Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

There has been alot of complaining here lately on the new Deer Management in Pa.

Just wondering if anyone plans on attending seminars this year? I will! It doesn't do any good to complain to others on this board if you don't plan on asking question at the source.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Neither does any good come from talking to the source, if the scource has already called the hunters ignorant and the trouble makers.
that same source ends every meeting and press release with," the PGC will listen to the wishes of the hunters...", you'd think by now he'd have heard the majority of the hunters saying ...smaller units lower doe tags in less dense areas, no AR.
Maybe he's deaf???? 'cause I'm hearing 1 pro Alt for every 50 anti Alt ideas

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I agree f4yg, people should attend the meetings to get info straight from Dr. Alt. You can personally ask him questions. Ledgen where was this quote you speak of printed? I highly doubt it's legitamate.

PBB

Pick a hair.....or a caruncle!!

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In those words maybe no. But when you continually state publicly that the only reason the states sportsmen don't embrace his direction....is because they are uninformed, don't understand, need educating, don't understand how their support or lack of is hampering his goals, still hold on to its-brow-its-down mentallity, need to look at biology from his eyes, our greed as hunters hve created these problems, etc etc.....well......same thing in my book. Forget the fact that maybe there are folks that DO understand...and STIll diasagree. On there merits of their own argument. How dare they?

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fight4 hit the proverbial nail on the head! Whether you are for any, all, or none of Dr. Alts idea`s, you should attend one of his meetings. This is the only way to get accurate info on his plans, and to voice your opinions on the issues.

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I will be attending some of his meetings this year.He has one in feb.at a high school not far from me.I attended a couple mettings last year and I hate to say it but he does stick to what he thinks is right sometimes, unless every hunter protests.One butcher in my area representing between himself and another butcher about 75% of the deer butchered in this area.He ask Alt at that time to have doe season for a week before buck season and end on sat so they could at least have that sunday before buck to get caught up.In stead he made it worst by having a 2wk doe and buck season at one time.
So alot of his meetings I have found out is more for him going to the public to make it look like he took everyones opinion into account before he did what he already proposed.The last one I went to the majority of hands were against the doe and buck season.In the sunday paper that week the PGC had an article that said at the meeting the majority of hunters who attended were for Alt.I am not one who just listens to anyone I wiil see for myself and try to get it from the horses mouth in a decent way.I do not beieve in name calling as I have seen here sometimes but address him as Alt. Gary Alt or Dr. Gary Alt.I also think that everyone should attend at least one meeting this year
and here for yourself what goes on.Everyone should have a voice and someones idea may not help a certain hunting area even if he holds a degree.

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But what if we go and decide his ideas has merit? Who could we hammer on then? I suppose we could go back to the Clintons if we had too. Okay, I will go, but I will try to only see negative in anything he says. It is for the good of the mesage boards. :)

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Just read in Sundays paper that the Oct doe season has been scrapped. Mixed emotions for me personally. I believe in an early doe kill but would like a week or two of undisturbed archery season first. (Just my personal preference) I will attend when a meeting comes reasonably close. Let's face it,agree or disagree it's one of the best ways to be heard. I don't think Gary Alt or the PGC participates to this forum.

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Funny, the majority of hunters I know and trust me, its not a few favor antler restrictions. So whose the majority and whose the minority?

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I know one Harrisburg PGC employee that reads this forum. Hi PG!

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I went to one meeting last year.I ask a question and he refused to answer it,Said it had nothing to do with the pa management program. I ask him if he practices what he preaches when hunting and most of all I wanted to know where he hunts for deer.public land or a private club he pays for.He flat refused to answer. the way I look at it a good leader would have no problem answering that problem.Why should we be expected to suffer on public land while the leader gets the best places to hunt and manages the deer the way he sees fit. I know what kind of property he hunts,and believe me you cant go there as a average Joe schmoe. I can be a politician to,If he lets me hunt on his honey hole I'll support him 100%.And he does believe in smaller management areas,he hunts on one of his own.

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Why is it that we can attend his seminars....pour over everythng we find in print on him....watch him on TV when afforded....and if we still disagree with much that he is selling, its only because we are naysayers. Unbelievable!

