Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Lisa Boscola sits on Rendell's game board I just got off the phone with her lamenting about the lack of deer. Her reply was kind of shocking, " you're just 1 of 50 calls I got today about the same thing" She recommends to contact the commissioners and go to public meetings to voice opinions. Pretty plain vanilla response as expected. Though she did mention that numerous calls that she has fielded have the same tone to them about Alt's programs that were approved by the commissioners.
she gave me a few good contacts to make an assured me with all the calls that are coming in asking for changes she and others on the panel will be taking a hard look at the program.
Who knows some good may come out of the call.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Oh Yeah, lets get Rendell cronies into deer management! They cant keep from screwing up where they do have experience[:'(] Shudder to imagine what that crowd would do to "fix" things.

Hey all you Alt supporters, lets nip this in the bud. Send Rendell a letter of support for our present management plan along with a big old Philly cheese steak and we can prevent Goof... er Gubernatorial interference!!

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Ulysses

You are an angry little man.

You should maybe line up a date with Gary Alt, I hear he's single...

JK

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

quickie; aren't there rules you agreeded to when you registered to this site?
Either act or move out of my way, if you're happy with your hunting area's deer population fine, do nothing soon enough it will be in the same shape many others are already in.
what line is it Ted Nugent uses so often? goes something along the lines.........if you don't act your part of the problem if you got something to say you'd better yell louder than me cause exerciseing my rights as an American....I never understood what the youngins saw in that burnt out rocker but he does get his voice heard can't deny that!

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

I was just havin' a little fun with ya... you don't need to fly off the handle and get all defensive.

FYI, I am happy with the current state of PA deer hunting, I do voice my opinion, and I am doing do now. I will not clamor for change when I feel that none is necessary.

Your lust for the ouster of the Alties is clearly dear to your heart. I won't bash ya for voicing your opinion and/or exercising any constitutional rights to which you may be entitled.

I have talked to just about every C.O. in my area, and commended them all on a job well done. We have discussed the Alt-bashing and I voiced my support and told 'em to hang in there... Before long, people will start seeing the results and reaping the benefits. Either that, or all the deer will be dead and gone where I live, and I will change my tune.

p.s. the rules of engagement on this site do not ban recommending romantic relationships for fellow members, nor do they preclude me from letting you know that you are, in fact, an angry little man.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Plain and simple... politics and biology don't mix.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Quickie guess you are right you have as much right to voice your feelings about deer in Pa as I do, good luck with it. I too was pro Alt at a time an have given him 5 years to see some results only to hear "give it more time and you'll begin to see results" 5 yrs is 2x longer than the average lifespan of a wild whitetail. Like I said AR & HR may be just the ticket in your WMU but what about those it isn't working in/ why hasn't Alt's words of " we'll make mistakes, won't dwell on them then move on" rung true as of yet in those WMUs???????

T in P2 game management& politics don't mix... absolutely I agree why is it then the current deer management in Pa is exactly that???????????????????

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

5 years? It hasn't been 5 years for this program yet! I believe you have another 2 years to go.

Explain the political influence in the current deer management that you think is present.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

HMMM whose bendin rules here?;)

tried to find "agreeded" in the old webster and it wasnt there. Maybe you can splain it to ignorant ol me?

Dont worry Uly, I wont whine to the moderators and you have as much right to spout as the rest of us. Even if you are mistaken;)

We can "lockhorns" if you want.... lots of people here havent heard the "legends" of the old "Buffalo Hunter";)

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Ulysses-

As a one-time Altie, you, if anyone, should understand that antler restrictions are NOT a turn-key operation. They are an introduction to a new way of thinking, as PGC is trying superimpose new QDM science over fifty years of a "more is better" mentality.

This is a new thought-process. At the start, people will go through different phases of acceptance and rebellion. They will poach, refuse to conform, fight, boycott, fret and whine. IMO, that's where we are now. People hate change.

