Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Can we get an update on the Boards meeting with the Snowshoe folks?
We have seen all the thoughts from members and Directors. We were told that a meeting with Snowshoe was forthcoming to discuss future weather related problems. Please give an update. Let' s hear what the Snowshoe management folks have to say.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

As I understand it there are several topics which are being worked on. Step 1, however, take notice of the dates for the 2004 Worlds as posted on the main page of IBO.net. They are listening and responding.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

As you all can see by the schedule for the 2004 World' s, we have gone to a four day format. Allowing the fourth day as a snow day! Shooting for the championship will be thurs.,and fri., with the finals on Saturday. Sunday will be as a backup.
We are working on several other changes that we will explain as soon as they are finalized.
We are looking at everything possible to provide a more versatile program.
ken12

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

WAY TO GO, I KNEW YOU GUYS WOULD FIGURE SOMETHING OUT, SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA TO ME. BUTCHB

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Every decision is appreciated by a percentage of the members/shooters and disliked by a percentage of the shooters.
We have gotten e-mails already asking to change it from the four days back to three
No matter where,when or how about half will not like it..
ken12

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Without a doubt, no truer words can be spoken...

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

This statement is true on some issues but not on everthing. I think that this issue is one that could effect the decisions of the membership very much within the next few months and therefore it would benefit the IBO very much to try to change the 50/50 to any figure that is in their favor. The forum itself does not represent a very big percentage of the membership but it does give you a small view of what the membership is thinking. Also it can influence the members that participate in the forum and the sport to some degree. If the upcoming changes are to be sold to the membership the first thing that must be done is to get a conseus of the objections and try to overcome them. You can' t sell anything till you overcome the objections. A few people backing the President does not mean that everything is ok. It would seem that nothing worth while has come from the meetings at Snow Shoe and so far the information that has been put on the net was never mentioned by the IBO until the question was raised by a member of the forum. COMMUNICATIONS This is an organization that relly needs to be strong from the bottom up or the results could be less than positive. A mailer to the membership would do more to understand and solve the real problems about the future World Shoot. Solving Snow Shoe Mountain' s problems is in some people' s opinion the smallest part of the problem. With 10 months to go it will take some real leadership to regain all of the people that were unhappy.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Fastfletch,
Give us a chance to finalize this information before we put it out. The four day format is a definate but there is more scheduling that has to be set first before anything can be published. As I told you on the phone, the membership will be made aware of any and all changes by a couple different ways. On this forum, attached to all World Invitations sent to all those who qualify to shoot in 2004' s World Championship, as members renew. Let there be no question, this will get out to the IBO membership. Doing a mass membership poll on changes for the World is not going to happen, where would we start and stop....it would go on and on and on. Some of the membership doesn' t like this decision so we change it and then do a mass poll and then the others don' t like that decision so we change it and do a mass poll and no one likes that decision so we do a mass poll and so on and so on and so on.
Judy

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Judy,
Thank you for your response.
My suggestions are just that suggestions. I am sure that many more people will have suggestions but it seems that the course of action has already been determined. Not knowing the inner workings of the IBO I will leave it for other people to make suggestions and opinions.
This thread has already added more information to the members who read the forum than anything to date. Timing is very important in solving any problems that may have made this a ligitimate problem to some people. I' m sureyou will do your best to do what you can to overcome people' s objections about future scheduling of shoots. A few questions already come to mind about the known changes, but until all the changes are known and made available to the interested shooters their is really nothing to discuss. Keep up your good work.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Has anything around reservations already made at Snowshoe, been discussed? Folks that get there the evening before will need to adjust.

Just a thought.

--Bob

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Very good point Bob, I' ll check in to that. Are you one that would need to be adjusted?
:)
Judy

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

:D:D:D Thanks Ken for the 4 days!!! With each small step forward the distance left is less. Now if we can just get a YOUTH HUNTER, and a SENIOR HUNTER CLASS!!!!

