PA BB Harvests
 

Here is a little known fact that you will never be revealed by the PGC. We are now harvesting a higher percentage of our buck as BB than ever before!

In 1999,before Alt was appointed, 18% of the male deer harvested were BB. In 2002 25% of the males harvested were BB and in 2003 it increased to 27%, even though we decreased the percentage of fawns in the anterless harvest from 46% to 39%. So, while AR increased the harvest of 2.5+ buck by 17%, it decreased the antlered buck harvest by 30% and increased the number of males harvested as BB by 9%.

Also, although the PGC has not released any current data ,prior to AR ,3 % of the anterless harvest were adult buck that had lost their racks. That stat was when the anterless harvest occurred after the antlered season and 80% of the antlered deer had been removed from the herd. Now that AR protects more buck , more of those buck will be harvested as anterless deer in the late ML season and in SRA counties where rifles can be used in the late season.

Those are some of the reasons why the 2003 harvest was much lower than expected and why future buck harvests will remain far below the harvests of 2000 and 2001.Back to top

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Dont forget the few (thank god) greedy, inconsiderate nimrods who either kill BB's intentionally or are such lousy hunters that they can't outwit a mature doe! [:'(]

I've heard that type kills as much as 83% BB's[:'(]

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

And don't forget that because more hunters passed on fawns in 2003 the anterless harvest decreased by 30K and after 4 years of Alt management we have had zero,herd reduction even though that was the primary goal of Alt's plan.

Now just what did Alt do to encourage herd reduction ? Well for the first time he created a protectected class of deer by implementing Ar which prevent 38K buck from being harvested in 2002 . In addition, he ask hunters not to shoot small deer, which if every hunter followed that advice, would remove 46% of the anterless deer from the harvest. In other words he screwed up royaly by protecting more deer from being harvested even though the antrless season was increased by 400% and we have an all time record of over 1M anterless tags being issued.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

And don't forget, don't kill all the BB this year or you will see no bucks on your land for yet another year!

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

They can't prevent the 20 to 24% of antlered deer being shot with the antlerless harvest. No state has, the more emphasis ya' put on antlerless harvest the more antlered deer you take in the form of BB or mature buck that have lost thier antlers in the latest part of the season.

Just a fact of deer hunting. You can pretend it won't happen, you can close your eyes and wish for no BB to get whacked, but it will happen a percentage of the time. And it is showing in pa's last few dropping buck harvests. ;) Of course this was known up front by biologists and was studied in many states before pa ever dreamed up its mediocre plan to reduce the herd. Ok, Ok.... lousy plan.

For a state that was supposedly on the verge of a habitat collapse (?) it sure seems funny our deer plan by our esteemed deer team has done nothing to reduce the herd one bit. A failure on habitat restoration.

And dropping buck harvests, as well as doe, means its failing to meet up to what was promised with 'more and bigger bucks' also.

Take those two failures and stack on top the fact that DCNR and the PGC have misled hunters on the use of DMAP and you have a deer management agenda that has not met up to expectations.

I think it will truly hit a new low when the PGC proposes to placate DCNR with a new rifle season in archery and muzzleloader in state forests. That will really cap a 5 year period that will define a new low for deer management in pa.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Shooting a BB happens,but can be avoided most the time if the hunter would take sometime and learn the way to ID a button and stop shooting at a running deer and act like they are playing a video game. In bow season I feel there aint no excuse to shoot a BB by mistake. At that close range it easy to see what it is. And usually a small deer alone and very curious and acting stupis is usually always a button.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Shooting BB cannot be avoided while reducing the herd by 50%. In 2003 hunnters decreased the harvest of fawns by 38K and as a result the anterless harvest dropped by 30K and therefore there was no reduction in the herd after 4 years of Alt's plan. There is no way we can protect 45% of the anterless population and still get the herd reduction Alt claims is necesssary.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

I'm having de'ja vu....all over again twice.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Not sure where all you folks hunt, but I just came back from Potter county and the deer herd is DRASTICALLY lowered over several years ago. Where I hunt is all public land so that may make a difference.

I have been going to this spot for 7 years now with two friends. When we started, before AR started, it was normal to see deer on every time in the woods, usually several and it was VERY common to have groups of doe come by. The three of us always each took a deer.

