Left Out ?
12-08-2002 | 01:40 AM
#2
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Paducah KY USA
RE: Left Out ?
Hi Bill,
I realize your thread may be to elicit a response from "Management", But, I am going to put in my two cents worth anyhow.
Once a group of individuals, adopt as a matter of policy, rules of exclusion the same principal of exclusion may be used without thought in other area's.
I fear that is what may have happened in this case. It could be that this class doesn't produce the revenue required for full recognition of its participants. You know you were excluded, but were you discriminated against?
Bill Hayden, aka The Grey Ghost
I realize your thread may be to elicit a response from "Management", But, I am going to put in my two cents worth anyhow.
Once a group of individuals, adopt as a matter of policy, rules of exclusion the same principal of exclusion may be used without thought in other area's.
I fear that is what may have happened in this case. It could be that this class doesn't produce the revenue required for full recognition of its participants. You know you were excluded, but were you discriminated against?
Bill Hayden, aka The Grey Ghost
12-17-2002 | 11:00 AM
#6
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Paducah KY USA
RE: Left Out ?
Hi CSD,
This isn't my thread, but that never stopped me from pipping up. (grin)
Seems sort of hard to me for the I Bowhunter O, to leave the Hunter class out. Must not be any good shots in their, or folks that could represent the I Bowhunter O that well. (wicked evil grin)
Or maybe they just pay their money to shoot and don't care about the rest.
Maybe it will change, probably not.
Good luck this coming season CSD, and hope you had a good time in the woods this deer season.
gg
This isn't my thread, but that never stopped me from pipping up. (grin)
Seems sort of hard to me for the I Bowhunter O, to leave the Hunter class out. Must not be any good shots in their, or folks that could represent the I Bowhunter O that well. (wicked evil grin)
Or maybe they just pay their money to shoot and don't care about the rest.
Maybe it will change, probably not.
Good luck this coming season CSD, and hope you had a good time in the woods this deer season.
gg
12-18-2002 | 02:01 PM
#7
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
From: Vermilion OH USA
RE: Left Out ?
Hunter class limits on prize monies have been discussed ad nauseum on this board many times.
For the un-initiated, Hunter classes have been added to IBO competitions in order to provide a level of competition that is of a little more relaxed nature. The concept is to provide a place for shooters not as serious as say an MBR or MBO shooter, or the ENTRY LEVEL COMPETITOR.
That is not going to change,
The addition of Hunter Recurve is of the same nature. Perhaps the name of this class needs to be changed to Traditional Hunter as a more appropriate name. The board will have to decide that.But the class does provide an avenue for a more broad inclusion of differing styles and equiment.
Ghost, I find it becoming more than interesting that a person that has never participated, has no background in how or why decisions are or have been made and is so vocal in pronouncing the negative about so many things. What's up with that?
Also,FYI most of the board does read the forum. There are two that for one reason or another have not chosen to participate. Sometimes some of these discussions pro and or con are between them. You just do not know who they are. As the moderator,I do and I also enjoy the input from the different sides of the issues.
But they also know the number of responders on this and the other forums.Which means, that a preponderence of opinion on these forums may represent a majority opinion on any issue.But because of the very nature of the way opinions are formed through these forums it often in no way represents the opinion of the majority of IBO members.
I can tell you first hand from the phone calls and e-mails that I have recieved in the past couple weeks from IBO mambers and participants that there are some for sure, that do not agree with you.
We all have an opinion or a set of desires that reflect our own needs and wants.
Our decisions as a board that is charged with the operation and planning for the IBO are carefully considered,and reflect from each director a different set of these values. Add into that mix the recent beatings that each have suffered as a result of the previous decisions and it provides his motivation for an opinion on todays issues.
If you had been to some of the major events you could have seen this first hand. The directors are there. They work check stations,set stakes and targets,talk to the shooters and listen.
Many of them(myself included) shoot in many local type shoots. We talk to many shooters there. We get thousands of comments,suggestions,orders and directions. We have over six hundred clubs in the IBO. Making a set of traditional style classes as you suggest would have a pretty significant effect upon them. But if we can surmise the interest is there to split off another class it will be considered. But first let's see how the Recurve Hunter class(Traditional Hunter?) fares.