What do you take us for Mark....IDIOTS? Don't insult me. Or is that that you actually do think yourself so much more intellectually superior to the rest of the states sportsmen? Like a few folks in the UBP do. I comprehend all that he is saying. And I see why he may choose SOME of the things that I disagree with. So you can stop the socialist mentallity, that anybody not on board with the current program is "part of the problem". We aren't saying we disagree completely with the man. We just aren't twinkledusted to the point of not being able to see just "why" in many cases he is doing things. And where some decisions could be taken in another direction....IF....and that is a big IF....he was actually listening to the states sportsmen.

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Boy Ralph, you read all that into my post? It was meant to encourgae people to attend his seminars. Will I see you at the 1/13 Harrisburg meeting?

Cardeer. I am sure he saw where you were going with that. I would agree it has nothing to do with management of the states deer herd. I am also sure many people have better places to hunt than he does. I don't think he got a chance to hunt this year at all because of the work he is doing for you or me. How would you handle a heckler in the crowd? When someone is obviously pushing for a confrontation, you try to put it aside and defuse. You came to explain a plan, not butt heads with an un-happy sportsman.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Mark,

I also understand where Cardeer was headed and I think it had every bit of relevance in relation to our deer management plan.

Each one of us forms our own opinions based on the areas that we frequent. Mr. Alt is no different. I do honestly believe that if he had to spend one day of a firearms season with me in the area that I hunt then he wouldn't have the same view of things that he does now.

I do support the antler restriction legislation but to view Mr. Alt as some sort of martyr who trully represents the majority opinion as opposed to his own viewpoint based on his personal experiences seems somewhat ridiculous to me.

Am I an "Altite"? No ....but do I believe the man is the "antichrist" to deerhunting in Pennsylvania...definitely Not.

Frank

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Frank, the problem with your argument is that Alt's opinion isn't based on the area he hunts. Like ours might be. I think that is a stumbling block he faces and have asked that he address it. He needs to show people why they want the denisties that they do. Release the studies it is based on. Show what data helps them determine the actual DPSM. Explain why it might be low in one area and high in another and how we will need to move around a little to get the density more balanced. I also want as many deer as we can get healthily.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Cardeer, When Gary Alt was at our gun club for one of his meetings he did mention (at least one of the places )where he hunts as part of his talk. Maybe he didn't respond because the audience at your meeting was close to the area. Ever have your favorite fishin hole/huntin spot appear in a magazine or paper? One of my favorite wild trout stream was in a PA magazine and my best kept secret was overrun! Oh yeah, as I recall, the area he mentioned was available to the public but he said that a lot of posted private property is in the area as well.

To those folks who claim that Dr Alt is going forward with his agenda, no matter what, it doesn't seem that way to most of the hunters I know.
As for the majority of hunters disagreeing with his plan, I dont see it among the 600+ members of our club, not among the hunters around my home and not among the hunters I've run into in the ANF. What I have encountered is some concern about the new ideas "is that really gonna work?" coupled with an attitude of "lets give it a chance".
By the way, the October rifle doe hunt has been scrapped. I guess they must listen to the wishes of hunters once in awhile

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YYYYYaaaaaaaaaeeeeeeehhhhh!!!

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>...sorry, but that just made my day. :)

Now I am more than open to hear any other new ideas for the new year...:)

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Alt has repeatidly said he will not institute new plans without hunter support. He knows you can't do much without it. They will bring you and your plan down otherwise.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Hi Frank,

Me too <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> saw it in the Greensburg paper yesterday! Now maybe the bowhunters of this state can come up with an alternative. Iffn we don't, I betcha we'll be facing this next year!

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Yeah yeah....he's a Saint<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I thought ALL those hunters supported him. Maybe....just maybe.....we ain't the only ones putting up a fuss about the early doe season? And MAYBE...he is listening at least a little bit......and heard it. But to some of you....even fussing or questioning him is out of line. Well....I beg to differ.

he is NOt going about this neutral like some lead us to believe. He got buyoff from a bowhunting group....and used our season to appease a few folks.....and chose our season cause he does not bowhunt. Maybe in the future if he proves me wrong....i will differ in opinion. but NOTHING done so far leads me to another conclusion. Sorry.