This year, was the second "poor" year in a row. However I saw my first ever buck in the woods and shot it a little 8 point, he was with a 3 and a 4 point, 4 pt was actually the biggest). One guy went home empty for the second year in a row, third guy shot a doe.

We routinely go out spotting at night and make about a 30-40 minute loop, when we started doing this, going past several fields and gas lines in the woods, a bad night would turn up only 50-100 deer. this year we did it, and saw a total of 7 deer one night, 9 the next.

At least in this area the herd is WAY down, but buck sightings are up.

--Bob

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

give me the http to the website you got you data. My understanding that in the first year of new antlerless regulations that the BB take of antlerless deer went from 60% of the antlerless deer taken to 16% in the first year.
Again let's have link to your numbers

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

60% ????????

Maybe we better have a link to 'you' numbers....?:D

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Bob, I would believe that you are seeing less. Most people I talk to say the same thing. But the PGC has said repeatedly they have not reduced pa's herd by one deer since they started the 'plan'. They claim they merely stabilized it at 1.6 mil.
Now there is nobody I know that believes it, but that is the line they have taken and as hunters we have only what they publish to go on....

We look at thier harvest numbers, thier forecasts and thier data to draw conclusions. So what we are being told is the herd is bigger than ever in pa by the official PGC team. Now if your experience does not jive with that, then you are probably like many other pa hunters, but be that as it may....we have only thier word to go on. :eek:

So after 5 years of trying they have not reduced the herd by one deer, they have managed to drop the harvest of bucks by 30% and doe harvests dropped the last two years. Yet "the herd is as big as ever"? And this is with more liberal seasons and weapons use, the harvests dropped?

So......

Could it be that the herd really is being reduced a slight 3-5% each year for the last 3? PGC says no, bigger than ever. Could the slightly reduced herd size account for the slightly reduced harvests? PGC says no, its windy weather.

Could it be the PGC wants to portray the picture that the herd is bigger than ever so that hunters won't slack off on thier zest for overharvest which is what is needed for continuing to reduce the herd? I guess you will have to decide that one for yourself!


One thing is for sure, around 20% of the antlerless harvest this season will be buck. Just like the sun will come up in the morning.

If we truly want the reductions that the PGC says we need then someone has to start shooting anything that moves. If the last 3 seasons didn't drop the herd size by one bit....then you better start shooting anything that moves...and some!

Save the habitat and our ecosystem!

Take away the hype of our deer plan and what do you have left? A plan that calls for herd reductions and a team that has not delivered on that plan.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

On page 70 of the Hunting Digest the PGC states the normally the harvest contains 54% adult doe and 46% fawns. In 2003 it changed to 61% adult doe and 39% fawns. A WCO from Elhk Co posted the official totals on another MB ,but the post has since been deleted.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

This is the most beaten dead horse I've ever seen.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Were you planning on going for a ride on this dead horse? If not, why do you care that we are talking about it?

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Rybo, lets bury it before it stinks up the place.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

you can try to bury it, and hide it away... but its an issue that doesn't go away just because you wish it would. It was known up front by the deer team that increasing pressure on the antlerless population meant more BB would be harvested along side.

Like you, many chose then to ignore that fact, and just stare longingly at he big rack Gary was waving in the high school gymnasium (ad nauseum btw). And now we merely remind you what was know from the beginning, that the shock and awe would not be there with AR combined with HR. (Pike, we still thank you for that thread).

For dropping our buck harvests 61000 since AR started...all we got were a few holdover buck that might be an 8 point now instead of a 7 point. Maybe a few more tens only in areas of good habitat.

Now there is a stat that many would like to bury. Three straight years of declining harvests. That means this year there will be more competition for the fewer deer in the smaller herd. IMO that means we may see more folks pulling the trigger quicker because they aren't seeing as many deer overall. And when they walk up and see a BB they will have comfort in knowing that 20% of all the hunters who take antlerless take a buck.

You just can't tap dance around that one. Kip Adams tries, Gary tries, John Ozoga tries but it don't go away.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

That was not even a big rack he was waving LOL ,to boot it was not even shot where any of us could hunt. The whole BB problem can be solved by we the hunter only.By educating ourselves to ID a button ,then following thru and restraining from shooting it.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

I admit I got my numbers wrong , I posted off the top of my head. The 60% was the increase to which adult females where taken compared to 54%. The numbers where bb went from 46% of antlerless harvest to 39%. A 13% DROP IN BB HARVESTEDin 2003,not an increase, Page 70. Pa. Hunting Digest. I also know there was a similar drop in the other years of AR.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Fingers will always point in the right direction eventually. And for the record, I have NEVER shot a BB.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

No one said the percentage of BB in the anterless harvest increased. What I said was the percentage of our males that were harvested as BB increased. Futhermore, The BB harvests during the two years of AR were the highest ever recorded.

