RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

I must have missed the rant against shooting BB's, but I do see where that is hypocritical. Sorry if I missed your age also, and if I misinterpreted how your personal preferences were affected, well, that's my mistake too, but I was only going off of what you have posted, and from reading your posts, I think I hit pretty close to the mark.

The large part of my point was that you seem very intolerant of anyone who doesn't ascribe to the same values and philosophies you apply to hunting. The part about anyone who can't, or doesn't want to put in as much effort as you, should take up golf,... that was pretty ignorant. And I know you said you meant it to be just directed at him, but what you typed seemed to indicate an entire class of hunters, actually, "tired, medicore hunters".

My grandfather was a tired, and probably by your standards, a mediocre hunter in his last days, but no one has the right to tell him to get out of the woods and take up golf. He would have been more thrilled with a fork horn than you probably would be with a little 8 point. I just get sick of people acting like there is something wrong with that. That's what hunting is all about, and if you can't see that, than I feel sorry for you.

Personally, I have pretty high standards as to what I will shoot in many places, and actually passed two bucks in the 120's last year waiting on something bigger. But I would NEVER come down on someone for shooting a smaller buck if that is what gives them that great feeling of a successful day afield. What you, and many others seem to be missing, is that for many people, shooting any buck is just as thrilling to them as shooting a P & Y is to you. I don't think you, me or anyone else has the right to tell them they shouldn't feel good about taking a deer like that.

Many of you guy's like to claim it's purely selfish for them to shoot small bucks, but the exact same thing can be applied to the AR situation. In that, those who want to shoot bigger bucks, want more of them, and therefore, are willing to deprive "regular" hunters the chance to shoot a deer that makes them happy in order to have more big bucks for the trophy hunters to choose from. The goals of those who denigrate "buck" hunters are just as selfish as those they belittle. In fact, I would argue that the goals and aims of those people are more selfish, soley because they aim to deprive someone else of taking a deer that holds such value to them, just so that AR guys will have more targets in the woods.

And please don't give me the "health of the herd" line, that is a lot of smoke and mirrors. AR have not been proven in any study I'm aware of to improve the health of the herd. The genetic composition of a buck does not change as he goes from 1.5 yrs old to 4.5 yrs old. That buck will pass on the same genes breeding as a yearling as he would breeding at 4, 5, or 6 years old. If anything, there is evidence from recent studies that indicate antler restrictions actually adversely affect the herd genetics by intentionally protecting ALL bucks with inferior genetics. It's called high-grading.

Now, don't misrepresent what I just typed there. I did not say, nor do I mean to imply, that all spikes and fork horns are genetically inferior deer, but some of them are. Generally, we don't know which ones are until they older, 3.5 yrs old perhaps. But the problem is, that, in Pa's current form, AR protect every one of these deer. So by design, they protect every runt, scrub, dink buck in the herd, While at the same time, they increase pressure on, and removal of, bucks that we know are not inferior, soley by the fact they grew a good rack their first year.

Another factor many people miss when talking about deer management is that programs like this aggressvie herd reduction increase the chances of inbreeding in a herd. In the natural order of things, an adult doe will drive off her buck fawn the following year to prevent this inbreeding. It's called buck dispersal, and I'm sure you guys are aware of it. In many managed areas, hunters strive to pass on the buttons, and kill mature does. They do this in part to prevent buck dispersal (to have more bucks on their land), which in turn leads to unnatural inbreeding. This can also have a negative affect on the helath of the herd.

The fact that antler restrictions are still not proven to actually benefit the health of herd automatically disqualifies that as a reason to support it. The biggest reason for antler restrictions is to increse the number of older, and therefore larger antlered bucks in the herd. This benefits those who want to shoot bigger deer, not necessarily the health of the herd.

You want to brag about working hard, well guess what, there are plenty of good deer in Pa's woods right now. All you have to do is work hard to get them. You don't need regualtions in place to make them more plentiful (and therefore easier to find) to get one, you only have to work a little harder to find them. Yep, it would be much easier to kill a bigger buck with more of them in the woods, but there is no guarantee that AR will give you that.

So, basically, you are belittling other hunters not for the health of the herd, and not even for a guarantee of a bigger buck, but just for the possibility that there may be more big bucks in the woods. I for one do not think it's right for anyone to deprive a hunter the thrill or enjoyment of taking a smaller buck, or to denigrate them for enjoying taking a smaller buck, just so there is a chance I could see more bigger bucks.

Like I said, seemed pretty ignorant to me.

