RE: Score Keeping?
 

nys rep,

Evidently the rule that you quoted is a new rule for 2006, because it has not been in the rule book in 2004 or 2005, andI feel thatI have thoroughly read them.

I am sure that the printed edition of the rule book will be a valuable asset for all IBO competiors, but it was my assumptionthat the printed edition would match the one that is online. The edition of the online rule book states that it was revised on December 7, 2005, but maybe the rules have beenammended since then. In addition to the online rules there is a section on the IBO site that shows the changes for 2006, but I do not see the rule that you quoted there either. In the past the written rules that I have received have matched the rules that are accessible on the IBO site, as one would expect. Unless you can be certain that the rule that you have quoted is going to be in this printed rule book that is coming, I do not think it is the best of ideas for anyoneto quote a rule that can not be refrenced, for it serves only to confuse.

fasstfletch,

There is not an IBO National shoot that I have not shot in at least once in the last 4 years, soI am knowledgeable of the still helpful information that you wrote in your post. The last line that you put in your post is key.

"Have fun shooting this game and if a person is cheating or thought to be cheating it is our responsibility to point out what they seem to be doing that is not according to rules. Then we must eliminate any doubts to be fair to everyone."

On May 20, 2003, I sent an email addressed to [email protected] asking the very same question that is put forth in this thread. Thereply that I received from Ken did not answer the question (yes I still have the email). I have made a lot of effort to detemine the rule, because 4 years ago someone made known to me their suspicions of an individual's abuses. Since I have not seen a rule that addresses the situation it is kind of hard to bring it to light.

When a person always volunteers to be the score keeper and the mistakes are consitently made on his card and in his favor, then the suspicions must be considered. I have hoped for a hard fast rule that would serve as deterent, because I do not think a person's intergrity should be questioned unless their isirrefutable proof. Maybe this thread will be read and serve as that deterent.

RE: Score Keeping?
 

Someone already mentioned an idea that will help, don't mark with an X or a punch, write the score number in the column. Then if you get to the end and you wrote 10 in the 8 column, there is a very good chance the right score was10. If you just X'd it or punched it then you really don't know. It's harder to write the wrong number than to X the wrong column.

For the PGA comparison, two people score, you keep your score and 1 of the playing partners and they had better match when you are done!

RE: Score Keeping?
 

Bob H in NH,

I can see where a method of writing the number instead of punching the number could help in eliminating an unintentional mistake.

If one of the score keepers writes or punches a 10 on his score card and the other score keeper correctlypunches or writes a 5 on the duplicate score card the results will be the same. You will get to the end and find that there is a conflict, sothe higher score is awarded and 5 points is gained.

RE: Score Keeping?
 

as nys rep stated the rules are being revised hopefully to make them more understandable and easier to follow, BUT until that is finished and provided to everyone we must operate under present rules. taking the lower score may be what groups have decided among themselves but it is not a rule. as nys stated circle the wrong score and initial the changes but solving the problem of forgetting is not that easy. the suggestion of checking scores more often is probably the best one, both score keepers should have the cards in the same order and call that order each time that way you are not searching thru cards looking for the right one that is usually how a wrong card gets marked. it is not that hard to check cards while going to next target. once you leave the range an official can not really do much to solve this problem for you so keep your group together if the scorekeepers and the shooter can not come to a decision on this then it will have to be scored by the group no one else was there, no one else can help. no one other then the shooters can take score or be involved with this decision. as it is stated in the rules it is the shooters responsibility to make sure his or her score is correct.

RE: Score Keeping?
 

EJ
Thanks for your post.
I must say that I like the idea that a rule, such as was quoted by nys rep, is being added, but I have come to understand that this is a rule that was included in a package that is still under review. I also understand that this package has been tabled until the spring meeting. I am sure that much effort is involved in the review of this package and appreciate that IBO is not rushing that review process.

You wrote in your above post that we must all operate under the present rule and you specifically wrote that taking the lower score is not a rule. I think it is important to add that taking the higher score or flipping a coin is not a rule either, in fact there is no rule that addresses the issue. In saying that there is no rule addressing the issue, I should say that I have not seen such a rule in the written rules that I have referenced which includes 2003 through 2005. All of the suggestions that were given in this thread for keeping scoring on the up and up, as helpful as they are not rules either.

My understanding is that the IBO annuals will be out in the next week or so and that these annuals will include the rules that will apply for 2006. In these rules, will there be a rule that address the issue of handling conflicting scores? Will this package that is being reviewed and that has been tabled until the spring meeting contain rules that are not in the annuals that will be out in the next week or so? When is the spring meeting?

