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IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Okay everyone,
I was glad to have the voting on my Alt poll go so well, now, I would like everyone who replied, or didn't reply on there to tell me EXACTLY why you do or don't like Alt. I will be e-mailing this message to the Pennsylvania Game Commission when it has run its course. Thanks guys. We need to get the actual sportsmans idea out there. Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"  |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
OK, I like Alt because he is trying to change things for the better. And, after reading your last post on the yes-no thread, I think I agree with everything you said, BM.
That`s probably enough to make you change your mind!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> How can I send you some pics of deer horns? I know, technically they are antlers! |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I like what Dr. Alt is trying to do. I say give him a chance. After all look what he did for the Black Bear here in Pa. He is not just a wildlife biologist he is a hunter that has deep roots in Pa. and has a passion for whitetails. I think he has some great ideas and support him 100%.
God Bless & Good Hunting LM/NAHC Member NRA Member P&Y CLUB Member QDMA Member Ducks Unlimited |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Hey Big Country, you can e-mail me at [email protected] Hey, anyone with good pics of deer can send them to me at that e-mail address.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I do not dislike Gary Alt although I have some concerns on his ideas.He states he wants QDM so the bigger more mature bucks are the ones breeding the does,Yet these mature bucks are the ones targeted for next year.Also he states that habitat is one of the main reasons for poor development of deer in Pa.Too many deer for the capicity of the land,yet in his own words he states that after this years A/R he states that the bucks saved will triple in one year.Also these deer will become legal and the normal 80 to 90% will be shot when they do, so not a long term solution.He has never adressed the problem with button bucks,or that there is a problem shooting too many as doe and then being counted as a doe and not a buck.I have not seen an earn a buck program even brought up where if a button buck is shot it must be tagged as a buck.Also predators are never mentioned in his talks and new studies have found that bears are taking as much as 26% of all fawns more then even biologist thought.
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
The programs he has been trying to put forth is not all bad, I have no problems with AR.But they are not new ideas from him.He has not given any firm figures how low he wants the deer population taken to.I disagree with his plan of drastically lowering the overall deer herd in Pa.He is taking the easy way to balance the deer and the habitate.Instead of killing all the deer ,why not take advantage of the lumber companys.They Pay for the timber.Let them have the timber free ,but in return they must clear cut areas for a agriculture program on the Gamelands.For every 100 acres of gamelands there should be 10 acres of some sort of food plots.Get the food plots free for the timber.Also I wish he would be a leader and hunt on the gamelands like alot of the Pa hunters have to instead of a private club where his own rules wont effect him.I feel that is hypocritical to ask the followers to do what the leader dont do. And I would like him to fess up to where that rack he holds up at the meetings really came from.Stop acting like a politician and start acting like a poor schmooze hunter.Thanks
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I abstained from the previous vote for a few reasons. I tend to believe in what Gary Alt is trying to achieve...a healthy deer herd. I probably want the same thing that every other hunter in PA wants....to see deer on a daily basis and to see big bucks in there as well. Is that situation occurring now? No, I don't see deer every time that I go out there but it isn't because there isn't a large enough population. I also don't see more than one "big buck" every other year or so....but I still enjoy deer hunting.
The reason that I abstained from voting is that even though I agree with his overall plan I do not agree with one specific part of it.....the continuous "chipping away" of the regular archery season. If he discontinued that one part of the plan then he would have 100% of my vote. |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
First of all people MUST go out and see his lecture before they make any judgements because he does talk about predation from coyotes and bears if fact he talked about it quite a bit. He said that bears are more of a threat to fawns then coyotes are. Another thing is that he wants to balance the herd here in pa and that will take time and patience. Big bucks are just a by product of this. I just don't understand anyone who is against him must be against a healthy herd. He has a lot of ideas that he wants to see done that he thinks will work and he even stated that everything will not be correct and will work but they will fix it and tell us what happened and move on. He is implementing some of the largest whitetail research program in NA. There is so many studies being done here that it will take time to follow up on these things and put the information to work. This is NOT a quick fix here guys it will take time. I am all for his ideas. HE explains his reasons very well. Lots of people attended his seminar and when he asked if people are for it I don't think one hand was not raised. PLease go see him and after it is over he takes questions so go ask away. He never states that he will be right but we atleast should be standing with him and I for one am with him all the way. He is also getting information from a lot of other biologists out there. He gets input from other stats biologists to see what they feel is correct. Things like studies and such to see where we need to fix things.
