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The utter immorality of the War on (some) Drugs

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The utter immorality of the War on (some) Drugs

Old 04-05-2013, 08:29 AM
  #41  
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BB, your earlier response to my post sounds like you're somehow trying to minimize the problems with marijuana. Are you saying that people stoned on marijuana are safe drivers? I hope not because that would be almost a delusional statement (no pun intended).

A few more marijuana gems to consider. In my county, we've only had a few home invasions but every one of them were for marijuana. A buddy was on a narcotics task force that raided several clandestine meth labs and marijuana gardens. Many of the marijuana gardens were booby-trapped but none of the meth labs were. Go figure.

People discussing pros and cons of marijuana largely focus the discussion on individual use and tend to forget about where the marijuana comes from, i.e. growers who don't want to be ripped off.

Another issue that I don't know the answer to but am curious is second hand smoke. Researchers have found different problems with 2nd hand cigarette smoke (see link below). I don't

http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/10...ren/19456.html
2nd hand cigarette smoke linked to ADHD in children.

http://secondhandmarijuanasmoke.com/
Interesting link on 2nd hand marijuana smoke.


I could go on but you get the idea. The crux of your position in support of legalizing marijuana appears to be a mixture of 2 premises or positions:

1. Other bad substances (cigarettes, alcohol) are legal so marijuana should be too. Note--I will admit this current status does have a certain illogical aspect.
2. Police/law enforcement spend a lot of money, manpower and resources on interdicting marijuana and those resources could be better used elsewhere.

Your argument or position doesn't take into account that there are health and financial consequences if your position becomes law.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:00 AM
  #42  
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Happy Day Charlie! Hope you have at least as many more ahead of you!

Cal, you are cheating--common sense and experience against internet stats? Come on...that's not giving them any kind of chance.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:39 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by CalHunter View Post
BB, your earlier response to my post sounds like you're somehow trying to minimize the problems with marijuana. Are you saying that people stoned on marijuana are safe drivers? I hope not because that would be almost a delusional statement (no pun intended).
According to the links, it's more safer than alcohol because they are more aware of their impairment and can compensate more effectively. I'm just putting it into perspective. Here's a study on fatigue for workers who have night shifts, since you thought marijuana was so terrible.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/573960.stm

"Researchers at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill found that drivers who did not work nights were four or five times less likely to crash their vehicle. "

Another issue that I don't know the answer to but am curious is second hand smoke. Researchers have found different problems with 2nd hand cigarette smoke (see link below). I don't

http://psychcentral.com/news/2010/10...ren/19456.html
2nd hand cigarette smoke linked to ADHD in children.
You could use a vaporizer.

http://secondhandmarijuanasmoke.com/
Interesting link on 2nd hand marijuana smoke.
"Marijuana does not impair lung function—at least not in the doses inhaled by the majority of users, according to the largest and longest study ever to consider the issue, which was published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association."

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article...er-3875562.php

Pot compound seen as tool against cancer

Your argument or position doesn't take into account that there are health and financial consequences if your position becomes law.
How? Marijuana isn't a gateway drug. There has been countless studies that have come to that conclusion.

http://news.ufl.edu/2012/07/10/alcohol-gateway/

UF study shows long-term drug abuse starts with alcohol

Yale study: Alcohol’s gateway effect much larger than marijuana’s

"A Yale study published Tuesday in the Journal of Adolescent Health found that people who used alcohol or tobacco in their youth are almost twice as likely to abuse prescription opiate drugs than those who only used marijuana."

On the contrary to legalization, putting people in jail tends to make people more likely to use drugs or become hopeless (wasting time in jail, job prospects less, etc.), and you can't undercut the gangs and underground economy or tax the marijuana.

Cal, you are cheating--common sense and experience against internet stats?
LOL Just recently you were praising him for posting a link from the Clinton News Network.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:11 PM
  #44  
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The conversation is getting interesting.

Originally Posted by BigBuck22 View Post
According to the links, it's more safer than alcohol because they are more aware of their impairment and can compensate more effectively. I'm just putting it into perspective. Here's a study on fatigue for workers who have night shifts, since you thought marijuana was so terrible.