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

I THINK CHANGING THE SHOOT TO FOUR DAYS IS GREAT, NOW WE NEED TO MAKE THE CHAMPIONSHIP ROUNDS MORE SPECTATOR FRIENDLY. BRING THEM OUT IN THE OPEN WHERE EVERYBODY HAS A CHANCE TO WATCH, ADD TO THE EVENT SCHEDULE ON SATURDAY NIGHT MAKE IT WORTH WHILE HANGING AROUND THAT EXTRA DAY. NOW THAT PEOPLE CAN USE SUNDAY AS A TRAVEL DAY WHEN THE WEATHER DOESN' TMAKE US USE ALL FOUR DAYS. I SURE THIS WOULD INCREASE THE ATTENDANCE OF SHOOTERS AND SPECTATORS AT SNOWSHOE.:)

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Thats two happy familys.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Well fasstfletch you might as well add my family also! Another day would be great. Alittle bit more time to relax and take in the other sights.Thanks Ken and the B.O.D. FOURRUNNER

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

I don' t have a list nor do I feel that anyone should keep one. I hope that you have a wonderful time and the weather is great. After four years personally I can' t imagine what could possibly make it worth 5 or 6 years at the present time. Archery is a great game and I have shot about every kind that you can think of. 3D is one of my favorites but something different some times is the only good way to go. Good luck to everyone.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

WHAT DO YOU MEAN A POLL OF THE MEMBERS WOULD NOT BE FEASIBLE? DOES THE MEMBERSHIP NOT HAVE A SAY?

Judy you stated that where would it end? well in the USA i was raised that a vote is the way to go......i think a poll of the membership on their feelings towards this " hot" topic and a solution from that poll going towards the majority would be the American way, no? or is it just like every other " big company" that us " little people" keep getting kicked down by? they say that " the people" vote in our government officials......B.S big money votes them in and that is how most of us feel.......let us be heard by a membership poll and a resolution be brought on by it.

let our money(membership dues) be the " big money" and have a vote(poll)........

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Iroqouisarcher
So as an american my vote means nothing?
You did graduate high school at least i hope. Because that is stupid if you think it
dosent count.
As far as polling the membership it could be done but then again we would have people like you that think it was fixed and would not be happy.
Some people are not going to ever be happy, what you like some one else will hate. You sound like a person not happy with any thing done , by any one unless you were in charge and did it yourself. I guess if you had won you would not be complaining would you, so why not start practicing more, and shut up, this organization does the best they can some one might not agree but it is easy to just set back and complain and not have to do the work.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Archery 11

A poll does not lie if it is conducted the way a poll should be done. It could give an answer to some of the questions that are fragmenting this organization. It may also show that you are talking from inexpierence and emotion rather than knowledge of the issues. A person has the right to question any thing that he feels is not to his understanding and telling him to shutup and start practicing only shows your ignorence on the subject.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Ken I will give you a thumbs up for the 4 day format. I dont know how much that means, probably nothing but its better than me *itching about it right! :D

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

if you believe that your vote counts than we would have a different president, after all Gore had the most general public votes.........now lets not start a presidential debate because i am happy with the pres we got, for better or worse.
i am jsut saying that the majority in a vote should win, surely you agree with that and that is what i was trying to convey to you in my last post. everyone is brought up with that basic understanding that the majority rules.
so with that i say let the members vote by poll and the majority wins, seems logical to me........that is what is great about this country and why so many want to come to it.
by the way, calm down a little, apparently it is easier for you to find someone elses shortcomings(inyour eyes of course) to make yourself feel better. but someone of your intellect i won' t even try to match wits with........

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Polls are done but when you only get 8 to 10% response on a good day whose fault is it, so my question is what is the right way to do a poll. They have been put in programs and handed to shooters as they register I am looking for ideas that would get at least a 50% response you are the shooters what would get you to fill them out and return them?

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Without getting out of hand, would it be possible to put just a few questions on an IBO registration card for people to fill out when they renew their membership? I agree that the response on polls are usually very low, but if it was kept to 3-4 questions it might be accepted well. However, the work would be on the receiving end of the poll. And I do feel sorry for that person.

Great move making Snowshoe a 4 day shoot. I just hope people realize that changes to shoots like this are no easy decision and they are all meant to try and improve the quality of the shoot for the shooters. :D:D:D

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Until all the changes are published to the membership a poll would solve no purpose unless you ran a poll on future issues. A poll of the Forum would not cover enough members it would seem. Polls on future changes of rules or locations could be published when the board makes such changes but the changes should not be made until the following year so that the members can be made aware of any changes and have time to make suggestions or accept or reject such changes. There are many ways to do a poll, mass mail, score cards, ballots, telephone call in to an 800 number using membership number, sample surveys, polls sponsored by manufactures, etc. If the IBO does not have an 800 number maybe it would be worth installing one.