I just feel that we need a change here in pa to help with this VERY mismanaged herd that we have had for many many years. It is not going to be over night but in time it will work. I for one am with you DR GARY ALT all the way. |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I agree with Dr. Alt because he is managing the Deer herd, for the health of the herd, based on proven, biologically proven principles and facts.
These principles are nothing new, they are used in over 20 other states, and until another proven management strategy comes along, with over 30 years of compiled research, put together by the top whitetail biologists in the country, who can argue the validity? Every change Dr. Alt is bringing to the state can be proven with years and years of research. You can also see the need for these changes with years and years of neglect and mismanagement. I also like that he is doing his best to make the changes quickly, so that people can see immediate results and improvements, and jump on the bandwagon soon. I can not believe the personal sacrifice he has made to bring forth his message of truth and fact. Politician? or maybe a person of high moral character and conviction, with enough education and intelligance to deliver the facts, with total disregard to feel good legislation, special interest groups, and the stubborn vocal minority, steeped in tradition and mismanagement complacency. Keep it up Dr. Alt!! Jeff...U.P. of Michigan. |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Jeff,Im not against Antler restrictions if there done properly,What 20 states practice antler restrictions? I'd like to do some research, Thanks
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I like Alt because he's actually doing something! How long has it been since we've had a change in the deer seasons? Who was the last biologist in charge of whitetails in this state? I don't know the answer to either of these questions.
Like Frank said, I don't like the way he's chipping away at archery season, but he's doing scientifically proven things to make the herd healthy. While we've all sat back and let the PGC manage for QUANTITY deer in the past, Alt comes in and starts immediately making changes. He's broadened opportunity, made changes to seasons and regs, and most importantly of all....HE'S TRYING TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC. I think he deserves a chance....especially since he's trying! |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Cardeer,
As of 1999 there were 21 states that had some type of QDM regulations implemented in their states, at various levels. The Dooly County expirement in GA started in 1992, with a 15" minimum spread and drastic population contol measures-it includes 5 counties. The initial approval rating was 66%, that climbed to an approval rating in the 80's within 2 years, and over 90% today. The QDM map lists 21 states as of 1999. I don't have the map with me, but states that come to mind with some sort of QDM guidelines, are LA, IL, KY, GA, MD, AK, NJ, MI, and now PA. PA and MI were not part of the map. MI has point restrictions varying from 2 to 3pts on a side. Approval ratings for MI have gone up each year for the different management zones. The point with all of those states is that there is great hard data out there to support QDM, but none to dispute it. In fact, I just got off the phone with the Midwest Director of the QDMA, and he and I were talking about that we don't think that anywhere QDM has been implemented, the approval rating has gone down. I'm sure if you do some digging you will find lots of information, either from the state DNR's, or the QDM organization itself at www.qdma.com. Protect yearling bucks, lower population to carrying capacity of land, improve sex ratios, and improve age structure-basic formula for improving the herd based on QDM. I just look at it as there is nothing else out there that is a proven system, so who are we to argue. If you look into it also makes sense. Jeff...U.P. of Michigan. |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Thanks jeff for the info.I have one question in my head.As far as bringing the herd number in line with the available food.Why elminate deer if you can add the food sources???? And States I hunt in come to mind like Iowa,Texas,Missouri I see lots of deer maybe 40 to 60 a day in Iowa ,but yet they have awesome buck.Has to be the food source i quess. Pa. has the area for huge food sources in its gamelands. They have alot of public land,but all they do is sell the timber and dont aggressively farm it and supply the food.In my mind that would be alot better.Healthy deer and enough for everone to fill there freezer. Maybe I'm all wet,but I'm tired of seeing 5 deer a week in Pa. and there going to eliminate more.Myself and my friends almost made up our minds not even to buy a Pa. license this year.We are almost ready to lease some land in Alabama where you have enough deer to shoot one a day.Two weeks there and I can shoot more deer then I can shoot here in 10 years.Then go to Missouri for the big buck If thats your thing.I really dont care if it has antlers or not as long as it is mature and healthy.Thanks
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Cardeer, that post was awsome, it just opened up an entirely new thought to me.