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

In reading your reply I find that I would back down from my previous statement that there should be no exceptions to a 4pt. minimum. I am actually all for exempting senior and junior hunters from this standard. I have always believed that we must give our junior hunters every opportunity to taste success. I also believe that we must make every effort to keep our senior hunters in the fold and reward them for their continued interest in this great activity. I would clarify my statement to say that there should be no exceptions such as in special regulation areas like surrounding Pittsburgh.

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

Why would you want to eliminate the exemption for Jr/Sr. hunters in SRA counties? Over population causes more problems in SRA counties than it does in the big woods and with a goal of 10 DPSM for 2 B ,no deer should be protected until the current population in 2 B of 30 DPSM is reduced to within 20% of the goal OWDD.

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

I'm NOT! I support the junior/senior exemption statewide. I'm talking about the fact that when AR was first instituted there was an exemption put in at the last minute to exclude SR areas from AR.

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

Do you really believe it makes sense to increase the population by saving buck with AR when 2 B is triple it's OWDD goal? That certainly contradicts Alt's claim that we are balancing the herd with the habitat.

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

NJ_B just what part of that didnt you understand?

I meant exactly what I said. That statement was meant specifically for him in the context of his hypocracy about shooting so many BB's when he said right here on this forum that it was a bad by product of the increased pressure on does. It was meant for NO ONE else, unless there are others out there that would rant against something so loudly and then go ahead and do it because it was the convenientthing to do.



I would never criticize your grandfather or anyone else like him in the example you just used...... unless he shot that forkhorn while believing that it was a bad thing to do for the good of the herd and critcizing the PGC for allowing it. That's ALL I was criticizing about old DD! You assumed too much (my age, situation etc)and read between the lines too much.

Show me where I said anything to denigrate someone for taking a small buck! I have said several times that we need to work on a culture change that holds an harvesting immature buck in higher regard than harvesting a doe. There certainly are a lot of people who look down on harvesting does. My guess from your post here is that you might be one of them.


You seem to forget one little problem as it relates to PA... we were virtually letting zero bucks get past 1.5 years. Yes, some high grading will occur but at least now some bucks will be allowed to age past the stupid adolscent stage and then hopefully some of the best learn in that first year how to survive beyond 2.5. Could this be part of the reason for this years lower kill?

Please, give me a break!!! Increased hunting pressure causes LESS dispersal????


Again, who did I call selfish other than one person who demonstrated exactly what I'd call the epitomy of selfishness.

Obviously you and i disagree about deer management but if an apology is owed here you owe one. I responded to one particular glaring example of one posters hypocracy and selfishness and you responded by assuming incorrect facts and putting words in my mouth.

I didnt attack you, I didnt attack your grandfather, I didnt attack any hunter because of his standards being different than mine let alone any group of hunters. I pointed out the double standards of ONE GUY period.
And I'm the ignorant one?????

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

Now you are doing the same thing you accuse me of, reading something into a post that isn't there at all, easy to do isn't it. ;) That is not me at all, and I didn't post anything to lead you to believe that, so, your guess is a bad one.

I'll admit I was generalizing here, and I guess saying "many of you guys" (meaning the entire forced AR crowd) wasn't clear enough. Seems like you and deadeer have a personal thing going, why is that?

And BT, we don't differ that much about deer management. I don't hate antler restrictions, I just don't believe they should be forced state wide. What it comes down to is that you have bought the whole bag of goods, hook, line and sinker. I did that here as well several years ago, but after seeing what happens, have modified my position. I think antler restrictions work great where done on private land, where they can be done correctly, and not infringe on another hunter's preference. I also don't believe they should be forced state wide becuase they are still not proven to do what you have been promised. In fact, like I stated before, recent studies have shown under certain conditions, conditions very similar to the hunting environment in Pa, they are actually bad for the herd. That is just a fact, not my opinion. If you have an issue with that, you need to take it up with the biologists and professional deer managers who concluded such.


As for the attack, well, lets just say that maybe you did intend this one particular post at one particular individual, but it didn't really come across that way to me. In the past, in these same discussions, the same things have been said by you and others about hunters who don't practice passing small bucks, and I was probably generalizing a bit to the entire discussion, not just this individual post.