Moving forward should be the goal, looking back should teach us.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

All this talk about polls makes me laugh. Let me explain something to ya, This country is a democracy and therfore you have the right to vote in it. The IBO is a PRIVATE non profit organization ran by a president and a board of directors. It is NOT a Democracy. No where in anything you signed up for in your membership package does it say ANYTHING about you getting to vote on ANYTHING at all. The board of directors and the president will make the decisions whether you like that or not that' s the way it is. They don' t have to ask you how you feel about anything if they don' t want to. So far it seems like they have at least tried to do what they feel is what most of the membership wants. They are being nice. They don' t really have to. So to anyone who DEMANDS a say in how things are run and they MUST be heard I say no you don' t really need to be heard at all. After they tell you what decision they make THEN you can voice your opinion by either choosing to be part of the IBO or dropping out. All the moaning and complaining aint gonna help no one. Either accept the decision or not those are your REAL choices. Now I know some of you won' t like my post and probably will flame me for it. I tell things the way they are not neccessarily what you want to hear.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Punchmaster,
What do you think keeps this organization an organization?????? Do you think it is monetarily supported by the President and the BOD?????? I dont think so. It' s true you cannot please everyone and the deal with the weather is almost forcing them to extend the days. I dont think people are going to have a problem with that...lose the attitude will ya! Are you having a hard time harvesting a deer or something???

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

I agree the four day event will hopefully be better. I just get tired of reading posts that DEMAND a vote or that I should have a say in things going on. They AREN' T entitled to it. They also don' t give enough credit to Ken and the others who run the event who in my opinion have a very difficult job without hecklers from the sidelines. Ken and the leaders do carry the burden of keeping the membership up and the people happy to a certain degree so they will keep coming back but they also at times have to separate themselves from that and do what is in the OVERALL best interest of the organization no matter how unpopular that decision is within the membership.

Make suggestions, offer an opinion, that' s fine: But thinking that we are all gonna vote on something that' s just crazy talk.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Punchmaster,

I don' t think that I have ever heard it explained quite that way. I' m sure that you must have some knowledge of the organization or else you would not be posting with such authority. Just who do you represent when you blat out this information.
During the short time that I have been in the IBO I have never got that impression entirely on any of the " moaning or complaining" that I do. I may not be at the top of the popularity poll but I think that if what you are saying is entirely true than you should explain this to the IBO BOD and the President and have them back up your story. On some occassions I have seen unpopular explanations and rulings come down but I have never seen or heard a complete disregard for the entire membership. Any organization that has total lack of interest in the goals of the membership shall not last long. This organization has a twelve month agenda and a 3 Month schedule of events that to date has gone quite a ways but I will assure you that they did not do it with an attitude such as you are trying to spread.

Your enthusiasm for the Organization is overwhelming but your visions of the future make you nearsighted.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

You want me to ask the IBO to backup what I wrote? They would never do that. I' m way too politically incorrect. I' m blunt and tactless. But I ask you this. Tactlessness aside, EXACTLY what part of what I wrote has INCORRECT information in it in your opinion?

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

I apparently read Punchmaster' s post differently than some. I see nothing which would promote or suggest a disregard for the opinions of the membership on the part of the IBO. Quite the contrary. He points out that although The BOD is under no direct obligation to obtain input from their members, they choose to do so in a variety of ways. Polls have been attempted. (with less than enthusiastic results) This very forum has been established to provide for a source of input. They have established a network of State Representatives from across the country to act as a direct liason to the organization. The office staff have provided an open door policy to encourage questions and offer answers. And Ken and various Board members personally monitor this forum and provide insight into the decision process. ( at least when they are not being personally attacked.)

I have been giving this poll business a great deal of thought. You have to know that mail in polls are basically a huge waste of our resources. The cost is extreme when you factor in the 5 to 10% responce that you will recieve. AT that point the results are no more a mandate than is this forum. A survey was taken at Erie this year which saw less than a 25% return on forms handed to shooters at registration. In my mind that qualifies as less than enthusiastic. A further complication of the mail in polls is that once they are complete, no one wants to believe the results. My opinions and information presented have been questioned and dismissed recently by fastfletch simply because I' m a State Rep for the organization. With that as the guiding mindset, any possible benefit from a membership poll will largely be nullified. I have, however, come up with a possible solution to offer for discussion.

