HuntingNet.com Forums

HuntingNet.com Forums (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/)
-   Northeast (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast-26/)
-   -   Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/93142-interesting-results-aerial-survey-raystown.html)

BTBowhunter 03-07-2005 08:21 PM

Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 





Eye catching
By Bob Frye
TRIBUNE-REVIEW OUTDOORS EDITOR
Sunday, March 6, 2005

Jeff Krause hears more than occasionally from hunters who are convinced that there are no deer left on the U.S. Army Corps' Raystown Lake property in Huntingdon County.

He also encounters hunters who tell him of having seen plenty of deer every time they've gone into the woods.

So who's right? Everyone, it seems.

If there's one thing Krause -- the Corps' wildlife biologist at Raystown -- has learned from an infrared count of deer that was conducted on the property, it's that deer are not spread evenly across the landscape.

The Corps conducted an infrared survey of 20,616 acres at Raystown in November, using the same technology and the same firm -- Vision Air Research -- that's being used to count deer right now on state forests.

Raystown's fly zone was separated into two-square-mile compartments before the study was done. Deer were then counted in each compartment.

The survey revealed 1,636 deer in 518 groups. The compartment with the fewest deer had 18 per square mile, while the one with the most deer had 80. Across the entire Raystown property, the average was 52 deer per square mile, or more than double the Pennsylvania Game Commission's goal for wildlife management unit 4A.

That's a lot of deer, Krause said, though it doesn't mean hunters should expect to trip over them every time they go into the woods.

"A lot of people, in their mind, think 52 deer per square mile means a deer behind every tree, and that's not the case," Krause said. "It's a perception issue."

A square mile takes in 640 acres. Even if 52 deer were spread evenly across that land, hunters would still have to walk nearly 12.5 acres just to see one deer, Krause said.

Deer are not distributed evenly like that, though. In the compartment that had 80 deer per square mile, for example, the deer were bunched in groups, with a 300- or 400-acre section having no deer.

It's quite conceivable that a hunter could spend all day in that section of woods and not see a deer, despite the fact that there are a lot of deer overall, Krause said.

Interestingly, the heaviest concentrations of deer were found in the same areas that are most accessible to hunters. The compartment that had 80 deer per square mile is bisected by a five-mile-long road that's been kept open for the two weeks of rifle deer season every year for the last 15 years.

"We count 89 to 100 cars parked along that road every year on the first day of deer season," Krause said.

By comparison, the Terrace Mountain portion of Raystown -- which is less accessible and harder to hunt because it's so steep -- had just 28 deer per square mile.

The point is that the one thing that most determines which areas have the most deer is the available habitat, Krause said.

In conjunction with its infrared survey, Theresa Laurie of the Student Conservation Corps has been doing a study at Raystown examining the amount and kind of browse available.

Not surprisingly, the big woods areas of Raystown offered the least for deer to eat, Laurie said. The mature forest of Terrace Mountain, for example, supplies only about one eighth the browse that can be found within recent clearcuts, Laurie said.

Creating habitat is not as simple as going in and cutting more trees, though, said Krause.

"Foresters are told to look at what's on the forest floor before they cut what's above them because that's the forest that's going to grow tomorrow," Krause said.

The problem at Raystown is that, unless they're fenced out, deer are browsing back preferred species like oaks and beeches and leaving a forest of striped maple and birch. Because those species don't produce mast, cutting timber in a situation that will allow them to take over will only hurt wildlife -- including deer -- in the long run.

The key is to lower deer numbers a little bit more, so young oaks and beeches can survive long enough to grow beyond the reach of deer, then cut, Krause said. He's hoping the infrared deer counts -- another is planned for this month -- will help people understand that.

"None of us are arguing we have more deer than we've ever had. We all hunt here, and we all know deer numbers are down," Krause said. "Our message has been that you have to look at the habitat and the carrying capacity of the land."


The most curious thing I noticed was that in an area with 80 dpsm, they were all in less than half that. This is public land surveyed at a time with no human pressure. Just imagine how the numbers can get skewed even further with private land and hunter pressure involved.

No wonder hunters who aren't seeing deer think the guys who are are crazy and vice versa. sure makes you wonder......