Any time we make a change that impacts those clubs we look at that impact carefully.
ken 12 (alias:ken watkins,IBO president)
p.s. It is International Bowhunting Organization
For the un-initiated, Hunter classes have been added to IBO competitions in order to provide a level of competition that is of a little more relaxed nature. The concept is to provide a place for shooters not as serious as say an MBR or MBO shooter, or the ENTRY LEVEL COMPETITOR.
That is not going to change,
The addition of Hunter Recurve is of the same nature. Perhaps the name of this class needs to be changed to Traditional Hunter as a more appropriate name. The board will have to decide that.But the class does provide an avenue for a more broad inclusion of differing styles and equiment.
Ghost, I find it becoming more than interesting that a person that has never participated, has no background in how or why decisions are or have been made and is so vocal in pronouncing the negative about so many things. What's up with that?
Also,FYI most of the board does read the forum. There are two that for one reason or another have not chosen to participate. Sometimes some of these discussions pro and or con are between them. You just do not know who they are. As the moderator,I do and I also enjoy the input from the different sides of the issues.
But they also know the number of responders on this and the other forums.Which means, that a preponderence of opinion on these forums may represent a majority opinion on any issue.But because of the very nature of the way opinions are formed through these forums it often in no way represents the opinion of the majority of IBO members.
I can tell you first hand from the phone calls and e-mails that I have recieved in the past couple weeks from IBO mambers and participants that there are some for sure, that do not agree with you.
We all have an opinion or a set of desires that reflect our own needs and wants.
Our decisions as a board that is charged with the operation and planning for the IBO are carefully considered,and reflect from each director a different set of these values. Add into that mix the recent beatings that each have suffered as a result of the previous decisions and it provides his motivation for an opinion on todays issues.
If you had been to some of the major events you could have seen this first hand. The directors are there. They work check stations,set stakes and targets,talk to the shooters and listen.
Many of them(myself included) shoot in many local type shoots. We talk to many shooters there. We get thousands of comments,suggestions,orders and directions. We have over six hundred clubs in the IBO. Making a set of traditional style classes as you suggest would have a pretty significant effect upon them. But if we can surmise the interest is there to split off another class it will be considered. But first let's see how the Recurve Hunter class(Traditional Hunter?) fares.
Any time we make a change that impacts those clubs we look at that impact carefully.
ken 12 (alias:ken watkins,IBO president)
p.s. It is International Bowhunting Organization
12-18-2002 | 05:33 PM
#8
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Paducah KY USA
RE: Left Out ?
Hi ken 12,
". . . a person that has never participated. . ." Sorry, but at age 68, I just took up archery and do not have decades of experience. In one year I have saved 25 scorecards, shot at 10 different ranges, in three states. I hope to increase that to maybe 15 ranges and four states this season (with or without any change in the rules.) The ranges were divided as follows: One NFAA range; one ASA range; and, the rest IBO ranges according to the rules used. I did not shoot any national level courses, cannot afford those trips. If I understand this correctly, you are a non-participant if you don’t shoot the national matches?
"Pronouncing the negative about so many things" Did you receive my letter to the IBO Board of Directors? I did make suggestions for either rule changes or a new class. If I made these suggestions in a negative manner, then I offer my sincere apology to any and all concerned. If by negative you mean I offered suggestions for change, that is true, and there is no doubt about it, I am negative. I did suggest change. I am not surprised that there are IBO members and participants that do not agree with me. Its human nature to resist change and to maintain the Status Quo
Sorry about my ignorance, I didn't know you were the IBO President from your handle.
In offering input about the present rules and proposing rules for possibly a new class, I am sure I stepped on your toes, and probably hard. Now, according to what you have suggested, I have become "persona non grata", to you and many members of the IBO, so be it.
It’s a shame that public discussion and debate as a means of exchanging ideas, opinions and input on this or any other issue is viewed as negative. I could quote from other threads, statements that tend to support my position, as well as those opposed to them.
gg
". . . a person that has never participated. . ." Sorry, but at age 68, I just took up archery and do not have decades of experience. In one year I have saved 25 scorecards, shot at 10 different ranges, in three states. I hope to increase that to maybe 15 ranges and four states this season (with or without any change in the rules.) The ranges were divided as follows: One NFAA range; one ASA range; and, the rest IBO ranges according to the rules used. I did not shoot any national level courses, cannot afford those trips. If I understand this correctly, you are a non-participant if you don’t shoot the national matches?