People who have started to see the results have undergone a change in opinion. They are learning. Those who the new system has adversely affected (the big forest hunters) will take some time to come around. The forests will replenish their floors with native plant species, providing a stable food source for generations of deer in the future, and the herd will recover accordingly. It's already starting - the habitat in the Allegheny Nat'l. Forest looks better than ever. The deer were spread pretty thin, so the vast majority survived. The population will grow, and next year will be better. I am confident.

While an average deer may only live 2 1/2 yrs., we are trying to bump the average buck's lifespan into the 2 1/2 - 4 1/2 range. 3 years of AR is clearly, in my mind, far too short a timespan to blow it off as being unsuccessful. It's sorta like Reaganomics.

I just think you're making a kneejerk reaction, and it could cost us all if too many jump on the bandwagon and this plan gets scrapped.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

"Explain the political influence in the current deer management that you think is present. " Tinpa2


Tinpa2..... is this a real question or are you that far out in left field you don't know??? Can there still be some who are so in the dark that they think there is no politics in wildlife mgmt?

boscola the appointee that started this thread is a part of the Governors sportsmans advisory council. He gets his advice from these folks, THEY PICK THE COMMISSIONERS who are all political appointees. In fact it was members of Governor Ridges GSAC that lobbied to have a Pa game commissioner removed specifically because he opposed the major herd reductions proposed. Either you never read a newspaper or are just clueless. Many of the members( and former members) of the GSAC are leaders in sporting orgs like Melody Zullinger of PFSC, Ralph Saggiamo of USP, Don Heckman of nwtf, etc... and they are there just to play politics and they make no bones about it. Also members of that
council are those in the business of FORESTRY.

If you think that politics plays no part in wildlife mgmt you are out to lunch. Vern Ross WAS THE GOVERNORS SPORTSMANS ADVISOR, and he had no background what-so-ever in Wildlife Managment. He was appointed because he is a political friend of Tom Ridge. He managed a grocery store FCOL before being exec director of the PGC... it was pure politics and being a yes man on the GSAC that got him to the PGC plain and simple. And yes he hand picked Dr. Alt to put forth a more QDM managment plan in pa because that was the way other states were going. How did the money come in to finance studies and justify herd reductions. The Audubon Society through pure politics collected 1.3 million dollars in 'anonymous' donations (at least one of which was the Hienz endowments) and thru politics it was paid to PSU to do studies FOR the PGC. Talk about buying yourself studies to justify what direction you want. The studies were done AFTER the new rules were put in place. Talk about politics ruling where science had not even been done yet....

And we have been under "psuedo scientific management' for 5 years. In each of the last five Dr. Alts team took steps to change the way we do things. Earlier seasons, ML changes (in the use of thier tag), additional doe tags, ARHR, Concurrent seasons, more weapons, changes to SRA's were touted as the answer to different problems. But they all are part of the "deer plan". You can't just single out ARHR as the one thing you want to focus on. It is a comprehensive plan that started in 1999, five full seasons ago.

And the politics is all encompassing in wildlife management. State reps are regular speakers at the PGC meetings. They tout many different things for special interests. Crossbows, outfitters, farmers, deer hunters, spelunkers, turkey hunters you name it. They are politicians and they influence every aspect of our wildlife management. You will see members of the governors staff there, Reps like Staback and Smith, lobbyists from capital hill. Lobbyists for sportsmans groups. Lobbyists for manufacturers, Lobbyists for timber companies (kane collins pine etc...), lobbyists for Pa farm bureau. They are all part of the process.
Its all politics at the meetings.

Probably the biggest political influence is in the PGC's sister agency DCNR pushing its agenda on Pa deer management at the behest of thier largest customers, Big timber and tourism. Big time politics is played regularly. It is Bryon Shissler who works for DCNR that wrote Pas' forest certification which included the stipulation that in order for PA to have the largest certified forest in the country. In order to charge customers premium prices for hardwood timber, the state would have to drastically reduce its deer population. Now thats playing politics with wildlife.