Do you think that the PGC wants the overall number of deer down because it is easier to manage less of something? This might stir up the pot, but just think about it. Cardeer's post was right, we could have the best of both worlds. We could have the same amount of deer overall and we could have alot more food planted on game lands. This would mean that the deer herd will be HEALTHY and it will still be large. The main purpose of Alt's plan is to make a healthy deer herd, well, give them more food and that will definetly make them more healthy. It almost seems that the PGC wants less deer in our state because it would be easier to manage with less deer. This may be a long shot, but who knows, it could be true. I agree with Cardeer though, I don't like the idea of having the deer herd cut in half. I really love going out in the woods and seeing big bucks, but I REALLY love going out in the woods and seeing lots of deer. Give the deer more food and they will be more healthy. Think about it, what does a deer REALLY need to survive? Food and Water. A deer could live in the middle of New York city if there was ample food and water suplies around. Habitat is important, don't get me wrong, BUT I think food is much more important. That is why I still think that the PGC should plant huge food plots on Public Lands. This could actually help the PGC recieve money. You may wonder how this is, well, if the public lands have more deer and healthier deer the word will spread fast. People who didn't really want to travel to PA for hunting will because they know that they have a good chance at a nice deer. That will bring in money which could pay for the food plots. Heck, if the PGC planted a 50 acre food plot of standing corn on every State Game Land, the quality of dee would rise dramatically. Another thing that I have been thinking, since the PGC is considering allowing baiting, why not regulate it. They don't want deer to get diseased from too many eating in one area, well, don't allow piles of corn. I think that if the game commission made it legal to bait, and baiting was defined as "hunting around/in/or near a planted food source such as standing corn, alfalfa fields, clover fields, etc..." This would mean that alot of people would try to plant food plots of corn, alfalfa, Mossy Oaks BioLogic, seed blends.... That would intern make the overall quality of deer go up. I am fortunate enough to live in probablly the best, most UNDER RATED county for deer hunting in Pennsylvania. I am fortunate enough to see deer that are VERY healthy and in large numbers. There are State Game Lands near my house, they don't have food plots on them, but they are surrounded by corn fields and farms. The quality of deer that come off of these State Game Lands is good. I think that six or seven 8 points, and two 10points came out of their this year. I would go as fas as to say that the PGC/Gary Alt should come to Indiana County, heck, come to my home. I will show them around. They should try to get EVERYWHERE in Pennsylvania to be an exact replica of Indiana County. The overall deer quality would be right up there with Texas, Kansas, Iowa, and Illinois. Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Part of the problem is that the deer herd has been so high, for so long, that some plant species will probably never regenerate. For others to come back, and for the browsed out areas of young trees to come back, the herd needs to be drastically reduced first, and then other means of sustainable herd growth can be explored.
You mentioned Alabama. A friend of mine(also a National QDM board of Director), is a professional whitetail manager with a masters in forestry, and biology. Many of the private land owners of large parcels are fencing their properties in AL. They do this not to keep deer in, but to keep deer out. Inside deer weights are doubled, population is 25% of outside, and sex ratios are 1:1. There is a bunch of food in AL for the deer. Lots of food sustains life, though, not necessarily a quality life. Mark has fenced in properties that have total numbers of plant species in the hundereds. On the outside of the same fence, plant species are in some cases less than 20. Except for the extreme southern portion of the Upper Peninsular, where I live in MI, the population is controlled by the severity of the winter. On an average winter we lose 50,000 fawns(50%). Those same 50,000 fawns would live in most other states, they'd just be stunted and malnourished. In the Camp Cusino deer research facility, by my house, populations were raised and lowered drastically during a period of over 30 years. Optimum weight and antler development for all sexes was best at 60% of carrying capacity of land. Supplemental feed was used, and although the carrying capacity of the land was in the 40-50 deer per square mile, the herd was increased in various stages to almost 200 deer at one time. The deer lived because of the supplemtal feeding, but their was a substantial decrease in body weights, birthing rates, lactation rates, and antler beam diameter. Avg. fawn rates went from well over 1.5 per doe, to under .5 per doe. Average yearling weights decreased by over 20%, with only a marginal increase in population. Lactation rates and quality were decreased substantially, with poor fawn development, and increased fawn mortality. Basically they found they could artificially increase the herd, but with major health consequances due to increased herd stress and anxiety, eventually leading to increases in disease suseptability, such as MI's Alpena area, and the TB outbreak. Carrying capacities can be increased, but to what degree?, and at the expense of what? I live in a very forested area, with over a million acres owned and controlled by corporations-timber companies like Mead, Champion, and Shelter Bay forests. 