JerseyJim 03-07-2005 08:33 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Sure they think the other is crazy! They could be hunting down the road from each other and one can see 30 deer and the other none in the same day! You know they would think the other was making it up!

wingbar 03-08-2005 06:26 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
odd that this report only mentions the survey was done in November and not dated. Also fairly obvious that the deer move from the easily accesible areas when those 80-100 cars holding hunters tramp into the woods.
odder still is who paid to have these flights done...the same group whom want no deer to eat browse in their woods (seems they forget the woods belong to every US citizen) i'd be willing to bet those DCNR boys are trophy hunters!

T_in_PA3 03-08-2005 06:30 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Man the truth hurts.

wingbar 03-08-2005 06:38 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
yeah it sure does, here I was thinking there were too many deer!

T_in_PA3 03-08-2005 07:26 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Depends on what you consider "many".

wingbar 03-08-2005 07:34 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
well if I was in the minority of hunters whom think of themselves as a trophy hunter I'd say if I see 1 hot doe with 35 rack bucks chasing her that is just about right!
But then again if I was in the majority of deer hunters here in Pa I want to see something more than tweety birds when I go deer hunting.

BTBowhunter 03-08-2005 09:04 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 

A lot of people, in their mind, think 52 deer per square mile means a deer behind every tree, and that's not the case," Krause said. "It's a perception issue."

A square mile takes in 640 acres. Even if 52 deer were spread evenly across that land, hunters would still have to walk nearly 12.5 acres just to see one deer, Krause said.
52 sounds like too many to me. Of course, I'm willing to walk 12.5 acres, maybe more:D

wingbar 03-08-2005 09:15 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
yes I'd walk 12.5 acres to see 1 deer ....as long as it is a button buck and I could blast it to pcs......yum yum button buck backstraps with fried onions--- pure 100% protein!

White-tail-deer 03-08-2005 01:09 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Where is Ulysses? Pretty soon lost horn will be here??

ulysses 03-08-2005 01:21 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Hail ! Hail ! The Gangs all here!
wingbar throw some of those straps on for your ole uncle Uly!

germain 03-08-2005 02:59 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Thanks for the article BT.
But there's a difference between the count in Raystown lake and the count they'll be conducting in Clinton county.Raystown has safe havens for the deer during hunting seasons.There's camp,parks,a resort and other private ground.
The state forest north of renova will show less deer,in fact a big difference.

BTBowhunter 03-08-2005 03:21 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
You could be right Germain. I wonder what dates Novenber they did this. If the rut was peaking that would certainly screw with the distribution of the deer.

germain 03-08-2005 06:50 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
I didn't see a date BT.I'm anxious for the clinton county count.If the numbers aren't below 15 dpsm I'll eat my camo hat.
Not until I shoot my gobbler though.:D

BTBowhunter 03-08-2005 07:01 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Want some tabasco sauce or just ketchup to go with that?;););)

germain 03-08-2005 07:14 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
I'm thinkin honey marinade.It will go better with my turkey.:D

wingbar 03-09-2005 04:28 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
best to eat turkey an not wait on a deer steak, remember the good ole days when there were few turkeys and lots of deer? Wonder how long it will be till the PGC screws them up too???????

Mark99 03-09-2005 06:01 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
How many lies have we been told? Some people will believe anything. Lets put together a list of lies from the pgc and gary alt.

wingbar 03-09-2005 06:32 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
How many lies have the PGC & Alt told us sportsmen/women???? How many stars in the sky?????? What makes it sad is those whom actually believe them know no bounds in trying to get others to swallow their lines!!

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 07:24 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
I'm waiting for some evidence of deception instead of all this hear say.

wingbar 03-09-2005 07:28 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
I'm waiting for some proof,other than what the DCNR & the PGC post as propoganda.
Guess till then I'll need to rely on what the MAJORITY of hunters in the field tell me...too few deer. EVEN the PGC has begun to open their own eyes at the prompting of state legislators whom represent the REAL field advisors...MR & MRS J. Q. Public

wingbar 03-09-2005 07:31 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Hey Unc Uly! where were you I had your BB backstrap on the Barbie lastnight now I'm 1 short...I saw a deer in my winterwheat field this AM guess I better stock up with more for "crop damage". Wingy

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 07:35 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Just what a thought, nothing but opinions.