"Pronouncing the negative about so many things" Did you receive my letter to the IBO Board of Directors? I did make suggestions for either rule changes or a new class. If I made these suggestions in a negative manner, then I offer my sincere apology to any and all concerned. If by negative you mean I offered suggestions for change, that is true, and there is no doubt about it, I am negative. I did suggest change. I am not surprised that there are IBO members and participants that do not agree with me. Its human nature to resist change and to maintain the Status Quo
Sorry about my ignorance, I didn't know you were the IBO President from your handle.
In offering input about the present rules and proposing rules for possibly a new class, I am sure I stepped on your toes, and probably hard. Now, according to what you have suggested, I have become "persona non grata", to you and many members of the IBO, so be it.
It’s a shame that public discussion and debate as a means of exchanging ideas, opinions and input on this or any other issue is viewed as negative. I could quote from other threads, statements that tend to support my position, as well as those opposed to them.
gg
12-18-2002 | 08:18 PM
#9
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
From: Avon Lake Ohio USA
RE: Left Out ?
Grey Ghost:
I think that a possible problem that you are haveing is related to a misconception of the IBO's role at local club shoots. From previous posts I would have believed your interests lie at the national level, but you now state you do not participate in that arena. That is a shame, these major shoots are a great source for information from multiple points. There you would find all of the major venders, a broad spectrum of shooters, world class coaches, many state reps., as well as IBO directors, president, and staff. Almost all of these folks have their lives in one way or another center around bowhunting and archery in general, and most have been participating all of their lives. To insinuate or outright declare that they don't care about any facet of this sport is more than a little insulting. They have all earned more respect than that.
But back to my original point, ie ...IBO's role locally. I am currantly the president of our local club. We just happen to opperate in the proverbial backyard of the IBO office. We are proud of the fact that Ken and his wife, as well as other IBO personnel are members of our club. In addition I consider Ken and his wife to be good personnal friends. The reason I point this out is this; as close as I and our club are associated to both Ken and the IBO, I can tell you that they do not dictate how we run our club. Their insight and knowledge are invaluable to us, but at the end of the day, they need to run a international organization while I protect our local interests. Most times we will agree, but not always. Problems which you have discribed appear to me to be at the club level. Target placement is one prime example. I know there are some clubs who will always place targets at maximum yardage. The damage to the target is minimised. In my opinion this is wrong as well as being the source of over concern for the shooters. If you have a club doing this object to them. The yardage added in the traditional and recurve classes is pretty minimal. For a well set course, your average distance will probably not change by a yard or two. The possibility is there, and should be used occaisionally, but a good set will keep your average within reason. Remember though, this is a competition and should occaisionally take you outside your comfort zone. As for other classes, nationally I don't know what the best combination is. I will trust the individuals monitering the national pulse to judge that. Locally, if I only have three or four recurve/traditional shooters typically attending our shoots, it makes a lot more sence to me to have them compete against each other rather than seperate them. When we hold an IBO sanctioned shoot, we offer all available IBO classes. If it is just our normal local shoot we will reserve the right to combine classes when we feel it best serves our local membership and attendees. As for your suggestion for how to set stake distances. I will oppose that at any opportunity. As an MBO shooter my range is anywhere from 0 to 50 yards. Your suggested method just changed my need to estimate out to 50 yards to only a 25 yard game. Major scoring impact!!! As long as I have any input the stakes will be a more randomized set while maintaining maximums. When you see your white stake behind the yellow (yellow behind Green ect..) you automatically start thinking "this has got to be maximum". Sometimes we play with the short shots, sometimes we play with the long shots, sometimes we play with everyone, and sometimes its just as easy as it looks. We need you to evaluate every shot, and take nothing for face value.
I think that a possible problem that you are haveing is related to a misconception of the IBO's role at local club shoots. From previous posts I would have believed your interests lie at the national level, but you now state you do not participate in that arena. That is a shame, these major shoots are a great source for information from multiple points. There you would find all of the major venders, a broad spectrum of shooters, world class coaches, many state reps., as well as IBO directors, president, and staff. Almost all of these folks have their lives in one way or another center around bowhunting and archery in general, and most have been participating all of their lives. To insinuate or outright declare that they don't care about any facet of this sport is more than a little insulting. They have all earned more respect than that.