Have you forgotten how just this year DCNR played politics by both withholding lands from the PGC for hunters to use. DCNR refused to cooperate on land sales to the PGC unless they INCREASED herd reductions and gave them more DMAP rules. When that hit the media DCNR backed off slightly.....then they took the ridiculas and tact of having thier biologist Merlin Benner threaten Pa sportsman with the lame threat of bringing in large predators to Pa to control deer numbers if sportsman would not (something the PGC would not have approved permits for anyway) which makes THAT HOLLOW THREATH ONE OF THE WORST examples of playing politics in PA for 2004. And no one is surprised that came from the environmental extremists of DCNR.


Surely people cannot be so dim as to think that politics is not part of Pa wildlife mgmt???? I mean really....are people that out of it?

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Science,thats a joke,Political science maybe. I really have no problem with AR's. And most of the people who support alt would like trophy buck here in Pa.Who would not?? But hey there is something missing,Genes and good food in the mountains. I had some hunters say I cant afford or my wife wont let me spend 3000 to go to ill. or iowa or where ever.Thats why they will support Alt. Again no problem with AR's ,but the doe slaughter is just to appease the timber people. Not for the hunters benefit.Again a deer ratio of 1 to 1 is good. But why kill the doe so aggressively to get the match?? Why not bring the buck herd up to the doe level instead of the doe level down to the buck ?? Why cause it is cheaper for the PGC to do so.And Basically after living in 4 big buck states we as hunters in Pa are some of the cheapest hunters I ever seen. They think their contribution is kill and buy a few tags.Just ask them to help contribute some of their money to enhance the food sources and they run and hide behind Moms skirt. For pete sake nothing is a free ride.I got permission from a land owner to plant 7 acres of good food plots next year. And the property is next to a federal park that is loaded with deer I mean 10 deer for every acre. The food plot would draw a hunting paradise in our grasp. Who wants to put in 500 a piece to do it ?? thats the question I took to some hunters that hunt around here.You Know what they stumbled and said the hell with that I will find some other way.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Anyone who has heard Alt knows that he readily admits that politics from all angles, IE hunters, farmers, timber co.s etc etc are a very big part of this.

The trick he's trying to pull off is to balance all the factors involved. That will never completely satisfy any of the interests involved. Keeping the resource as the first priority is the one way to not let one political faction or another win to the detriment of all others.

We as hunters will need to settle for less deer. Loggers and farmers will have to settle for more deer than they think is ideal. Our benefit is a healthier herd and better but yes less bucks. The folks who own most of the habitat and feed and shelter these deer will still have to put up with more deer than theyd like. They say a good compromise is when no one walks away completely satisfied.

Quicksilver,

Ulysses has been around a long time under many other names and has always been an Alt obstructionist. He might have been an Altie when Gary was the bear guy but not since.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

If anybody wants to borrow a set of gloves, all ya have to do is ask....It's gettin a little chippy in here........[>:]

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

T in Pa heck it's been longer than 5 yrs not all under Alt I agree we had bonus tags back in the 80s.
and if you don't see how politics have shaped the current deer management in Pa from pressure of the timber companies, farmers, etc. I sure won't be able to show you!

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

put those gloves away moosehorn if we can't argue among ourselves about the PGC then things have really gotten bad! I may not share some of the views some of these guys have but there's none I wouldn't share a deer camp with, besides it's almost Christmas ( and I still say MERRY CHRISTMAS)
Hey BT Bwhntr I'm thinking of a cool signature like you have, how about this one....kill a little buck let a big doe have twins:D

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

I agree politics do play a roll in areas but justification in deer management, what this topic is about, is biological. It would be political if changes are made that go against sound biological management just because we cry loud enough.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

If you think the influence of the timber industry, the DCNR and the Audubon Soc. is not political you are living in fantasyland. And, that is why the hunters have to use the poitical route to counteract their influence.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

like I said earlier someone got a better idea to stop the doe slaughter in your area go for it, me I'm doing what I can for mine. besides posting my property and getting my neighbors to post which we all did in 2004 I'm pulling all the stops out.
So either join up or get out of the way! Call Boscola, call commissioners write a letter or two (it won't kill you).
BTW you'll get a kick out of the standard reply to a email set via the PGC website contacts. I wrote 7 of them from 7 different 'puters and got 1 answer to all 7 " thank you for your comments I will forward them to the board "

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

let me ask this question to all you "Alties" out there: when you see land getting posted up and approach the landowner asking for permission. what do you think of Alt's agenda when you hear " I posted because too many doe are being shot" or "my property is over run with hunters since the gamelands is now shot out of deer"
those are the answers we in Hector Twsp are now giving hunters whom knock on the door an ask for permission.
Hard to put the blame anywhere else other than Alt

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

BTBOWHUNTER just for you

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Dude your rants are really starting to get annoying! All I am starting to hear from you is BLA, BLA, BLA, BLA BLA.