Reasonable progress demands that the BOD and IBO staff continue to function as they have been doing. However, if a given situation is such that 25% of the membership petitions for a general membership vote, then the opportunity for such a vote to occur could be provided. Concievably we could establish a yearly convention or some other venue to act as a gathering point. Due to the cost of providing such a resource, we would need pre-registration with a non-refundable fee to cover the rental of facilities adequate for the event. At that point a 2/3 majority vote could overturn a Board decision. If we are unable to obtain at least a 2/3 membership attendance, then the meeting and vote would be cancelled indicating an absentee vote in favor of the boards decision. Operating in this manner could work in several ways. First, the results would not be so quickly questioned because you were actually present for the vote. Second, the resources would only be dedicated to such an event when the membership displayed sufficient concern or interest to make it happen. At the point when a vote would be called, everyone would know that in fact a large concern was present, and not just a few disgruntled individuals beating a drum and trying to drown out the support of the quiet majority.

Please keep in mind these are just my thoughts presented for discussion purposes only at this time. As always, your thoughts, opinions, and ideas are always welcome.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

Blue Jacket,

Your thought are welcome but I will not make this personal as you did.

This may not be the answer to anything but at least it is a start to trying to make changes that will satisfy the majority of the members as well as the disgruntled one. The first thing that I would question is the State Reps be used. This would work fine but we would first have to get better representation of all the states that have members. At the present time no such thing exist. Unless this has changed in recent time 5 States have 51% of the State Reps and 45% of the states have one rep. The states of Ohio 9 reps, Mich 7 reps, Ind 7 reps, NY 5 reps, have the majority of reps and of the 50 States only 26 (give or take a couple) are represented. One of the largest bowhunting states Pa. only has one and the Vice President. The suggestion is a begining to having something different that no one can question but it must be more balanced. If the only people that are correct on here are the ones that follow the lead unquestioned than I guess that the Name INTERNATIONAL BOWHUNTING ORGANIZATION is not an organization at all. My opinions are just that as are yours and both should only have what we consider to be the best intersest of the organization in mind. I make no apoligizes for my previous suggestions and comments and welcome any one elses opinion. If you are going to make an omlet the first thing you must do is Break an egg.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

I' m sorry if you feel I in some way stepped on your toes. My point was only to demonstrate that opinions were summarily dismissed for no other reason than they showed support for the organization we choose to belong to. I know you meant nothing personal when you suggested that because I' m a Rep for the organization, the information I provide should somehow be suspect. All of that aside, let me re-ask a couple of questions.

First, ej asked earlier in this thread how we could go about conducting a poll which would see at least a 50% responce. To date they have been unable to accomplish that. Since you have stated with great certainty that there were many ways to conduct these polls successfully, and in such a way they remained indisputable, we obviously need your direction.

Secondly, please give me more direct feed back as to my proposal. I believe you indicate that the event needs to be more balanced. In what way? Generalised statements like that don' t really give me any information to work with. I' m sure you understand the mess we would create by attempting to poll the membership of every decision needing to be made. This format would allow the membership a corrective measure in the event the leadership drifted too far off course, while not needlessly complicating business as usual.

As far as State Reps go, that is obviously not a new idea. They have been in existance for a long while. Some areas are busier than others. As you are well aware, the offer has been made for anyone interested in becoming a State Rep to contact the IBO office for more information. Sometimes direct offers are made to individuals to try and solicit more help. For one reason or another those individuals willing to volenteer to serve in this capacity are limited. I often wonder how much of that hesitation to serve ties back to the first part of this post. We would all love to see increased participation in all parts of the world. The one thing we can not do, however, is to force anyone to volenteer their time in order to be chastised for supporting the sport and organization they love.

If we are talking about breakfast, I' m right there with you. Lets scramble up some eggs, get the biskets in the oven, and start frying up the bacon. However, with the exception of the eggs for that special omlete, divide and conquer is usually a tactic used with destruction in mind. I for one do not believe we need to break this organization in order to continue to try to improve.

RE: Update on Snowshoe Meeting
 

I would like to say that I' m not happy about the change from 3 to 4 days. For the avg. shooter like me, I need to spend more money and time off work to go. I think this is going to be a probelm for alot of people. I think we need to start looking for a new site to hold the event. Some place with more hotels and motels, so it would be a little cheaper to stay. I know there are places out there we just need to look. I will still be there next year but it will take alittle butt kissing at work to get off.