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It amazes me that you can find fault no matter what Alt does. First you say he doesn't listen then when he does you attempt to minimize its significance. Seems like its more of a case of a few Alt haters never being happy than the Altites, Altaholics etc. being star struck. I cant think of one of the &quot;Altites&quot; here who hasn't pointed out parts of Alt's ideas that they weren't fond of. It seems everyone is for smaller DMU's (we all seem to agree on that) But, it also is beginning to look like most of the Alt haters are from the &quot;aint enough deer anymore&quot; camp.

BTW what buyoff?

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

I think they are dropping like the archers asked. They have something else that they think will knock the numbers down as well. I think it is called the crossbow.

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The smallest management unit in place is the county and that is for does only. Only one county is at goal and none are below goal.

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yep...and not everybody agrees to those &quot;goals&quot; from the git-go. You can keep those numbers Mark.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Not crazy about crossbows in archery season, but if we gotta have guns in the October deer woods I would rather it be the &quot;crossgun&quot; and since WE as bowhunters aren't killing that many does in the early season, I dunno maybe we earned it. I could live with crossbows if the guns were held where they are now and we get AR and a male deer tag.

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If I hear one more person repeat the bs that we as bowhunters didn't kill enough doe blah blah blah, I think I'm gonna puke. You talk about being programmed. I personally do not know anyone who doesn't shoot doe in archery season if they get the opportunity and I suspect that carries through for a high percentage statewide. This mantra that some of you have accepted and repeat like some pet store parrot that we archers didn't do our job on doe is just plain stupid in addition to being wrong.

You have bought into this Alt baloney to the point that you &quot;understand&quot; the need to bring guns into the archery season and now we have an admission from one of our resident experts that crossguns would be better than other guns. &quot;Please, Dr. Alt, do whatever you want. [I think you fall prostrate, here.]

What a pathetic state of affairs the Pa. hunting community is in. I just wish I had a nice private preserve to withdraw to and hunt on, and let all the Altites hold hands and recite bogus PGC herd/kill figures to each other until glassy-eyed. But I don't have such a place. Blah!

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Thanks for all the replies, but again it turns into a fight among members. The guy (Alt) has had 2 1/2 - 3 years to make changes, he never said they would all work,but did say he was dedicated to being the best. Quit b itchin on here and go to a meeting and ask questions and pay attention.

Another thing, Pa is a very big state with alot of different elements to manage. Not all units can be managed the same way (on this I agree) but still none of you have come up with the solution to the problem. Just your opinions.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

What's just plain stupid is to continue to rant ad nauseum about the Altites without offering any solution. It's just plain stupid to scream that the PGC numbers are false without facts to back it up! They may not be perfect but, sorry, screaming BLAH! just doesn't refute them!
I'm beginning to feel the same way I feel when I try to argue facts with a PETA type.
Tough to overcome strong emotions no matter what the facts are!
If you still can't understand why it is better for the health of any species to let only the best individuals breed there is no hope you will ever understand any part of whats going on here.

Fight4, please accept my apologies for getting &quot;into the fray&quot; on your thread. Its very difficult, when someone throws the gloves onto the ice and starts swinging, to not do the same. It's great that we all care so much about our sport but terrible we have to attack to get our point across!

Edited by - BTBOWHUNTER on 01/07/2002 16:50:29

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

Bt what part of Alt's planSSS &quot;lets only the best individules breed&quot;??? He has no plan to crop inferior does or bucks for that matter. Kill any doe or let a nice buck breed any doe isn't gunna get it done. Not to mention button bucks.
mark ..just 1 county has met it's goals. Whom set the goals? Whom is it that is providing the &quot;facts&quot; you read? Whom accepts county lines as deer units other than the PGC?
What will it take for some of you guys to wake up and snap out of this spell Alt has cast over you? Give him 2-3 yrs and what? We had pretty good deer hunting in Pa since the 40's. when will you begin to realize it isn't about quality deer it is about lowering numbers. That is the job Alt was given by the PGC lower numbers and get hunters to think we're doing it for their own good.
I will say he is smart enough to get crossbows in, and already some of you whom preached a holier than thou sermon about them are beginning to welcome them.Shrewd guy this Alt, just not a deer manager.