84% of the land in the UP is corporate/public owned, and trust me, neither know how to manage for deer herds. To try and cordinate the efforts of all of them would be impossible. Most forests managed for saw timber, yeild very little for deer and wildlife, in fact a mature pine forest will yeild as little as 50#'s per acre of forage per year. Most forest managed for wildlife, yeild very little timber, especially vaneer, and a substantial board per foot amount. When you throw in the tree-huggers, who want mature forest at the expense of the wildlife, whether they like it or not, and you have a mess. For Alt to coordinate the efforts of corporate, public, and special intrest groups such as the Nature Conservancy, and others, would at best take years, and would most likely fail. I hunt in northeast PA, near Bradford in the national forest. A few years ago some of the guys in camp were complaing about not seeing the herds of 50 coming down the hollow, in fact some would come in after opening day with only 4-5 sightings. I've always hunted and hour to and hour and a half in, so I've still seen between 20 and 40 deer per opening day. The difference with my sightings have been instead of 1 buck per opening day, I've seen 4-6 per day the last 6 years. In our camp, although we've been seeing less, we still have a 60-70% success ratio, with no spikes, increased body weights, almost half 2.5+ years old, and more points. Some of the guys in camp have had to change their hunting habits, but now we all agree it's progress, and are excited for the future. No one can be perfect, but Alt has taken the fundementals of QDM, implemented them, and has taken the time to talk at over 200 seminars in the last 2 years. Some say it's his job, I say it's the work of a dedicated, caring individual, with a mission of progress and hope for the health of the herd, and future hunter enjoyment. Jeff...U.P. of Michigan. |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Good post Jeff. I do believe that it is hard to manage herds in a way that makes everybody happy. I will admit that it would be hard for the PGC to work with all of those people, tree huggers and timer companies.
I have a question about your post. What where they feeding the deer in the study that made the overall health of the deer decrease? I mentioned planting food plots in my last post. Wouldn't a good, quality food plot of plants that are high in nutrion help increase the health of the deer herd? I mean, if the PGC planted buckwheat, corn, Mossy Oaks BioLogic Seed blends, red clover, winter rye, white oaks, soybeans, alfalfa, chickory, chufas, lab lab, trefoil, benne, cowpeas, aeschynomene, sorghum, oats, and other plants like these, wouldn't that allow the deer to have more feed, and create a more helthy deer herd? Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Supplemental feeding high quality food plots definately increased the health of the herd. Although it doesn't when the population is to high. Studies have shown that planting only 1% of the available land in food plots will have an average increase of 20% in the body weights of the herd. That 20% probably wouldn't be possible in your area, because of all the available food anyways, in my area the body weight increase could even be higher, because of the lack of food. For your area, food plots would probably work best as harvest plots, with the use of natural funnels and corridors to offer great ambush sights, as opposed to nutrition plots.
The camp Cusino Deer research facility used high protein pellets for supplemental feedings, along with a limited number of small food plots. The deer actually had to be trained to eat the pellets, but when they were it was easy to catch them on the outside because they would just use the pellets as bait-none of the "wild" deer would ever be caught. The problem wasn't the type of food, it was the herd density. Deer hate to be crowded. I have several small food plots, and get the same pictures, of the same deer, on each plot. Those deer have chosen the various field as "theirs", and there is usually alot of competition for the best food sources, even in low populations. If you increase that population, then yearling bucks, low does in matriarchal society, and their offspring, get the worst food sources. They all suffer because of increased herd stress and diminished food sources. Deer have to have variety, and as you know, it's easier to list what a deer won't eat. With a high herd density, and the variety needed, some of the more attractive food sources can become completely eliminated due to overbrowsing, even if great food plots and supplemental food is depleted. After the 200 deer density days at the camp, there was virtually no browse available for any deer other than a mature buck. A mature buck could reach the highest available browse-around 7', and even mature does could not. It's been around 10 years since the incloser closed, and it would be very interesting to see what browse is available-I bet it hasn't regenerated much. I've only been to central PA, from Harrisburg to Bloomsburg, and around the entire Bradford area, and from I've seen it seems there are still too many deer-just look at all the browse lines. Even the best lands can only support 50-60 deer per square mile before contributing to herd stress. If I'm seeing 25 on opening day, in a heavily forested, non-agricultural area, the deer herd seems pretty high. Just a question, would you rather see 10 deer on opening day, with 4 bucks-even a couple of older ones, or 25 deer on opening day, with 1 buck-maybe a spike. I feel fortunate to live and hunt where I do, there are low deer numbers and very, very few bowhunters, and I only average 2-3 deer seen for every 2 times I