And about the dispersal question, you should know that adult does are what force young bucks to disperse. If those does are taken out, they will not be there to force the young bucks to new range. Now, again, I'm not saying shooting does is a bad thing, I like to do plenty of that myself. But trying to shoot alot of does, while carefully protecting button bucks, can lead to inbreeding, because those bucks will likely not disperse. Again, not my opinion, but a fact. I've even seen some hunting video's where they tell you to spare every button buck and shoot all the mature does you can so the bucks stay on your ground

Whatever the case, if you and I were on the same lease, you would probably be surprised just how much we agree on, I just adamantly disagree when it comes to forcing my, or anyone elses personal preference statewide. And so much of the AR discussion has been grounded in belittling and trashing hunters as somehow less than worthy if they just want to take a buck, including small bucks. It's one theme that dominates this topic, and I know you have seen it, and taken part in it. It's just plain wrong to make people feel small because they desire to take a small buck (this general comment is directed at everyone who's done it, so don't think I'm twisting your point again, this isn't specific to your post).

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

Would you please get your facts straight and quit misrepresenting the history of our herd. In 2002 we harvested 52.6K 2.5+ buck , which means we carried over at least 65K buck from 2001. That is no where close to your claim that we carried over virtually zero buck before AR.Furthermore, due to AR a lower percentage of 2.5 buck will survive to become 3.5 and those that do survive will be those buck that weren't AR legal as 2.5 buck.


I never ranted about the high BB harvest as you maliciously claim. I simply pointed out that it is an inevitable consequence of implementing AR while attempting to reduce the herd by 50%. shooting BB was never a problem before, but due to AR it is now a problem.

You did a fine job of attacking me and misrepresenting my position on harvesting BB. I don't have a problem with anyone shooting BB and I don't have a problem with anyone being a trophy hunter as long as his trophy hunting doesn't negatively impact my style of hunting and AR does just that.

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

Take a look here, we start with "I never ranted about" and we end with "it is now a problem" I' don't even think I've seen John Kerry flip flop in the same paragraph;)

Thank you DD for proving my point

I dont think so.... see above!

You've even gone one step beyond that! You claim the "BB kill is now a problem" but it was OK for you to kill 6 of 7 BB's this past season.

And, theres the difference between us! It's not that we may simply disagree on AR. You don't have a problem with anyones hunting style so long as it has no impact on YOUR STYLE of hunting. I support AR primarily because I believe it is good for the herd and our sport as well as it fitting my style of hunting.

I've been practicing voluntary AR for years and never once looked down or ctriticized any hunter for ethically harvesting any buck. I welcomed AR not just because it fits my style of hunting but because I believe it is likely to prove to be better for the herd and better for the habitat. I defend AR because I still believe that. Ive hunted out of state where it's part of the hunting culture and I've seen the results. As I and many others have said before, we are only two years into this! I may be proven wrong but I don't believe any real conclusions can be drawn yet.

NJ_B

I do apologize if any of my posts led you or anyone else to believe I intended to demean any hunter for having different standards than I do. I do believe we need to let some bucks get older and that either AR or a limit on buck tags are the only ways to accomplish that statewide. I also do believ we need to reduce the herd although I too question the newly stated goals. I will continue to argue my beliefs. Some points we obviously agree on, some we don't.

I wouldn't even call my differences with ol DD personal but since he is so visible and vocal here and incessantly posts so many "facts" (many out of context IMHO) I thought it important to point out where he's really coming from. His most recent post only reinforces my original conclusion that this is purely about the impact on HIS hunting style.

I dont believe that is the motivation for most folks here but I'm now sure it's his.

I don't believe that is your motivation or mine either... even if you are mistaken on some points;););)

RE: Smaller 2.5 Buucks
 

There is a big difference between ranting about a problem and being hypocritical compared to simply pointing out a problem Alt created the problem of protecting BB by implementing AR before the herd was reduced and you simply can't stand it when someone points out his mistakes. He was wrong about the cause of late breeding and I pointed that out from the start and now the latest research confirms I was right and Alt was wrong.

There are more studies that show AR will negatively impact the health of the herd and there are no studies that show AR will improve the health of the herd. You support AR because you think it will make it easier for you to harvest a trophy and you don't give a rip about the 60 +K hunters that didn't get a buck due to AR in 2003. AR didn't just effect my style of hunting ,it effected the hunting of many thousands of hunters who prefer not to sit in a tree all day with the hopes that someone else will push a deer to them. Some people actually prefer to hunt deer.

The latest research shows an improved B/D ratio and age structure will not shorten the breeding period or provide any other benefit to the health of the herd.

You claim you support herd reduction ,but AR is contrary to herd reduction, so you are contradicting yourself just like Alt. We have more deer that ever before even with record anterless allocations and the longest anterless season ever. Impementing AR was a major mistake because it elevated the status of harvesting a buck and made harvesting a doe the booby prize, which was the exact opposite of what Alt said he wanted to do when this all started.