Enough is enough. AR is here to stay, the majority of us favor it so get over it and spend your time huntin instead on the puter!

How bout it BT!

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Sounds good Illbback but we got two weeks till we can hunt again.

Besides, Ol Terry lockhorns, legend, buffalo hunter, etc etc etc;) seems to have decided to be a bit more of a gentleman about it this time around.

It is his right to voice his opinion. Since he seems to want to behave, maybe we can bring him into the 21st century........NAW!!!!;)

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

What proof do you have that AR is here to stay? AR has been repealed in more states where it was implemented than where it exists today and there is only one state where it is still in effect after 10 years of AR and that state is Miss. Every other state that implement AR statewide has repealed it with the exception of Ark. where they had to close the anterless season in some areas to produce a adequate buck harvest.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Please tell us why Missouri has just implemented AR if it's such a failure?

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

And how did you determine that?
Further, what ulysses, and many others, are upset about, is not AR, but HR. We need to separate the two.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Because Ar is the latest fad in deer management and deer mangers insist on repeating the same mistakes of other states.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Yup its just a fad!
These guys do this for a living and could jeapordize their government jobs and all the perks if they're wrong but, what the hey, its the fad, lets go with it.

Guess theyre just plain stupid! After all, a few self proclaimed internet experts will surely prove them wrong if they can just crunch the numbers right!

I spose those biologists are probably sportin baggy jeans,drivin turbocharged civics, wearing spiked purple hair and pierced eyebrows too. Just another fad!

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Cardeer, where are you plant'in those food plots?

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Where are all these states where AR has been repealed. AR has been repealed and/or modified in particular regions of states where it has been enacted.


AR and QDM are here to stay forever more, until death do us part. This will not be some passing fad. We all need to come to grips with the future of deer management in every state. Get a life and stop moning about Alt and go hunting. The old days of huge deer density in PA(scrawny deer at that) are fast coming to an end. That's not all a bad thing. Maybe it needs tweeking. Stop whining.

Is all this AR and QDM political - Hell no - Give me a break. Is some of AR and QDM political - Hek yes! That's a no brainer. Read the paper,talk to farmers,suburaban residents,developement everwhere,deer collisions,deer ratio and overall health,walk thru your favorite woods. See what decades of massive deer herds has done.

We've all read AR/QDM related subjects and figures claimed to be accurate slung all over this thread. I for one suspect or know much of these supposed facts and figures are nuttin but pure Cow Dung - pure and simple.

If your gonna post numbers,state your source or at least state you believe,approx,I think or heard etc... make it accurate.

We are all Hunters. We come here to read and expect accurate information.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

I agree that AR are here to stay, but the herd reduction is not and will be modified once the PGC gets the herd to a reasonable number. Yes, the timber industry has a hand in all this but so does the future of all of our hunting grounds that support the deer or other wildlife we hunt. There will never be the numbers of deer there used to be, but if we continue not to manage the deer population there will be even less deer because all the forest will be bare and there won't be enough quality feed to sustain them. Smaller DMU's, I believe, are on the way but we have to do our job first.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

deer902 this last post of yours reads like you are quoting from the Alt handbook. Might be the case around P'burg with deer pops. but not statewide open your eyes.
I too am in favor of AR I even favor taking them a step further with NO spikes or Ys killed by ANYONE at any time. Heck I'd love to see antlered deer hunting be put on a draw basis by WMU.
It is the continued HR in in some WMUs that I find fault with. Sadly it will be a long time before addresses this issue because of his POLITICS trying to keep his big $ state job this close to his big $ pension.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Oregon,CA., Nev. Utah, Mont. Colo. and WMU 118 in Mi.