1999--43.2K
2000--66.0K
2001--62.4K
2002--77.5K
2003--68.4K

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Rybo is right. This is a dead horse.

The only thing that stinks worse than this dead horse is the flaming hypocracy of DD continuing to complain about a problem he seems proud to have contributed to.[:'(][:'(][:'(]

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

I am not complaining about shooting BB. On the contrary , I encourage anyone that believes in herd reduction to harvest any legal deer they have the opportunity to harvest.

What I am trying to do is educated the misguided and uninformed that think we can prevent the decrease in the buck harvests by passing on BB,when all that does is delay the adverse effects of herd reduction by one year while at the same time it accelerates the decline in the buck harvests in the long run. For example, in 2003 we harvested 9 K fewer BB, but we harvested more than 22.6K adult doe , because we harvested a higher percentage of adult doe than we normally would. The average adult doe produces 1.67 embryos so the loss of 22.6 K adult doe decreases the number of fawns produced the following year by about 40K. If half of the fawns are BB ,saving 9K BB in 2003 resulted in 20K fewer BB born in 2004.

Now if we had reduced the herd by 5 % as called for by Alt's plan we would have removed another 55K adult does we would have reduced the number of fawns produced by another 96K ,which would mean a futher decrease of 48K BB. Therefore ,saving BB is not the solution to declining buck harvests.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

my, my they do get upset when you point out foibles in the plan. Don't they DD?


If this is a dead horse why are so many Alties responding? I don't think its a dead horse. I think its a dead fly, in the ointment.

Alties can't figure out why there wasn't any 'shock and awe' in these first years of change? Dumbfounded that there aren't skads more deer. Many don't like math, they do not want to hear that 3+5 is not 13. Many cannot comprehend that less deer = less deer.

Memory loss appears to be a problem among them too, they quickly remember AR, but most often forget HR is happening too. And with HR comes less deer, less opportunity, and less satisfaction.....

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

I've been listening to all of the supposed "facts" and mumbo-jumbo about doe numbers, BB numbers, "increased" this, that, and the other, but I can tell you one thing----

The ONLY thing that matters to me where I hunt in PA is sightings from stand and THOSE numbers, and I can easily and safely say that deer hunting in PA has turned to squat in the past few years, at least where my crew hunts. (4D) We go there to SEE numerous deer, and to bring home meat. If we want a true trophy, we go to IL or KS. PA IMHO will never be the type of trophy-laden country that the midwest is, and I personally feel we are decimating the herd in PA for little more than the insurance companies and burecrats' wishes. We keep a logbook at camp of number of deer taken, number of deer sighted from stand each day, and number of deer spotlighted at night, and altho there may be one or two large bucks within the areas we hunt that may have survived from last year, deer as a whole are all but extinct in our area, numbers virtually one 20th of what they were a decade ago. Where we used to all tag-out 10 years ago and have many fun and sometime tall stories to tell, we now seem to all go home with nothing, or maybe an occasional doe to split up amongst the entire group. We pound the swamps, bogs, deep woods, croplands, you name it, and even with a great nut crop this year have been skunked two years in a row now. Sucks is the best way I can describe it.

We spoke with some of the local hunters and some do not even bother to buy tags anymore! We will not be going back anytime soon either, just isn't worth it to drive 8 hrs+ and see maybe a group of 5 deer over the course of a week from stand, especially when we used to see over 100 with no problem.