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Ok Ledgen, I had vowed to myself that I would not respond to you again but I will try to answer just one more time and hope it doesn't get you to ranting . If there are fewer does when the rut comes in, only the dominant bucks will get to breed those left. No, I don't , and I suspect Alt doesn't, have a way to weed out inferior does. Natural selection (remember that Darwin guy?) isn't a perfect method but it has worked well over time! We as Pa deer hunters have been short circuting that natural selection somewhat.
As for crossbows, I don't like em in early archery season but am willing to be open minded about their value to cull the does before the rut. But I suspect you don't really support crossbows as much as you love controversy.
By the way, the crossbow reference on the thread where I told the board how proud I was of my kid ( and I'm damn proud of that kid) was absolutely the cheapest of shots. I'm glad he didn't catch your real message.

RE: Dr Alt Meetings.......
 

What is really unfortunate is that most of you don't have any idea how bogus the PGC numbers are. The PGC does nothing scientific to get real numbers. Contrary to their formula spiel they do not check processors to the extent necessary [if at all] to get supporting information to come up with kill figures. They do not have the field data, but the all-knowing Alt knows, he absolutely knows, that we must reduce the deer statewide.

The October gun barrage is necessary to lessen the doe numbers so that because of the unbalanced herd there isn't the late breeding problem. His fawn study last year proved that late breeding is not a problem. READ THE RESULTS ON THE PGC WEBSITE YOURSELF. But you want to know whose fault it is that there is an unbalanced herd? It's your's, Mr. and Mrs. Bowhunting Person, because you didn't shoot the does. That is just plain hoey. And besides, the archery season was never, ever thought of as a deer management arm. Rifles in the gun season (read: doe season) was the method.

All you people who believe the PGC and their bogus figures have nothing in common with the pursuit of truth. My hat is off to the PGC. They have many of you not seeing deer and admitting that you're blind, stupid or worse. It is really a shame.

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BT you have once again lost me with your logic/DBL talk. 1st you say no Oct gun doe season, latter you say gun doe is the means to lower deer numbers . Then you add to that by saying bring less does into the rut so only the dominate bucks will breed.
I guess what I don't understand is how are we going to have lower doe numbers coming into the rut without the fall gun season, which Alt has scraped.And what says all these bucks that are going to get to be grownups are going to vow of celebitcy till then? How are you going to stop them from breeding? and PPPPPlease don't tell me the boss buck will take care of that matter. Cause in the real world that just don't happen. The boss gets with 1 hot doe and sticks to her like glue till she's over it. All the while Jr. is sowing his seeds with the other hot babes.
And you have every right to be proud of your boy. Would think less of you for not. but if he's such a holy terror on deer, it only seems logical that he'd want to try something new, like a crossbow.

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Maybe I missed something, what Altaholic among us has complained about not seeing enough deer. Please name just one?

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I just read over a six page memo by a PGC biologist on how they come up with some of their numbers. We really have no idea how complex their models and formulas are. Of course we don't have degrees in wildlife biology either.

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Boy it is getting a bit rough here. Well Frank asked a question, and since he is happy now ( Well why wouldn't he be New house new wife new bow and new truck life is good my friend) I will give my opinions. One make or change the tags to buck and doe so If you shoot a button your done no buck tag left. Even though If you shoot at a doe and its a button buck you must use you doe tag. It still leaves a racked buck in the woods.

Second thing is to make bow season for deer in PA start sept 1 st or close and make the archers take a doe before they can take a buck. This way archers can have a couple weeks before other weapons come on the sceen.

I also think for a couple years they should impliment deer checking stations so they can get an accurate number on things. Well I hope this didn't start something as this is only an opinion.

Brian

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I will take a stab at this one. Archers need more time in the woods so that they can be more effective in reducing deer numbers.

It takes more time to get a deer within range of a bow when compared with a rifle/muzzleloader, etc.....

Now, as for muzzleloader hunters....I would have no problem with a longer overlap with the regular archery season. Let the Muzzleloaders have the last two or three weeks of the regular archery season as an overlap........you won't hear an argument from me....


...just as long as bowhunters have more time, undisturbed, in the field. Fewer people and less overall disturbance are what is necessary for archery to be used as an effective deer management tool.