BTBowhunter 03-09-2005 07:54 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Why would we want to go and muck things up with proof, T?;)

Better be careful, or else pretty soon we'll get a deluge of numbers from you know who!:D

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 08:07 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Wonder if he likes that new "Numbers" tv show?

wingbar 03-09-2005 08:17 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
My Heavens ..why would you wish to take the "opinions" from the MAJORITY of 1 million hunters that actually set foot into the field???????? Yes let's take it from a bunch whom never got out of their office or vehicles.
I can not help but snicker at someone whom will buy 1 oz. of $25 deer pee on the advice of a handful of "field testers" yet scoffs at this MAJORITY of field testers (500,000) known as hunters statewide.

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 08:42 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Is that the same majority that wanted AR?

wingbar 03-09-2005 09:49 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
well let us see about THAT majority...the number of hunters the PGC polled in regards to satisfaction and antler restrictions was....a grand total of 750 by their own press release! Now that's 750 out of 1 miliion plus back tag buyers, and even then the PGC did not disclose what % of that 750 were in reality connected to the PGC themselves!......hmmmmmmmm makes a true sportsman kinda think there just possibly is a skewed "poll" out there doesn't it???????
Why not have an independant company run a poll as to how many deer hunters are satified with the PGC's approach to deer management that is NOT funded by the PGC themselves? Nope that would make sense and is presicesly why some LEGISLATORS are looking into the inner operations of the PGC as I type this!
Longtime advocates of the PGC need to come to the realization this is not 1955 or 1965 or not even 1975, the enlighten sportsman of the state want answers in 2006. Rather than more excuses an shifting the blame to the sportsman themselves. the only blame sportsman should bear is WHY did we not demand the honest answers from the PGC 20 years ago.

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 11:31 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Hmm, the polled 750 you say. I bet that's way more than you have spoken too in regards to you "MAJORITY of hunters in the field tell me...too few deer".

I'll take the 750 polled to represent me over the wingbar poll any day.

Have a civil discussion if you like, but let's keep it within the rules please.

wingbar 03-09-2005 11:35 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
name calling there T in Pa3, isn't that against the posting rules? You just can not be civil can you?

BTBowhunter 03-09-2005 11:42 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Actually, the most recent poll results were from 900 respondents.

Any first year college kid in statistics 101 knows that would be an adequate sample.

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 11:48 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Name calling? Boy, you got me there. What name did I call you?

Why does this keep sounding like an elementary school playground? "Whaa, teacher! He's picking on me"

BTBowhunter 03-09-2005 11:52 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Better be careful T, I think you may have committed a TYPO!!!

Now you'll have to check into keyboard rehab!

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 11:58 AM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Oh give me a break. "R" & "T" are right next to each other on the keyboard. Maybe it was a Freudian slip?

BTBowhunter 03-09-2005 12:02 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
An easy mistake to make there R, whoops, I Mean T;)

wingbar 03-09-2005 12:10 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
TYPO, hmmm sorry but I don't see it as that. Could have been but the result is plain for any moderator to see.
BTBOWHUNTER it was 750 an is posted as so on the PGC's website. Though I agree that 900 is a valid number to poll, provided the poll is not used to support their own propoganda. Why did they not disclose how many of those 750 were either employeed by or related (spouses) to the PGC? The PGC was caught doing this before..holding meetings with a high % of volunteer DWCOs and their spouses in attendance to gain support for programs.
Like I stated earlier no company (PGC) supported thru stockholders (lisc. buyers)operates in 2005 as they did in 1965. Today the stockholders are demanding honest answers and proof of them.
I'll bet I could get 750 -900 names on a petition this week, yet for repelling AR, even closing all anterless seasons for a year or two. it would have as valid as any "poll" done by the PGC...and I'll disclose whom signed it!

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 12:13 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
The poll was done by Penn State using random phone numbers of license holders.

BTBowhunter 03-09-2005 12:32 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
Page 12 March 05 Game News....


Not sure what poll you're talking about but the most recent one was done by Responsive Management, an outside contractor in May 0f 04 and 900 hunters were polled. Only 10% dissatisfied, 79% satisfied, 11% neither.


Haven't seen the likes of USP use an outside polling co. Wonder if they're afraid of the results?

T_in_PA3 03-09-2005 12:46 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
The poll they did for AR that I refered to in my earlier post. Was done by PSU and presented at the commissioners meeting before they voted on AR. I was there! That's a fact!

wingbar 03-09-2005 01:15 PM

RE: Interesting results from an aerial survey at Raystown
 
the original poll was done by the PGC,hmmmmmmmmm must have been a TYPO!


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:01 AM.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.