But back to my original point, ie ...IBO's role locally. I am currantly the president of our local club. We just happen to opperate in the proverbial backyard of the IBO office. We are proud of the fact that Ken and his wife, as well as other IBO personnel are members of our club. In addition I consider Ken and his wife to be good personnal friends. The reason I point this out is this; as close as I and our club are associated to both Ken and the IBO, I can tell you that they do not dictate how we run our club. Their insight and knowledge are invaluable to us, but at the end of the day, they need to run a international organization while I protect our local interests. Most times we will agree, but not always. Problems which you have discribed appear to me to be at the club level. Target placement is one prime example. I know there are some clubs who will always place targets at maximum yardage. The damage to the target is minimised. In my opinion this is wrong as well as being the source of over concern for the shooters. If you have a club doing this object to them. The yardage added in the traditional and recurve classes is pretty minimal. For a well set course, your average distance will probably not change by a yard or two. The possibility is there, and should be used occaisionally, but a good set will keep your average within reason. Remember though, this is a competition and should occaisionally take you outside your comfort zone. As for other classes, nationally I don't know what the best combination is. I will trust the individuals monitering the national pulse to judge that. Locally, if I only have three or four recurve/traditional shooters typically attending our shoots, it makes a lot more sence to me to have them compete against each other rather than seperate them. When we hold an IBO sanctioned shoot, we offer all available IBO classes. If it is just our normal local shoot we will reserve the right to combine classes when we feel it best serves our local membership and attendees. As for your suggestion for how to set stake distances. I will oppose that at any opportunity. As an MBO shooter my range is anywhere from 0 to 50 yards. Your suggested method just changed my need to estimate out to 50 yards to only a 25 yard game. Major scoring impact!!! As long as I have any input the stakes will be a more randomized set while maintaining maximums. When you see your white stake behind the yellow (yellow behind Green ect..) you automatically start thinking "this has got to be maximum". Sometimes we play with the short shots, sometimes we play with the long shots, sometimes we play with everyone, and sometimes its just as easy as it looks. We need you to evaluate every shot, and take nothing for face value.
12-19-2002 | 08:04 AM
#10
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
From: Vermilion OH USA
RE: Left Out ?
You cannot become persona non grata. It is going to take a lot more than this to get me mad. Many times we don't want to hear that something is wrong. But we need to hear it. That is why (from our view point) this forum exists.
I did receive your letter/proposal. It is reasonable as a request. But, changes like this are considered at the fall meeting. As the IBO shoot year goes, we are now in the middle. Qualifying events start within a couple weeks of the worlds finish. We cannot change things like this in the middle of the year.
I note that you are in Paducah Ky. Thats not too-o far from the first leg of the national championship in Southern Indiana.I would like to invite you to come up to that event and be my guest for the shoot.
Your comments ,questions and suggestions have been well thought out.
We can appreciate the consideration and the viewpoint. Come on up, meet some of the folks and I bet you will find some new friends. Probably me included. Plus, there will be at least 7 or 8 directors there.
I would like for you to meet some of the guys in the traditional classes, that do compete nationally. The only difference in any of us is who we shoot with.
You started this. Now you have to become part of the solution.
ken12
I did receive your letter/proposal. It is reasonable as a request. But, changes like this are considered at the fall meeting. As the IBO shoot year goes, we are now in the middle. Qualifying events start within a couple weeks of the worlds finish. We cannot change things like this in the middle of the year.
I note that you are in Paducah Ky. Thats not too-o far from the first leg of the national championship in Southern Indiana.I would like to invite you to come up to that event and be my guest for the shoot.
Your comments ,questions and suggestions have been well thought out.
We can appreciate the consideration and the viewpoint. Come on up, meet some of the folks and I bet you will find some new friends. Probably me included. Plus, there will be at least 7 or 8 directors there.
I would like for you to meet some of the guys in the traditional classes, that do compete nationally. The only difference in any of us is who we shoot with.
You started this. Now you have to become part of the solution.
ken12