As for the crossbow...I have stated my feelings on it several times before....but I have one question. What happened in the last few weeks that everyone is so sure that it is going to be legalized in early archery, or in a separate early crossbow season, next year? I get the feeling that everyone &quot;knows&quot; that it is going to happen, but nobody has stated why they know.

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Once again....it is stated that &quot;we offer no solutions&quot;. BS! We have stated here MANY MANY times alternatives, and solutions that can and would do much the same or better. But it didn't come from a person with a &quot;doctorate&quot;.....please forgive me Mark. I've gone over those formulas too.....nothing secret there....nothing hard to understand....BUT....there are quite a few ASSUMPTIONS within them. Ahhhhh.....but the science of it all is much to great for us common folk to grasp. Horse patoochie!

.....&quot;If you still can't understand why it is better for the health of any species to let only the best individuals breed there is no hope you will ever understand any part of whats going on here.&quot;.....

And just where is that going to happen? We are trying now to put in place a system that shoots the &quot;best of the breed&quot; and allows the &quot;rest&quot; to breed the population. Antler restrictions will save some junior buck....but along with it will also provide a haven for &quot;poor genetic&quot; buck as well. I suppose Alt will just &quot;tell&quot; them not to breed any of his doe? While all along their numbers will grow. Get it right. AR will protect smaller buck. IT WILL NOT ensure that the &quot;best&quot; do the breeding. Not even close. Nor does reducing the doe numbers. But....I guess I am just hopeless and will never comprehend.

sigh...<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

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Brian, Frank,
Right on! Archers represent about 1/3 of Pa hunters. Until we account for 1/3 of the deer kill, our season is not too long. Anyone who envys our extra time in the woods has the option of grabbing a bow and joining us. As for assuming crossbows are inevitable, I personally haven't heard anything new. Still don't want em classified as a bow. Keep track of them seperately and treat them as a seperate weapon. We don't really know what effect they'll have. Maybe start by making them another choice in the early Muzzle/jr-sr doe season. I would rather see them in archery than have the rifles out there in October. Since I support an early doe kill, maybe the crossbow could be an effective alternative to rifles for that purpose. One things for sure, none of us is going to love every change that will take place in the next few years.

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I am waiting to go to Gary Alt's metting in Feb,in my area.As a hunter I believe I have every right to ask even a deer biologist some Questions on where the deer herd is going and why.I may not have a degree but having hunted 40yrs I do believe I know my area alot better then Gary Alt.I just don't understand the reasoning that all these doe are not getting bred as Alt states yet are deer population is way out of control.I have not at least in my area after the season went out and saw all kinds of deer dead because of starvation because they where born too late in the season.I just don't buy the theory that alot of doe do not get breed period if so we would have a population problem in our deer herd.I do believe the smaller bucks do breed alot of doe while the big bucks chase one hot doe as Ledgen stated.
I hate to say this but that is how mother nature works.I have not heard as much fighting between hunters as I have seen since Gary Alt proposed bigger bucks.I have seen some big bucks taken this year on this forum and in my area and not all where shot this season so next year there will be some big bucks left.I just don't understand why do you want to change a deer herd in Pa where hunters from Ohio and Ny flock to every year because of the number of deer seen and yet say not enough doe are being breed or not enough big bucks around.What happened to the if I get a buck I will be thrilled to death if not I will try for a doe and if there is enough all the more chance to get one.I myself just like old fashion deer hunting I don't need a trophy buck behind every tree to get fired up for deer season.This is just my opinion as a Pa deer hunter.

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Terry,

That would be fine with me. I have no problem hunting strictly for does over a longer season. It isn't about a buck for me.

Nor does the idea of denser foliage really apply when it comes to archery. The denser the better. A twenty yard shot is the norm in bowhunting season. And since there are less hunters during bow season.....

The idea of putting it in November/December wouldn't fly though for two reasons that I can think of immediately. One, that is when the rifle seasons are. And two, if you place archery after rifle then less deer will be harvested during that archery season because the deer will already be spooked and there will be much less of them.

September 1st is a viable option that should be instituted.... And again, I have nothing against more time in the field for other hunter groups....give the muzzleloader guys, crossbow guys and rifle guys extended seasons as well.

Ofcourse, we need to keep all of them within reason since the herd can only support so much hunting per deer management unit.

Edited by - PABowhntr on 01/08/2002 13:57:24