The stats I post for PA are PGC stats. Most are available on the PGC web site in the annual reports. You should try reading them sometime.


If HR continues as scheduled . IMHO AR will be repealed in PA by 2010. By then buck harvests will be under 100K /year and more hunters will realize that AR actually reduces the number of legal buck available to be harvested.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Landscape Architects:
Deer Are Designing
Future Look of Forests

December 1, 2004; Page A1

MILLERTON, N.Y. -- The deer rose out of a distant swamp before dawn to browse in a hay field on a recent day. Then, as the sun came up, they made their way into a hillside forest, looking for concealment.

But the forest offered few hiding places. It has lots of tall, mature conifers and hardwoods, some 100 years old. Under them, virtually nothing grows -- no seedlings, no saplings, no bushes, and only a few ferns. The floor of this forest, like others around the country, has been stripped clean by whitetail deer.

It's deer-hunting season across the land -- a time when Americans are reminded that bountiful whitetails have their costs. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety said earlier this month that animal-vehicle crashes, mostly involving deer, killed more than 200 people last year and caused an estimated $1 billion-plus in property damage. The U.S. Department of Agriculture says deer cause more than $400 million in yearly crop damage, not including home gardens and ornamental shrubbery.

But below the radar of most people, whitetails have been eating their way toward a more lasting legacy: They are wreaking ecological havoc in forests across the nation. They have become de facto forest managers, determining today what many forests will look like 100 years from now, say forest experts.

"Deer have stopped the regeneration of our forests in many areas," says Peter Pinchot, a Yale-educated director of the 1,400-acre Milford Experimental Forest on the Poconos Plateau in Pennsylvania. That means little trees aren't growing up to eventually replace big trees.

Example: oaks. Deer love acorns. Surviving acorns sprout seedlings. Deer love them, too. Surviving seedlings become saplings. Deer strip them of leaves and bark. They die. Result: no young oaks. Deer also love hickory and white ash, and eschew black birch, American beech and black locust. If they get hungry enough, they'll eat almost anything, and their victims aren't just trees.


The ground-level vegetation of the forest "has been severely degraded by over-browsing in many regions, eradicating critical habitat for many plants and birds," Mr. Pinchot says.

Gary Alt, Pennsylvania's chief deer biologist, says that allowing deer to multiply beyond the point where forests can replenish themselves, "has been the biggest mistake in the history of wildlife management." He calls it "malpractice."

Ironically, it was Mr. Pinchot's grandfather, Gifford Pinchot, who helped bring back whitetail deer a century ago. As the first director of the U.S. Forest Service, he helped pioneer a conservation movement to save forests and restore species of birds and animals all but wiped out by commercial hunters. When he took over the job in 1898, the whitetail population was no more than 500,000 nationwide.

Pennsylvania had fewer than 600 deer. Restocking began in 1906 with deer brought in by rail from Wisconsin, Michigan and West Virginia. With hunting restrictions, the herd grew back quickly. By 1917, Pennsylvania was the too-many-deer poster boy. Hunters loved it. Foresters hated it. Today, Pennsylvania has an estimated 1.6 million whitetails.

"If Gifford Pinchot could see what deer have done to our forests, he'd roll over in his grave," says Bryon P. Shissler, a wildlife biologist in Pennsylvania who consults on deer issues.

Nationally, whitetail population estimates range from 20 million to 33 million -- more than when Columbus arrived five centuries ago, wildlife historians believe. That's way too many deer to allow forests to regain their health and diversity, says Peter Pinchot.

"You walk through the woods of central Wisconsin, where I live, look at the understory and there's nothing there," says Robert Wegner, a historian who has written a dozen books on deer and deer-hunting.

Not only is the deer population out of control, the management model of control "is broken," he says. "Deer density is increasing. Hunter density is decreasing. Hunters are aging -- we're losing 75,000 a year. Mentors [to recruit young hunters] are going. We're pretty much headed for a train wreck."