sit. I quess I chose the no hunter route, over the high deer population route. Forgot something, who will take care of all those food plots if they are planted. Who will plant them? I spend hours and hours on just 5 acres of quality food plots a year(70 last year-according to my tractor, let alone my 4-wheeler), I put out 16 tons of lime last year, and have spent over a $1000 in bulldozer work in the past 3 years. Not to mention the clover that needs mowing 1-2 times a year for weed control, and the replanting needed when weeds eventually take over because of new farmland created, and the lack of funds to use effective hebacide control. The state folks are not farmers. We have clover fields by us that were cleared, planted, and then turned to weed the next year when funding ran out at the state level. You guys actually have lots of food in PA, try coming to the U.P. of MI. and I'll show you what the lack of food looks like. I can tell you it looks like spruce, tamerack, and tag alder, mixed with uneadible grasses, no nut crops, no fruit crops, no farmland, virtually no woody browse, and sand. Not many places in PA fit that description. Jeff...U.P. of Michigan. Edited by - NorthJeff on 03/04/2002 14:14:24 |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Just a question, would you rather see 10 deer on opening day, with 4 bucks-even a couple of older ones, or 25 deer on opening day, with 1 buck-maybe a spike. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Jeff, Unfortunately, too many people would rather see a bunch of doe that they won't shoot as opposed to seeing those couple good bucks and a few doe. After all tradition is most important for the deer herd....right? Jason |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I'm behind Alt because his goals are for a healthier herd in balance with the habitat. What he has done so far has a basis in scientific management. He has said that this will be an evolving process and will be adjusted if mistakes are made. He even admits that some mistakes will be made!
Frank has a valid point in that Alt seems to not care much about archery hunters as a group. I don't think he's anti-archery as some in the PGC are but he's not a big ally to us either. That is something we can change by making a concerted effort to be a significant factor in his management plans by killing does in early archery season. I also agree with several of you that we need to start a push for more food plots on OUR gamelands. Many of them seem to be managed more for timber than for food and cover for wildlife. If labor for planting and seed cost are a problem, maybe some type of sharecropping program could work where a local farmer plants and harvests but leaves some standing for the wildlife. Buck Magnet, I tried several times to email you to respond to your email but cant get it to go. Is there just supposed to be a space between your first and last name? I think Big Country told me he's having the same problem. |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
BT, there is a underscore between my first and last name. [email protected]
Here is something to help, put your mouse on the e-mail address, don't click, then just look down at the bottom left hand corner of the computer screen, it will say mailto, then it will give my e-mail address without it being underlined. And just incase you don't know how to make an underscore, you hit shift, then the dash key. Here is what my e-mail looks like, just take the spaces out of it. jason_lowmaster @ yahoo.com Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" [img]http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/BuckMagnet7/Me%20and%20Horns.jpg"> Edited by - Buck Magnet on 03/04/2002 15:41:10 Edited by - Buck Magnet on 03/04/2002 15:43:27 |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Buck magnet,Thats what the message boards are for.Everyone has a different idea.Mine just seem to be a little odd most my life and dont always go with the flow.A guy told me the other night that the reason a old goat like me wants to see alot of deer when
they hunt is cause I relize I'm running out of time in my life to hunt.And I'm trying to squeeze every deer kill in before I croak.Maybe he is right? I'm a old goat out of touch.What ever the state does they do. |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
O don't say that, you have plenty of time left Cardeer.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
CD that is horrible for someone to say.
Well I was wondering about the food plots on public land idea. What about the health of the deer being so close together. Like passing diseases back and forth. I do think it sounds interesting but what about the health issue? I also feel that if food plots were a good idea and ever was thought to be a possibility then I would volunteer my time to help maintaining it and find groups or and most likely other hunters to help out. I really don't think it would be hard to find help in doing it. But I still think that we need to get the herd under control. We need to harvest more deer and then maybe food plots would work better then if you just did it now. We still need to reduce the herd some more. But a lot of good posts guys keep it up. Northjeff great job on you last couple posts brian |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I would like to say that this has been the most enjoyable thread on this subject in a while or even ever. Lots of good people giving there opinions. Great job this is very enjoyable.
Brian |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Oh one more thing Even Frank posted on this thread and that has got to say something because he doesn't get into it on other threads like this as it gets pretty heated but he did here so that has got to say something.
