunderstood. A citizen (not a cop) can make the arrest and detain a person for the police if they want to. They absorb all of the civil liability in making such an arrest. Most people wait for the cops to arrive and (for the cops to) detain the person before they "place" the person under Citizens Arrest. Most citizens arrests don't involve the citizen putting hands on the guy and are merely signing arrest paperwork for the police officer. It's an option that citizens should consider carefully before they choose to exercise it but it doesn't make them some kind of vigilante if they make one.

I did not watch all of the trial but did manage to see some of the video highlights. From what I saw (and have read), the prosecution's evidence is kind of weak. Maybe there's more evidence than was shown but I would think the prosecutor would put forth their best evidence in a murder case. Guess we'll know in a short while. Be very interesting.

Last edited by CalHunter; 07-09-2013 at 07:07 AM.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:48 PM
  #95  
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A question I have for Cal Hunter since he is a trained LEO and has been in the industry for many years. From a professional law enforcement perspective, how do the police view citizens being armed? Does it present additional issues like making an altercation turn deadly? Few are killed by being punched in the jaw but when that happens and one or the other pulls out his piece there can be a different ending. How often are people with not enough training actually hurt or killed by their own weapon being taken away and used against them? I am asking these questions not as any argument of gun control but looking at the issue as viewed by a LEO. I was always taught that If I were carrying which is legal here for anyone without a felony or mental health issue and was stopped my first comment was to tell the officer that I had a gun on my person or in my car. I wouldn't even try to debate the second amendment rights to own and carry a firearm but do wonder how it works out for some of society’s less than desirable people. Lots of people like to go to the bars....how does having a 9MM stuck in the hidden holster work out statistically as viewed from the officers point of view? Is it more often trouble or does it fall into a non event type of classification. Does a weapon carried by a patron in a bar fight change anything?
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:11 PM
  #96  
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Dang CI, you said "A" question. Then asked many

Tho I am interested to see the response.

I'm also understanding FM's perspective. The left is figuring out how to use the created laws against lawful CCW holders.
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:02 PM
  #97  
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The problem that arises is that you don't know the circumstances.
Exactly! That's why the hypothetical situation your instructor gave was useless--no details. Specific details is why you won't answser the questions I asked.

My bet is the instructors HAVE to tell you that, as a CYA move. If they could track down an instructor that told Zimmerman to act aggressively, that instructor would also be in hot water.


What if the guy getting the beating in the parking lot is an attempted car-jacker and the guy doing the beating is an off-duty cop making an arrest?
You have to use a little common sense. You don't fly in guns a-blazin'. You yell--SCREAM--whatever it takes to get some attention. A LEO will identify himself in short order and tell you to get back. A LEO won't be splattering someone's brains across the parking lot with a tire tool--he/she will be trying to subdue, not kill. More than likely a LEO will have a weapon of his/her own, and be identifying himself/herself to the perp and tell them to stop resisting. Surprised your instructor didn't tell you these things. Maybe pepper spray would be a better option?

You own a gun and maybe carry one to protect yourself and your family. Having a CPL doesn't make you a crime fighter. Zimmerman has proved that.
How did Zimmerman prove anything, other than racists will take advantage of any opportunity?

It appears Zimmerman played by the book--even followed your instructor's advice. He was in his own neighborhood, called 911,tried to identify the suspect, didn't try to confront him, evidently retreated when told to do so by the 911 operator, screamed for help, then only after suffering substantial personal injury did he use his weapon from an obviously defensive position--and his life is still ruined. What exactly did we "learn" from his actions?

What could Zimmerman have done differently? Just ignore the suspicious character, who was in a gated community he didn't live in, wearing a "hoodie", roaming around alone on a rainy night, after a rash of robberies?
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:51 PM
  #98  
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here goes in blue ink. These are my opinions but they are from my personal and professional perspective.

Originally Posted by Champlain Islander View Post
A question I have for Cal Hunter since he is a trained LEO and has been in the industry for many years. From a professional law enforcement perspective, how do the police view citizens being armed?
Some cops like having people armed and some don't. I don't mind CCW's and recognize that CCW people are pretty much pro LE, extremely cautious about causing and/or getting into trouble and are on my "side."

Does it present additional issues like making an altercation turn deadly?
It can but most criminals (at least in my county) don't shoot at cops. I've had 1 guy shoot at me (we both shot each other) and the rest didn't shoot at me and I didn't need to shoot at them. Statistically, i guess that makes it less likely to get shot if even the criminals are armed (in my county).