Animal-rights groups such as the Washington, D.C.-based Fund for Animals applaud hunting's decline. That group wants hunting outlawed, and advocates non-lethal methods, such as birth control, to decrease deer overpopulations. But birth control, so far, doesn't really work, say most wildlife managers.

A general rule of thumb among deer biologists is that hunters need to kill 35% to 45% of the females annually to stabilize the population. But in most places, they aren't killing even half that percentage, according to state tallies.

Who's to blame for the whitetail population boom? Hunters, mainly. But, increasingly, non-hunters and anti-hunters are sharing the blame.

For decades, says Mr. Alt, the Pennsylvania biologist, vocal hunters have pressured state wildlife managers to maximize deer populations. Many still do. State wildlife agencies, which collect income from the sale of hunting licenses, obliged by restricting hunting-season lengths and the number of deer a hunter could kill.

By the 1930s, most states had adopted rules banning the killing of does. Bucks are serial breeders, so more females mean more fawns and a bigger herd. These so-called buck laws became a part of the deer-hunter creed.

Now states are pushing doe killing to create smaller, healthier herds, but many older hunters are loath to kill females. When Pennsylvania put more than a million doe-killing permits up for sale this year, one group of hunters, the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, launched a "Stop the Slaughter" boycott. Doe killing, they argue, is causing deer shortages -- a notion the state disputes.

In recent years, states have lengthened hunting seasons, increased the number of deer each hunter can kill and made it easier to get "nuisance" permits, which allow farmers to kill deer causing damage anytime. Southern South Carolina's lengthened season, for example, opens on Aug. 15 and closes Jan. 1. Hunters can kill as many bucks as they want, and doe permits are easy to get. Still, by most accounts, the state's whitetail population is growing.

Several states make hunters "earn a buck" -- meaning they have to kill a doe before they are able to kill a buck. And they can essentially buy as many deer-killing permits as they want. But most hunters hunt for meat, says Mr. Wegner, and once the freezer's full, their incentive wanes. Selling wild game is illegal. Programs in which hunters donate deer to food pantries for the needy have expanded, but not enough, he says.

Many of those who live in the forested sprawl tend to be relative newcomers to the countryside, second or third-generation suburbanites who now own hobby farms, weekend homes, or houses in developments in once-rural areas. Some believe hunting is unsafe or inhumane, and post "No Hunting" signs on their property or push local governments to adopt anti-hunting regulations. This turns large patches of the landscape into deer sanctuaries. Deer love exurbs, where forest meets garden, with no predators and delicious ornamental shrubbery.

"They know where the safety zone is," says Mr. Pinchot. Some studies show that in deep forest, coyotes and bears kill half the fawns, he says. But man has long been the deer's chief predator. With exurban sprawl, a big threat now is likely to be the family SUV.

Depending on the landscape, deer densities of 10 to 15 per square mile can harm wildflowers and nesting birds, according to Audubon Pennsylvania, a conservation group. Tree regeneration may be possible at densities of 18 to 20 per square mile, it says. But in many parts of Pennsylvania, and across the nation, whitetail densities can exceed 70 per square mile.

Concerned about bird species being threatened because deer are eating their habitat, an Audubon center in Greenwich, Conn., invited in bow hunters last year. Worried about its forest damage, Illinois has opened 10 of its 319 nature preserves to deer hunting.

For 50 years, until 1991, the forest around Quabbin Reservoir in western Massachusetts was a 58,000-acre sanctuary: no hunting. Deer populations grew to 70 per square mile. Nothing much grew below the trees.

"It looked like the Serengeti Plain, with herds of deer running around like antelopes," says David Kittredge, a forester at the University of Massachusetts. The forest ecology around the reservoir was so degraded that the drinking water of 2.5 million residents was deemed to be at risk.

Hunters killed 575 deer around the reservoir in the initial 1991 hunt, and annual hunts since have brought the deer herd down to 10 to 12 per square mile. The forest understory made a comeback. Deer still eat some seedlings but not enough to thwart regeneration. Quabbin became a deer-management model adopted by many nature preserves.