Brian |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
445, I feel the same way about this post. This is one of the, no, this is the most peaceful and EDUCATING threads on this subject. I am really impressed, good job guys.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
NOTE PLEASE >>>>>>>>>>>I would like to add one more suggestion Mr game commission.Would you please consider setting up a program that the disabled hunter could take advantage of all the suburban city,state ,federal parks for hunting deer with a bow or crossbow.These areas are some of your biggest problems as far as over population.Many poor disabled hunters cant afford a 4 wheeler,trailer,truck to pull it .Plus they need help getting the heavy equipment to the huge vast areas of gamelands.Myself being one of those guys.If I had 8000 for a 4 wheeler I would go out west and use a guide.Thanks
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
That is a good idea Cardeer, I think the PGC should help out the senior hunters that are disabled. Guys like you are the ones that have put alot of money and years into hunting in Pennsylvania, I think that you guys should get something in return.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I don't have time right now to explain in detail how I feel, but I have told him in person how I felt and that I think he is doing a good job and don't let all the narrow minded people who bash him to stop him from trying. That said I do have a few small reservations about some things, but ultimately if the hunters follow the rules I think it will work.
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I am all in favor of his proposals. I know where I hunt that the doe to buck ratio is still poor and we (my hunting group)are working hard to change this, (perhaps 12 to 1 in my estimation.) and 65 degree weather in December does not help the cause!!!!! But it is really hard to do QDMA when your neighbors restrict the harvest of doe! I would like to see more doe permits issued and greater land owner control, which from my understanding will eventually perhaps next year be implemented. I too would like to see more and bigger bucks.
However, if you have not seen the damage deer can do to the forest you probably hunt in an agricultural area in ideal habitat. I hunt in the mountains of Bradford county and I have seen first hand what too many deer can do to the forest..they decimate it!! For the people that complain there are no deer, that is because they have nothing to eat! they either died of starvation or moved out! When I first started hunting we would easily see 100 deer or more a day! this is no joke. But we would hardly see a buck and if we did it would be a spike with 3" horns. As the bonus tag system was implimented we killed alot of doe, and then logging started to occur, thus, the deer had more to eat and guess what. More and bigger deer including nicer bucks. Now you might be lucky to see a dozen deer a day where i hunt. But the deer are good size in great shape and the bucks if allowed to grow at least to 2-1/2 years of age are really nice size. But I and the rest of my hunting party would rather see this than a deer behind every tree. I hope for everyones sake that his proposals pass..If they dont we have a long hill to climb to get as far as we have with this. Also, a pat on the back to Gary Alt!! He has worked extremely hard at this and put up with alot in regards to his proposals..God bless him! |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Just another couple of quick responses to "cardeer" on his post regarding the game commission putting out more food plots. You say you hunt iowa and Illinois...I cant remember ever seeing any of the terrain that we have here in PA (like our mountians) out in Iowa. Iowa seems mostly agricultral as is Illinois. I would really like you to come to the area of bradford county I hunt and try to grow some corn on some of the side hills up here!!!! I for one dont want the game commission to become some kind of share cropper for us. If you have visited any of the game lands recently you would see they are doing alot for the game, including alot of food plots and they are getting better about starting these kind of projects!!! Lack of funding for years prohibited this. I was amazed recently to see that they even started pruning the old apple orchards on state game lands #36. I would also like to see how much other state DER organizations are putting out as far as food & Cover. Probably alot less than our state does as most do not have the public lands that ours does!!!!!!!!!!!
However with limited manpower, equipment and funding its got to be a tough job. BUT I HAVE SEEN IMPROVEMENT!!! I realize they are not the perfect group as none of us are, I would like to see increased logging of the older forests to promote new forest growth, but I know there is alot more going on in the background within the PGC that i am not aware of as far as Forestry and game management plans. So i'll leave that for them. Dont forget it costs alot of $, manpower and time to clear,plow,disc,lime,fertilize,seed & mow. I know all to well. I only take care of about 4 acres of food plots and it takes me alot of time and several hundreds of $ over the spring and summer! |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
I didn't post on the poll - but wished I had.