Few are killed by being punched in the jaw but when that happens and one or the other pulls out his piece there can be a different ending.
I'm assuming you mean the criminal pulling out the cop's gun? If so, most cops wear some kind of safety holster to prevent that from happening (i.e. you have to know how to release the pistol). If you're talking about a cop pulling his/her gun in a situation, we do that a lot with burglar alarm calls, prowler calls, suspect with a weapon calls, felony stops, etc. I've probably pulled my gun maybe a thousand times over 16 years in patrol for these types of calls and only had to shoot it once at a suspect. I have, however, dispatched (that means finish off) quite a few injured deer that were not going to make it after being hit by a car.

How often are people with not enough training actually hurt or killed by their own weapon being taken away and used against them?
I haven't seen that happen in my county but it could happen. Usually a criminal runs away when a citizen pulls a gun as they aren't stupid--they know they're not likely to beat that .357, etc. I do tell people who ask that if they carry a CCW, they should already know if they are prepared to use a gun if necessary. If they're not, they should reconsider a CCW, etc.

I am asking these questions not as any argument of gun control but looking at the issue as viewed by a LEO. I was always taught that If I were carrying which is legal here for anyone without a felony or mental health issue and was stopped my first comment was to tell the officer that I had a gun on my person or in my car.
That's good advise as it let's the cop decide how to proceed without getting that "oh shoot" feeling upon seeing an undeclared gun. It's quite workable and will become a more common occurrence as more people carry CCW. If you think about it, cops do pull over off-duty cops and find out when they walk up to their car window. So just about every patrol cop has experienced finding out that a drive, passenger, etc. is carry CCW and had to "handle that situation.

I wouldn't even try to debate the second amendment rights to own and carry a firearm but do wonder how it works out for some of society’s less than desirable people.
If you're referring to criminals, they usually go to jail when they are stopped and carrying a gun. If you're talking about "regular" people, I've had quite a few on-duty 2nd amendment conversations with hunters, CCW holders, law abiding gun owners and even criminals (not all of them are bad guys).

Lots of people like to go to the bars....how does having a 9MM stuck in the hidden holster work out statistically as viewed from the officers point of view?
That is eschewed by all police agencies, CCW instructors and even most cops. Some places prohibit CCW holders from going into bars with their gun and most police agencies have regulations prohibiting the same from off-duty cops.

Is it more often trouble or does it fall into a non event type of classification.
It depends on the situation, the person, their criminal history (or lack of it) and a lot of variables.

Does a weapon carried by a patron in a bar fight change anything?
It could. It just depends on what happened and who did what or not. Acting stupid with a gun in a bar or otherwise is usually a crime of some type and not acting stupid usually isn't a crime.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:28 AM
  #99  
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I thought the CPL class was a good one. The suggested rules were an overview of how to handle yourself while armed. Of course there are exceptions to any general rule.

Outside of the regular instructor, we had three guest instructors. One was an assistant prosecutor, one a deputy sheriff, and one was a criminal defense lawyer. They were all, without exception, pro-second amendment and supporting the right of law-abiding citizens to carry.

It was made quite clear that carrying a gun doesn't make you a crime fighter. You may actually know more about the law than a police officer. But a police officer has a very substantial amount of training in being a crime fighter than the average citizen will ever have no matter how much TV you watch.

If a police officer shoots someone in the line of duty, there will be an investigation. But, unless there are some very unusual circumstances it will start with the presumption that the shooting was justified. But that won't be the case if you shoot someone, even if the circumstances clearly indicate that it was justified.

Here's an example of what I'm saying. Last winter, right here in our town, a homeowner shot a guy who broke into the house and killed him. There is no duty to retreat here if you are in your own home. In fact there is no duty to retreat if you are anywhere. And if you shoot someone and it's determined to be justified, there is no civil liability either. Okay, back to the story. The prosecutor "investigated' for three weeks before announcing that they would not bring charges. So the guy had to hire a lawyer, just in case, and sweat for three weeks while the prosecutor "investigated." Our county prosecutor is extremely anti-gun by the way.

None of these debates has changed my mind. Zimmerman and Martin were both stupid. Yes, I agree that the media and assorted race pimps are probably responsible for the fact that Zimmerman is being prosecuted for murder. Still, what if Martin had been armed? What if he had stuck Zimmerman with a knife before he could get to his gun?

Stupid, Stupid, Stupid.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:32 AM
  #100  
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Interesting comments from a LEO perspective. In my state there is little training and having a CCP isn't necessary due to the law. Anyone without a criminal history can carry and many probably don't have the training that goes along with a permit. Our population is small and violent crime for the most part is rare when compared to other places. When a gun type crime does occur the picture of the perp when arrested is indicative of a non Vermonter.
In the trial defense witnesses are saying it was Zimmerman screaming on the tape but police reports taken the day after have Zimmerman saying it wasn't he who was screaming. Things like that are what have me wondering what the true story is.

Last edited by Champlain Islander; 07-09-2013 at 02:35 AM.
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