Okay, of you say it's "more safer." Seriously, your argument here appears to be that alcohol is dangerous for drivers (DUI) and marijuana is less dangerous (no claim that it's safe) so legalizing marijuana makes sense (sort of). That kind of reminds me of people (my kids spring to mind) saying they shouldn't be in trouble because what they did was "less wrong." Not the most persuasive argument and is almost as bad as "well, he did it too."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/573960.stm

"Researchers at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill found that drivers who did not work nights were four or five times less likely to crash their vehicle. "
I don't disagree with this but don't see how this applies to this discussion.



You could use a vaporizer.
Okay. And this changes what?


"Marijuana does not impair lung function—at least not in the doses inhaled by the majority of users, according to the largest and longest study ever to consider the issue, which was published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association."
Several things occurring in this information. MJ users do tend to smoke less material than cigarette smokers. Your cited study found something positive but appears to ignore other negatives.

http://www.sfgate.com/health/article...er-3875562.php

Pot compound seen as tool against cancer
Research does suggest this.


How? Marijuana isn't a gateway drug. There has been countless studies that have come to that conclusion.
I don't recall anybody suggesting marijuana is a "gateway" to other drugs.

http://news.ufl.edu/2012/07/10/alcohol-gateway/

UF study shows long-term drug abuse starts with alcohol
Unequivocal statements like this are generally less than productive or useful. Some percentages, stats, etc. would be more helpful.

Yale study: Alcohol’s gateway effect much larger than marijuana’s

Another study that trumpets an observation without providing context. According to the latest census, there's about 315M people in the U.S. Comparing 67% (approximately 210 million) of this population to 1% (a little over a million) without some sort of context filter does not come across as very scientific nor unbiased (see below links establishing those figures).

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html
2013 Census estimate of population.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_perce...uana_in_the_us
Although approximately 60% of the population have smoked mj at one time or another, only about 1% of the population smokes mj daily.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/141656/dr...year-high.aspx
Approximately 67% of the population drinks alcohol although this study doesn't indicate the amount of alcohol consumed (i.e. moderate drinker compared to alcoholic).


"A Yale study published Tuesday in the Journal of Adolescent Health found that people who used alcohol or tobacco in their youth are almost twice as likely to abuse prescription opiate drugs than those who only used marijuana."
That may be true. It would be interesting to see what degree those same people used or didn't use mj.

On the contrary to legalization, putting people in jail tends to make people more likely to use drugs or become hopeless (wasting time in jail, job prospects less, etc.), and you can't undercut the gangs and underground economy or tax the marijuana.
LOL. That's a very pessimistic statement.


LOL Just recently you were praising him for posting a link from the Clinton News Network.
I thought that was VC but LBR may have given me a holler too.


To sum up, the crux of your argument for marijuana is that it's less dangerous and therefore should be legal. That isn't a very compelling argument.

Last edited by CalHunter; 04-05-2013 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:13 PM
  #45  
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Here's some facts from the government. I know, you don't trust them and they must have an ulterior motive, right??

How Does Marijuana Affect the Brain?

When marijuana is smoked, THC rapidly passes from the lungs into the bloodstream, which carries the chemical to the brain and other organs throughout the body. It is absorbed more slowly when ingested in food or drink.

However it is ingested, THC acts upon specific molecular targets on brain cells, called cannabinoid receptors. These receptors are ordinarily activated by chemicals similar to THC called endocannabinoids, such as anandamide. These are naturally occurring in the body and are part of a neural communication network (the endocannabinoid system) that plays an important role in normal brain development and function.

The highest density of cannabinoid receptors is found in parts of the brain that influence pleasure, memory, thinking, concentration, sensory and time perception, and coordinated movement. Marijuana overactivates the endocannabinoid system, causing the high and other effects that users experience. These include distorted perceptions, impaired coordination, difficulty with thinking and problem solving, and disrupted learning and memory.

Effects on Life

Research clearly demonstrates that marijuana has the potential to cause problems in daily life or make a person's existing problems worse. In fact, heavy marijuana users generally report lower life satisfaction, poorer mental and physical health, relationship problems, and less academic and career success compared to their peers who came from similar backgrounds. For example, marijuana use is associated with a higher likelihood of dropping out from school. Several studies also associate workers' marijuana smoking with increased absences, tardiness, accidents, workers' compensation claims, and job turnover.