So, everyone can gripe about BB and whatnot, but the issue carries alot deeper than simply worrying about BB. You cannot eradicate the deer herd to the point of extinction in PA and expect it to stay healthy, no more than you can eliminate the "mistake kills" that allow guys to bag a lesser illegal deer without much worry about anything except paying the warden $25.(saw this happen with a local this year, and it was if nothing was a big deal) Or worse yet, those guys who shoot anything that moves and then worry about whether or not it is legal afterwards, and if not leave it lay. I'm all for helping to increase the big buck population, but you simply cannot wipe out the rest of the herd and think it is going to be fine in the future. JMHO, Pinwheel 12

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

BB are just an indicator of bigger issues. Not really biological issues, but education issues. The PGC knew in 1999 from other states like Ark and Miss. that when you put an push on antlerless harvests you take additional BB to the zip lock heaven. Yet they played down the effects, lust like they are playing down the actual herd reduction in pa (after 5 years of changes they 'claim' that we have not reduced one single deer)??

Rack waving was blinding some hunters who just heard the AR part, but forgot its weird cousin HR. We have been reducing he herd the last three seasons, but the PGC would like to mislead hunters one or two more years to take a real good bite out of our numbers. It might have been worth it had it produced any decent bucks.... but it hasn't.

3 straight years of declining buck harvests are turning hunters away, ESPECIALLY from 4d. (just curious if you were in state forest in 4d? where?)

So yes, the herd is dropping, buck harvests are down, there is no measureable difference in deer size, the habitat is still poor and over all the results have not been 'shock and awe' but mediocre at best. Driving away hunters at worst.

If you think it is poor now, wait until we get more herd reduction this year. You really will be hunting elsewhere after this season.

a lot of camps will sit empty in 4d this year. And it because of one thing as you pointed out in your post. Because hunters are having less success and the harvest is down.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

chickory-

I agree with your post completely, some just cannot see the forest for the trees it seems, but HR is to the point of no return in the areas we hunt from what I have seen this year. It will take at least 5-10 years to bring the numbers back IF we were to stop everything NOW, nevermind turn loose another round of eradication once the larger numbers of rifle hunters hit the woods in a few weeks. I fear it is all but gone to be honest, at least for our generation....

We hunt in the Black Moshannon Area of Centre County as well as down off the mountain in Julian, Unionville, and Martha's Furnace, and another area over towards Kylertown. Some State Forest land, some private, both hard to find any decent numbers of deer in now, and few "large bucks" survive as well. We've been going there off and on now since the early 80's, and it is very apparent that this whole charade the PGC has implemented is just that, a charade. You are correct, many, many camps will be empty come hunting season in the future if this continues, and this will also in turn impact the local economy heavily at a time of year when the local economy can normally enjoy the boost in sales of services, rentals, and products. I firmly believe the PGC shot themselves directly in the foot (or elsewhere) by giving out too many tags, for too many years in a row. JMHO. Pinwheel 12

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Yep, I thought you might be in or near Black Moshannon. Thank much of your dilema on your district forester Bob Merril of DCNR. He told us in a class two years ago he would like to see a 0-2 deer per mile in the state forest.

Black Moshannon, Six mile Run, Black Bear, Grassflats are all hurting now, and as you have seen a lot of people are pushing on down out of the state forest towards Julian etc...

Our camp is closed for this year, no use hunting up there with numbers so low. We take the kids up in early Oct every year and hike, cook out, etc... and at night we spot deer for the kids... this is the first year we did not see a deer with the light. Several miles of driving and none. We usually see at least 10.

Good luck wherever you end up.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

0-2 deer per square mile??? If that is their goal, up on the mountain they will probably reach it after this season, darn near there now. I cannot fathom why anyone in their right mind would want to do that to be honest.

We used to spotlight our "loop" and see anywhere from 180-240 deer per night. Habitat was still sustaining them too, tho crop damage was admittedly high in some areas. I still believe a "happy medium" could've been reached oustide of this flat-out eradication. Anyway to finish the story this year we saw 10-20 on average during the spotlighting. Best night was 24. Last two years we even saw a few decent bucks in one area, but nothing even remotely close to that this year. Oh yeah, we heard of a couple of the "big-uns" surviving through to this year,( try the Clay Mine Road Swamp) but every remaining hunter that buys a tag in that area is hunting them. Standing room only.

I dunno where it is going to go, but IMHO it doesn't look good at all, and we have already decided to not go down next year and to instead try NY or CT, where we saw more respectable deer dead alongside the road driving to camp in PA than we saw from stand while actually in PA-- unfortunately the same cannot be said for when we drove across I-80---we saw TWO.

Someone better wake up, and quick. JMHO.