If I were a PA resident - especially with some land, I'd support him 100%. Just because the state might institute a management plan for the general public, doesn't mean you have to follow it (though I think for most it would be wise). My point is - If you control say 400 acres, and everyone around you is forced to take does, and older bucks (kind of the opposite of what you have now), you could manage your land to take advantage of the situation. DOn't get me wrong, I'm all for taking does and and protecting young bucks, but think of what you could accomplish. By offering food plots, and sanctuary, you could take your does, and up the plan a notch and make your goal 3-1/2 year old bucks within a couple years. In states where no restrictions exist (NY) most of us are trying to manage for 2-1/2 year old bucks, with the occasional 3-1/2 year old on small properties. Assume that the plan was in place today, and you wanted to increase your deer sightings, and average buck age, could you do it? Of course you could. Buckmagnent, your area sounds great now, think how much better it could be. Cardeer, your situation is a bit more bleek, you say you hunt a week and see 5 deer. With the Alt plan, you would see 2-1/2 deer per week - but they would be better deer, I'm sure that's your fear. And honestly, it might be realized until the habitat rebounds either through management by the state on your forests (through cutting and food plots per your suggestion), or naturally as less deer browse the understory(which might take many years). If the Alt plan goes through tomorrow, many of you hunting barren woodlands would have to reconsider where you hunt, how you hunt and what would need to be done to increase your deer sightings/population. Mostly it would require increasing the carrying capacity of the land. There is nothing in the Alt plan that I've read, that would stop anyone from doing this. Biologically, the state needs to reduce the herd, or increase the carrying capcity. Unlike NorthJeff's situation, Winterkill is not a big concern. The state has decided to "manage less deer" (Buckmagnet's words), yes, but if you increase the carrying capicity, or its already high like in Buckmagnet's case, I doubt you'd see less deer at all, just better ones. This is the case in Iowa, Kansas, etc.  |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
For those who think the PGC should increase the carrying capacity or farm more land than they do now, take this tour and it will open your eyes as to why that's not possible in upstate PA. Even if you have to drive 6 hours to get there, do it, it's worth it. The May tour is the best time of year to see the problems.
 "The tours are set to start from the game lands buildings on SGL # 44 which is located off of Route 949 about 9 miles south of Ridgway. Turn left just before the two bridges over the railroad tracks and Toby Creek. We will travel by vehicle from site to site, with some short walks, to examine several areas. Wear comfortable outdoor clothing and dress for the season. After the tours we will try to have some food and refreshments prepared. These are always a good time and I encourage you to bring the family. Both tours are set to start at 1:00 PM. Set tour dates are: Saturday, May 25 at 1:00 PM - Spend the morning hunting turkey then join us in the afternoon. Sunday, October 6 at 1:00 PM - Come for the weekend. Archery hunt, on Saturday, then join us for Sunday's tour. We do have some good hunting. For those that want to make it an hunting experience I would be happy to provide some advise on good locations. There is so much public land that I can promise a place for all takers. John and I also argeed that we would do tours, on other dates, if groups get together and want a tour. So you tell us when you want a tour and we will do our best to work it in and set it up. Dick Bodenhorn WCO, Elk County" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Great post Farm Hunter
The area I hunt is farm country. You can't get in your car and drive ten minutes without seeing a farm. We have corn, alfalfa, clover, and wheat planted by farmers. We have an awsome acron crop each year. The deer have so much food from farmers, that they don't enter the woods and eat everything. They only thing that I have ever seen deer eat in the woods is acorns. They all head out to the fields in the evening and eat some corn, a little alfalfa, and some clover. There is plenty of food left over through the winter that deer don't starve. We have a pretty high amount of deer around here, but the caraying capacity is even larger. Within a square mile of my house, there are 12 HUGE corn fields, 5 clover fields, 8 alfalfa fields, and three wheat fields. I mean, the area is all food. I have come to the conclusion that I will just leave the managing up the PGC, they have a VERY HARD task in front of them. The northern part of Pennsylvania is ENTIRELY different the southern part where I live. Trust, I have a camp in Cooks Forest, I travel up to Ridgeway all the time. The woods up there are NOTHING like the woods down there. I am not trying to offend any people who hunt in the Big Woods of Northern Pennsylvania, but they aren't that great of habitat for deer. I have walked through the Game Lands up there, I have been through the area. The only thing on the forest floor is ferns. The trees are all huge, you never see saplings in the woods. There is little farming up there. I havn't really seen THICK BEDDING cover liket he stuff around here. I guess that you would just have to hunt in my area. The woods are full of all different stages of growth. In the middle of a bunch of HUGE white oaks, there are sapling and crab apple trees. The bedding area around here is LITERALLY INSANE. It is SO thick. Deer around here bed in areas of knocked down trees that are covered/surrounded by green briar that is sometimes probablly 15 feet tall. You LITERALLY have to crawl on