Research has shown that, in chronic users, marijuana's adverse impact on learning and memory persists after the acute effects of the drug wear off; when marijuana use begins in adolescence, the effects may persist for many years. Research from different areas is converging on the fact that regular marijuana use by young people can have long-lasting negative impact on the structure and function of their brains.

A recent study of marijuana users who began using in adolescence revealed a profound deficit in connections between brain areas responsible for learning and memory. And a large prospective study (following individuals across time) showed that people who began smoking marijuana heavily in their teens lost as much as 8 points in IQ between age 13 and age 38; importantly, the lost cognitive abilities were not restored in those who quit smoking marijuana as adults. (Individuals who started smoking marijuana in adulthood did not show significant IQ declines.)

What Are the Other Health Effects of Marijuana?

Marijuana use can have a variety of adverse, short- and long-term effects, especially on cardiopulmonary and mental health.

Marijuana raises heart rate by 20-100 percent shortly after smoking; this effect can last up to 3 hours. In one study, it was estimated that marijuana users have a 4.8-fold increase in the risk of heart attack in the first hour after smoking the drug. This may be due to increased heart rate as well as the effects of marijuana on heart rhythms, causing palpitations and arrhythmias. This risk may be greater in older individuals or in those with cardiac vulnerabilities.

Marijuana and Driving

Because it seriously impairs judgment and motor coordination, marijuana also contributes to accidents while driving. A recent analysis of data from several studies found that marijuana use more than doubles a driver’s risk of being in an accident. Further, the combination of marijuana and alcohol is worse than either substance alone with respect to driving impairment.

Marijuana smoke is an irritant to the lungs, and frequent marijuana smokers can have many of the same respiratory problems experienced by tobacco smokers, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illness, and a heightened risk of lung infections. One study found that people who smoke marijuana frequently but do not smoke tobacco have more health problems and miss more days of work than nonsmokers, mainly because of respiratory illnesses.

A number of studies have shown an association between chronic marijuana use and mental illness. High doses of marijuana can produce a temporary psychotic reaction (involving hallucinations and paranoia) in some users, and using marijuana can worsen the course of illness in patients with schizophrenia. A series of large prospective studies also showed a link between marijuana use and later development of psychosis. This relationship was influenced by genetic variables as well as the amount of drug used and the age at which it was first taken—those who start young are at increased risk for later problems.

Associations have also been found between marijuana use and other mental health problems, such as depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts among adolescents, and personality disturbances, including a lack of motivation to engage in typically rewarding activities. More research is still needed to confirm and better understand these linkages.

Marijuana use during pregnancy is associated with increased risk of neurobehavioral problems in babies. Because THC and other compounds in marijuana mimic the body’s own cannabinoid-like chemicals, marijuana use by pregnant mothers may alter the developing endocannabinoid system in the brain of the fetus. Consequences for the child may include problems with attention, memory, and problem solving.

Finally, marijuana use has been linked in a few recent studies to an increased risk of an aggressive type of testicular cancer in young men, although further research is needed to establish whether there is a direct causal connection.
http://www.drugabuse.gov/publication...acts/marijuana
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:38 PM
  #46  
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I forgot to mention BB. Here's a guns and dope lobby you can support.


http://www.businessweek.com/articles...man-speaks-out
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Old 04-05-2013, 12:46 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by CalHunter View Post
Here's some facts from the government. I know, you don't trust them and they must have an ulterior motive, right??
Similar to the statements the president and several libs are constantly putting out about ARs and the recent shootings?

Propaganda?

Read the articles carefully... they read like infomercials.

"Limited research suggests," "research has shown," etc.

Where are the studies? They don't even cite them in the article.

Anyway, I said I was going to stay out of here...
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Old 04-05-2013, 01:32 PM
  #48  
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As far as I'm concerned majority of the the people for want pot leaglized are users themselves.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:22 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by sachiko View Post
I have to wonder though if weed maybe does affect your brain. I mean like, why would someone keep risking jail time and a criminal record just to get high, unless their thinking is kind of muddled?
They'll be asking the same re: gun owners, soon enough, if the grabbers get their way.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:48 PM
  #50  
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I thought that was VC but LBR may have given me a holler too.
I saw where he said that about me, but saw no benefits in confusing him with facts.

They'll be asking the same re: gun owners, soon enough, if the grabbers get their way.
Apples and footballs. Absolutley no comparison.
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