Good luck to you also this year as well as every other ethical hunter out there. Pinwheel 12

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Your out of your mind....obviously your narrow minded to your particular area only and I understand this whole policy that PA is currently under by no means can work for a whole state..particularly in your area that you are refering to if in fact you are being honest with us and yourself but in the rest of the state AR is significantly improving buck age and size.....it can't be disputed..period not only are the sightings of maturer/larger bucks being up but you talk to any taxidermist in my area of NE/Central PA and they'll tell you they've never seen the number of large bucks coming into their shops ever.

And the only unfortunate effect of harvesting BB is the poor sportsman who doesn't indentify their target before pulling the trigger. It's not hard to distinguish a BB from a mature doe, ever, given experience and with modern scopes that the majority uses...it's even easier. Too many morons with the brown it's down attitude, taking running shots on animals that they shouldn't be taking or extending their shooting range beyond their abilities.

I have empathy for your area and I see your point to the equation but in NE PA, AR is the best thing to ever happen and I hear from our brotheren in the west, it's even better.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Thats great that you are seeing lots of bigger bucks (oh, and your bretheren in the SE), even though you made such disparaging remarks.

But are you over your WMU DD goals? or are you at the goal or below. Because when you reduce your herd to the prescribed numbers then maybe you could criticize me for voicing my opinion. But as it is, the only thing you have to make your arguement so far is taxidermy shop rumors, hype, hyperbole and internet rhetoric.

We know the buck harvest has gone down, and we WISH that in that whole harvest the racks were bigger..... but we have no proof. We only have perceptions. Right?

So my perception must count as much as yours......

If the NE and SW are doing great, then more power to ya. But some concern ought to given to the REST OF THE STATE.


It seems though that I am seeing a trend on these message boards, those who are proponents of the herd reductions all seem to want to BB harvests to go down? Save the BB, is thier cry. BUT? oddly they are saying that thier sightings of large bucks is great, and things are wonderfull? If thats so, then why all the knee shaking over 20% of the harvest being BB........?

We always harvested BB before AR/HR, and we always will. So if you are seeing lots of bucks and they are bigger....then what are you sweating having more BB for?

Or aren't there as many 'big' bucks around as you make out?


Hmmmmmmm...........:eek:

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Heres a nice blurb from Alabama just to lube the conversation into considering what the downside is to not shooting enough deer (trying to protect BB).

"THINNING THE HERD In some cases, clubs and landowners need to re-evaluate their self-imposed restrictions on does. Several target only big mature does because they have an aversion to shooting fawns and yearlings - sometimes out of fear that the little ones are button bucks.
The result is that more young mouths are left to eat the available food. The problem isn't helped by the people who refuse to shoot does in January because the animals might be pregnant, or others who don't shoot them in October and November because they're still nursing.
"We've done too good a job convincing people not to shoot button bucks," Chris admitted. "This has hurt the doe harvest. My philosophy is if deer numbers are way too high for the habitat, I tell people not to worry about the size of the does. They just need to take out deer, as long as they're not taking out a huge percentage of buck fawns.
"You have got to take some bad with the good," he added. "It's not a mortal sin to kill a button buck. It's not the end of the world."http://www.alabamagameandfish.com/al_aa120103a/




Does Pa want herd reductions..... or don't they?

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Rob,there's a big difference from what's happening in the northeast and western part of the state vs the north central.I grew up in Wyoming county and still hunt there every year,There's still a ton of deer and yes more bigger buck.The only reason this is so is because hr has failed and the herd is still increasing or at the very least stable.This is do to limited access and the fact that they're seeing less tags.3c which is over run with deer got a decrease of 3000 tags this year.

I moved to Clearfield county in the 1992 and what these guys are saying is true.This area is mostly public land and has been pummeled to the densities Alt is shooting for.The bigger wmu's concentrated hunters where they had the most access not where they had the most deer.Hunting deer out here is a stark contrast to what it's like hunting out east.We're at Alt's goals and you're way above them.That's not the plan and when and if the goals are accomplished in your area,you'll be complaining as well.

Hunting isn't fruitless at these deer densities but it is much harder and not what Alt led hunters to believe it would be like.I've killed a buck every year since I lived out here.In fact I killed a decent buck this year on the first day of archery.These dd's haven't effected my success one bit but it ain't like Alt claimed it would be.