hands and kness to get into these areas. Heck, alot of the woods around here have lawn grass growing on the forest floor. Seriously. It isn't like the big woods up north. The forest floor up there is either loose/sandy soil, ferns, or decaying pine needles. You can see for over a hundred yards in some of the big woods up north, down here, even in the winter, you will RARELY be able to see past 60 yards. It is just to thick. We don't live in a very "MOUNTANIOUS" area. We have some big hills and deep gully's, but for the most part, it is pretty flat around here. The areas are just so diverse. The PGC is going to have the biggest war they have ever had in trying to get BOTH areas to have a good, healthy deer herd. Just look in my signature, those size deer are COMMON in my area. That is no joke either, the bucks around here are HUGE. Up north, the deer aren't so big. Alot of hunters will have to change the way they hunt and I believe that scares them more than anything else. They won't be able to go around doing drives and scaring 50 deer out to a group of 100 hunters. Hunters will have to skillfully hunt the deer. They won't be seeing deer every two minutes and they wont be taking any shot at any deer. It is going to be a HUGE change, but it will help keep the woods a safer place to hunt. I know that people up north don't see nearly as many deer as us South Western PA hunters do, but trust me, it is for the best. Which is more important to you, seeing a lot of deer or seeing few deer but the deer will be healthy, bigger, stronger, and possibly even happier. Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Buck Magnet: That's exactly my point. The habitat/food is missing in the northern PA, and it won't get up to potential until the deer density is FIRST lowered so that the food can get ahead of the deer. You can't "build-up" the food supply, you need to take the deer density down to the point where some food gets past the deer. Then you can begin to build up the deer herd again but never back to the levels it was in years past.
Where I hunt in Berks is like you describe in Indiana co. |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
grundsow
I agree with you, but I would like to see the PGC plant food plots on the State Game Lands up north. I mean, you can help the herd by planting food, but it isn't going to do it all. If the PGC planted food plots and cut the herd down, then the area would have healthier deer and more food. Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet "Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE" |
RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Someone on an ealier post that I read said that in some of the midwestern states the guys out there wouldn't be caught dead with a small buck in the back of their truck, it's almost taboo out there to kill a scrub. You know, I've hunted Illinois and that's such a true statement and I couldn't help but think about how PA's culture is so totally the opposite. No, we are never going to be the midwest but it wouldn't hurt to try a little as long as it doesn't go overboard. In most areas come gun season if it's brown it's down in PA. That's a culture thats been beat into this state's hunters for a long time. Can you even imagine a guy on the first day of rifle season on a mountain passing up a buck cause it was a 1.5 year old and not yet mature, that's just not PA. There are a lot of guys in this state who hunt a couple days a year and when they do all they care about is killing something and they could care less about having a healthy deer herd in this state or about letting some of these bucks God for bid live a couple years. That mentality is going to be a hard one to change. I've seen some people during gun season that are so out of control and so wrapped up in killing something that they do some pretty scary things. In other words, I'm for the changes, go Alt ( on most things anyhow) but good luck in convincing the 1.3 million hunters in this state.
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
Natebook, last season we had just under 1 million and according to the surveys most hunters (65-80%) are willing to try the new proposals. Now all we have to do is watch it work. (Assuming we get past the April meeting and the push by a noisy few to go against science and the majority)
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
BTBowhunter, who is taking these polls, though? They may be getting 65 - 80% approval from the people taking the polls but I'm going to guess most hunters have never taken a poll, the the bigger question is how many hunters have taken a poll, if it's 50% or 75% of the total population than you have the majority but if it's only 5% than your 65- 80% approval rating is not accurate, that's what worries me. I'm not creating an argument cause I'm for the changes and my guess is most people that are against the changes are so because they are not educated on the population problem we have in some areas. Does anyone know what percentage of the total hunter population has taken a poll? Don't get me wrong, I hope your right and all we have to do now is watch it work.
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RE: IMPORTANT!!!!! UPDATE on ALTS POLL< TELL ME WHY !!
No they didn't poll every hunter. random sampling is a long proven method of conducting a survey or poll. No they arent 100 % accurate but they are typically VERY close. Its done every day from TV ratings to product surveys to hunter surveys to political polls. The bigger concern with polls is in how the questions are asked. I've read the most recent PGC poll and personally think the questions are very fair they're not leading or intended to promote one response or the other. BTW, Polling every hunter would be a huge task. I do like the idea of a survey with each license app but that hasn't happened yet. Maybe it should.
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