Michael S. Scheibel, natural-resources manager at the 2,039-acre Mashomack Preserve, on Shelter Island in New York, is trying to protect one of the last oak-hickory and oak-beech forests on the Atlantic coast from deer. The preserve has been owned by the Nature Conservancy since 1980. Each January, hunters kill 100 to 150 whitetails. But after five years, he's seeing "very little, if any, forest regeneration."

One problem is that deer swim freely to Shelter Island from nearby Long Island, a giant suburb full of lush habitat, and anti-hunting zones. North Haven, an exclusive village on Long Island, declared a "deer emergency" in 1997, and since then residents have put up enough eight-foot-high wire-mesh fences to make some neighborhoods look like prison camps.

Mr. Scheibel, who manages the Mashomack Preserve, is thinking about other options: applying for nuisance permits to cull more deer, for starters. "I really feel that with traditional hunting we're not able to control the herd," he says.

Increasingly, professional hunting teams are hired to kill deer at taxpayer expense. This usually happens after battles between local factions for and against killing deer. "Market hunting is still taboo, but we talk about it," says Mr. Shissler, the wildlife biologist and consultant. Market hunting -- allowing commercial deer-killing and the sale of wild venison -- has been outlawed since early in the last century.

Write to James P. Sterba at [email protected]

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Ulysses, I do hunt in other areas where the population has gone down. Our family camp is in Potter county and all I hear is whining from them that there isn't any deer left. Only 10 years ago I saw a herd of 30 deer come past my stand. There wasn't one single buck in the group. Everyone saw 20+ deer everyday, but rarely was a buck ever taken and if one was shot it wasn't worth bragging about. These last couple of years we have only seen 3 or 4 deer a day but atleast one of them is a decent buck(for Potter county) I also hunt in Armstrong county which is still over run by deer but the population has definately been reduced. As for Allegheny county we always will have too many deer. They all run to the housing developments when the orange army hits the woods. All I can do is hope and believe Alt knows what he is doing. I don't have the credentials that he does and I don't think anyone here does either. I don't want to stop now and turn around to the same way it used to be where guys would shoot the first spike that walked in front of them. Let the system run its course and let Alt make adjustments as he sees fit, I don't think we'll be dissapointed in the end.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

deer902 you hit it right on. we can't expect anyone to fix decades of mismanagement overnight. It will take trial and, yes, error to fix things right.

As I've said many times, I would rather trust a professional to get us out of the mess we're in. Politics will always be a force. I'm just glad that professional biologists are ther to help derail pure politics and greed.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

Ask any old timer how often our PA forests used to burn and then observe how little they burn now. Then ask yourself if the deer or the lack of fire is to blame for our forest's lack of regeneration.

It seems to me that other environmental effects aren't being considered in the forest study.

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

well if you weren't getting nice bucks in potter co while seeing 50 deer a day then it was no one's fault but yours. Everyone I know around town has killed many nice 8,10, and occasionally a 12 pt over the last 50 yrs or so. sure we killed our share of spike too but never whined about it. No one I hunt with EVER killed a deer they weren't proud of an thankful for too!
1 other thing I don't understand about your post....your not wanting to go back to hunters killing the 1st spike that walked up to them....that choice is each hunter's to make not somebody who is only happy killing rack bucks to make for them... weren't you the one that said if you have the tags then who has the right to say you shouldn't fill them all?.....kinda walking pretty close to the edge there aren't you?

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

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The stats I post for PA are PGC stats. Most are available on the PGC web site in the annual reports. You should try reading them sometime.

[/quote]


Stats are what your so worried about.
Ever stop to think that like the NEWS they just put in the numbers they want not the real ones.
If you belive everything you read god help us....................

RE: Ok just spoke with Pa's Boscola about deer
 

The problem with shooting the first spike that walks by is that most of those hunters pass on doe to shoot the buck. The problem in PA is that guys think that a spike or forkhorn buck is better than a doe. You have to maintain the deer population by shooting the doe and that's why AR was put into place. Alt sold the HR program by showing bigger racks, but the main reason is HR. So we can have a smaller healthier herd and let our forest regenerate. And how is it my fault that no one saw a decent buck at our camp?