Like I've said from the day I logged on here,it's all about forest certification.That's why 2g got an increase of 1800 tags(including dmap) and 3c which is way above their dd goal got a decrease of 3000.It's all about the timber,not the deer.You can stand up and say how great Alt is but the truth is,anywhere the hunting is better,still have more deer than the goal allotted for.

I hunt both extremes so I see both sides.In both cases,hunters are correct in their assumptions.The difference is,the better hunting,like Alt promised,is happening where his plan failed to reduce the herd.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

DougE, very well said but at no time did I comment on HR, but simply AR and BB misconceptions.

And to be honest, it was a waste of my time. I will refrain from wasting anymore.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

It is ridiculous to call anyone that harvests any legal deer in accordance with the regulations ,a poor sportsman. If the PGC really didn't want hunters to harvest BB they would have made them a protectected class of deer , just like bucks with less than 3 pts. on on side. The simple fact is you are only fooling yourself if you think saving BB will stop the declining buck harvests, while the goal is to reduce the herd by over 50%. Buck harvests declined 30% due to AR with a herd that was increasing. Saving BB and shooting adult doe only accelerates herd reduction and will increase the rate of decrease in the buck harvest.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Yea Rob, you fit right into this category from my post...

"Rack waving was blinding some hunters who just heard the AR part, but forgot its weird cousin HR."

You only wish to talk about AR that appeals to your lesser nature, but you don't really want ot chat about HR which is a key to meeting the goals of our deer plan.

you know a healthy herd from our current program is not a cafeteria style buffet program. You don't get to just pick out the part you like and ignore the others. It don't work that way.

an I am going to post another quote from a state which has gone down this same road with AR, Hr, and BB harvests. Aksansas.

"Concerns surrounding the reluctance by hunters to kill female deer, on the chance it may be a button buck, could result in a decreased doe harvest. The agency has pressed for a balanced sex ratio in its deer management practices." Ark DNR

The only misconception about BB is that after a few year and some practice we won't be shooting many of them. As you can see from the Arkansas stats I posted after 6 years they are whacking as many as any state in the union and then some. And thay are not even harvesting 2 doe for one buck like PA.

The only reason we have AR is to accomplish HR, they are connecte at the hip and you can't separate them.





"Be not indifferent to contempt, even from very ordinary people, but rather look well to the cause of it. "

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

DD,
Again, nobody is calling for increased buck harvests. This is your backdoor agenda. With HR there will be decreased harvests, most understand this. For AR to work, the bucks must survive. Again, most understand this. Some BB kill is acceptable, perfectly legal. Wanton elimination of BB, however, defeats this objective.
WOW!
It just hit me what your objective is, DEADdeer! (name says it all)

LIV.....bucks (so does mine)

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

If you don't want increased byck harvests ,why save BB? Do you just want them to get hit by cars or die from other non-hunting mortality. Obviously the main reason one wants to save BB is so there will be more buck available to be harvested.




Alt apparently didn't understand it because he promised more and bigger buck than we have ever had before. But he lied , just as he lied when he said AR would double the number of 8 pt. buck. AR will not work with HR even if we save more BB, because for every adult doe that is harvested in place of a BB, decreases breeding rates and recruitment and decreases the number of BB even faster than if we harvested BB instead of adult doe. AR can't save 1.5's that aren't born just as AR can't save 1.5's that were harvested as BB, but shooting adult doe instead of fawns decreases the number of BB faster and the effects are cummulative.

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

Its not just deaddeer who wants less deer, its the sportsman of pa who want less deer.

Our plan is in place to reduce the herd to balance it with its habitat.

As nebulous as that is, its what you got.

No way to candy coat it, its a bitter pill as they say.

I believe Gary said it best in Jan of this year at the PGC meeting.....

"get used to seeing less deer"

RE: PA BB Harvests
 

What I heard Alt say is "More big bucks" not more and bigger bucks.

More big bucks is not a lie. We are harvesting more big bucks.

As for refraining from shooting BB's not helping to enhance the buck kill, thats just plain ridiculous. It cant become a big buck if it dies as a knothead. PERIOD! Sure some will die from other causes. Sure, some will still be shot as AL deer. No, not all will make it. BUT SOME WILL!!!

Again, your argument is becoming more and more transparent. Your real problem is that you want the old days back. The days of seeing bunches of deer and being allowed to shoot the first deer with 3" of bone on his head so you can say yup, I got my buck!

Those days are past, get over it!