RE: Score Keeping?
 

spring meeting is in march, the rules will be discussed but it has always been policy not to change rules unless it is just wording to make it more understandable until the fall meeting becuse the shooting season for qualifiers begins right after that meeting and would not be fair to the people who have already shot a qualifier to change half way into the season.

RE: Score Keeping?
 

In no way am I trying to sell a rule change or am I an authority that can make changes. I think that there is much more involved with the original question as stated by 21st century than the exact meaning of the written word. It is necessary for any organization to have rules to act as guide lines for unforseeable problems that a group may not be able to agree on. Such rules should not be made to regulate peersonalities but to guide groups in making decisions that will be fair to everyone within that group. It may not be possible to make a rule that will cover every situatation that may arise during a competitive event involving different contestants competing for the same prize. Within a group that has two score keepers and at least one other contestant mistakes must be explained by the person making the error. If it is unclear which party made the mistake then the score of the person in question should be the higher score. IMHO. A rule that penalises a shooter for a mistake over which they have no control is not a fair rule. In a group of four shooters or more the majority, (not including the shooters score in question) should be able to make a decision as to what score is appropriate. If the contestant in question is not satisifiedthey may ask for a ruling from range officials at the end of theround or prior to signing the card. A number of circumstances can be involved with each group and the group should be the first to attempt to find a logical solution agreeable to the group in question. A rule should be made to guide all contestants when there is a question of being fair to all. Changing rules should be done when a precedant has been set that clearly demonstrates a need for such. The persons making or changing rules must have qualifications for doing such based on organizational history and involvement in practices that address the majority well being and not their personal opinions alone.

RE: Score Keeping?
 

EJ

With all efforts being made to be respectful, I have got to say that trying to get an answer to questionscan bedifficult. I will try to be an optimist and go on the assumption that it is due to a break down in my communication. I will enumerate thequestions that I asked in the above post so that the communication will be clearer on my end. If I have been unclear in the way that I have asked the question, please feel free to ask me to try and clarify.


1. In the rules that will be contained in the IBO annuals, that are expected out soon, will there be a new* rule for 2006 that addresses the issue of handling conflicting score cards?

2. Will/Does the tabled package that is going to be addressed at the spring meeting contain rules that are not going to be applicable to the 2006 shooting year?

3. When is the spring meeting? You answered in March, thank you.


* the word new was used because I have not seen an old rule. If there is an old rule could you please direct me to the section of theold rules where it can be found.

RE: Score Keeping?
 

Fastfletch,

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts in this forum/thread. With contributions such as yours it benefits all by bringing to light new ideas or compels the readers to rethink old ones.

In your post you shared your following opinions;

“If it is unclear which party made the mistake then the score of the person in question should be the higher score.” “A rule that penalizes a shooter for a mistake over which they have no control is not a fair rule.”

My knee jerk reaction after reading your above opinion is to agree. Withthe benefit of hindsight, I have to stop andconsider that the shooter who may be penalized may not even be in the group in which the mistake was made.

For example;

Since groups are not always made up of competing peers then it stands to reason that if score card conflicts are not handled in a uniform manner between all groups then a similar situation or conflict may be handled in a less beneficial manner for a competitive peer who is in a different group.

(This is what I understood you to mean when you later wrote “A rule should be made to guide all contestants when there is a question of being fair to all”.)

If someone who makes a point of always having one set of score cards in his hands and is less than a straight shooter, (not referring to how he shoots a bow and arrow), can take advantage of the fact that he knows he will be awarded a higher score. If such a person, which is described above, was to always shoot with their competitive peers or even the same group then such behavior would quickly be made obvious to everyone. The deviant behavior is less obvious when such an individual shoots in a different group of people in different shoots or even different sections of targets at the same shoot.

As you expressed, I too think that a rule change or addition should take place or at least be give strong consideration when current practices can be demonstrated as being unfair to all. Regardless to whether agreement of disagreement is shared I feel that the discusion is most important. Steel sharpens steel

RE: Score Keeping?
 

If a governing body makes new rules or considers revising established rules such considerations must be for the benefit of all concerned contestants not for a few individuals that may be trying to change an outcome of a contest using dishonest methods. On a local range or at a national shoot the governing officials must answer to the contestants when a question of a person's honesty comes up. The contestants who are dealing with such individuals should be able to solve any questionable practices and the written rule must be followed. Of the unwritten rule you are master, the written rule is master of you.

HAPPY NEW YEAR