When to an Alt seminar.
02-23-2002, 04:56 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Industry Pa. USA
Posts: 242
When to an Alt seminar.
I went to one of Dr. Gary Alt’s presentations today in Washington County. It’s something every deer hunter should go to. Don’t delay, it is worth the effort. Alt has done over 200 of them in the last two years and has gotten real good at it.
They mentioned that he has a wildlife biology masters degree and a doctor’s degree in forestry management. He very successful ran our bear program for 25 years and we now have four times the bears and double the bear range than we did when he started. He has hunted deer for 38 years and it is his main passion in life.
Gary started out by welcoming the angry hunters, as they are the most passionate of the deer hunter groups. It showed they cared deeply.
He said we have grown more deer in most areas than the land can support. Winter is the truest bottleneck in deer density. Then the only foods are often browse such are stems and buds. In northern areas like Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire and Canada, their winter kills off the deer so they do have a lot of browse available for the remaining deer. A doe harvest program is not needed. Pennsylvania is south enough that we do not see these heavy winter kill offs and the food is the limiting factor then. He called Pa. a transition zone. South of us, winter kills are very rare and north of us, very common.
He noted that we hunters have always demanded more deer and the Game Commission did not always do a good job of educating us why that is a bad idea.
We can’t raise the deer herd to where it destroys the habitat and crashes eventually. It is not just starvation of the adult deer that can happen. They may not be able to successfully breed if unnourished. They need to weigh at least 80 pounds. He noted that 50% of the fawns in a good area are successfully bred and it may take till the doe is three years old in other areas. Or they may abort the embryo. Or once it has the fawn, the doe may not be able to produce the needed milk. The fawn will cry out with a bleat and attack predators to an easy meal.
The habitat that the deer are destroying affects other aspects of society besides hunters. He noted he was challenged in court on his bear program and it was run scientifically and he won the cases. He wants to run the deer program the same way. If we don’t do what is best for the deer and the habitat, society will challenge our handling of deer management in court sooner or later. So we have to move from our wants to what is best for the deer and its environment.
He noted that our state kills off its bucks at a younger overall age than any state in the union. He would like to at least get up from last place. He hopes to eventually make Pa. a leader in deer management.
In this area, Washington County, we kill over 90% of our bucks every year. Over 80% of them are 1.5 years old. Only 1 out of a hundred bucks make it to prime age of 4.5 years and he has only ever seen 3 bucks that were at least 5.5 years old.
He said that age was by far the most important ingredient in getting a prime buck. Then came food and finally genetic. He said the genetics of Pa.’s deer are very good.
He spoke of the popular insurance company theory. He said though he expected to hear from an insurance company rep. when he first took this job, that in the 2.5 years he has had this job, he has never heard from anyone in the insurance industry. He felt they probably just set rates based on the number of deer collisions in each state as part of a premium formula computation. So what the heck would they care, we are paying for it.
He spoke of the road kill embryo studies. 90% were breed from 10/16 to 12/16 and he would like to narrow that down some. He said deer are pulse birth animals. They want to birth about the same time to overwhelm the predators. While they are eating one fawn, another is growing enough that they can escape. Does are in heat for up to 30 hours once every 30 days. They learned through this study that they were breed from Sept. 9th to Feb. 23rd.
Finding a buck to breed after rifle season can be quite an accomplishment in most areas. That is one reason we need to get the buck/doe ratio closer together and allow some more of our bucks to live every year.
He also gave some of the reasons it is important to age our bucks. They win the battles and we know this was the strongest genes are being passed on. Plus the younger deer don’t understand the program and harass the does trying to mate when they aren’t ready. This stress’s both of them and makes winter survival in question. A dominant buck in an area will not allow this to happen.
The show of hands supporting antler restrictions was over 90% of the 700 people that went.
He talked of the studies they are doing and an independent survey that should be done next month.
He plans to have habitat based DMU’s next year and some sort of landowner tag program to help get hunters access and handling spot over population problems.
He noted that we can’t always set regulations based on hunters wants. We don’t ask the kids if the want to brush their teeth, but rather what kind of tooth paste would they like.
He wants to try to restore damaged habitat in certain areas by using hunters to reduce the population. He thinks the PR will be good for us to the non-hunting shareholders. Might even get us access to now closed lands. His saying is, “We, the hunters, are leading the charge to fix the forests in Pa.”
They mentioned that he has a wildlife biology masters degree and a doctor’s degree in forestry management. He very successful ran our bear program for 25 years and we now have four times the bears and double the bear range than we did when he started. He has hunted deer for 38 years and it is his main passion in life.
Gary started out by welcoming the angry hunters, as they are the most passionate of the deer hunter groups. It showed they cared deeply.
He said we have grown more deer in most areas than the land can support. Winter is the truest bottleneck in deer density. Then the only foods are often browse such are stems and buds. In northern areas like Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire and Canada, their winter kills off the deer so they do have a lot of browse available for the remaining deer. A doe harvest program is not needed. Pennsylvania is south enough that we do not see these heavy winter kill offs and the food is the limiting factor then. He called Pa. a transition zone. South of us, winter kills are very rare and north of us, very common.
He noted that we hunters have always demanded more deer and the Game Commission did not always do a good job of educating us why that is a bad idea.
We can’t raise the deer herd to where it destroys the habitat and crashes eventually. It is not just starvation of the adult deer that can happen. They may not be able to successfully breed if unnourished. They need to weigh at least 80 pounds. He noted that 50% of the fawns in a good area are successfully bred and it may take till the doe is three years old in other areas. Or they may abort the embryo. Or once it has the fawn, the doe may not be able to produce the needed milk. The fawn will cry out with a bleat and attack predators to an easy meal.
The habitat that the deer are destroying affects other aspects of society besides hunters. He noted he was challenged in court on his bear program and it was run scientifically and he won the cases. He wants to run the deer program the same way. If we don’t do what is best for the deer and the habitat, society will challenge our handling of deer management in court sooner or later. So we have to move from our wants to what is best for the deer and its environment.
He noted that our state kills off its bucks at a younger overall age than any state in the union. He would like to at least get up from last place. He hopes to eventually make Pa. a leader in deer management.
In this area, Washington County, we kill over 90% of our bucks every year. Over 80% of them are 1.5 years old. Only 1 out of a hundred bucks make it to prime age of 4.5 years and he has only ever seen 3 bucks that were at least 5.5 years old.
He said that age was by far the most important ingredient in getting a prime buck. Then came food and finally genetic. He said the genetics of Pa.’s deer are very good.
He spoke of the popular insurance company theory. He said though he expected to hear from an insurance company rep. when he first took this job, that in the 2.5 years he has had this job, he has never heard from anyone in the insurance industry. He felt they probably just set rates based on the number of deer collisions in each state as part of a premium formula computation. So what the heck would they care, we are paying for it.
He spoke of the road kill embryo studies. 90% were breed from 10/16 to 12/16 and he would like to narrow that down some. He said deer are pulse birth animals. They want to birth about the same time to overwhelm the predators. While they are eating one fawn, another is growing enough that they can escape. Does are in heat for up to 30 hours once every 30 days. They learned through this study that they were breed from Sept. 9th to Feb. 23rd.
Finding a buck to breed after rifle season can be quite an accomplishment in most areas. That is one reason we need to get the buck/doe ratio closer together and allow some more of our bucks to live every year.
He also gave some of the reasons it is important to age our bucks. They win the battles and we know this was the strongest genes are being passed on. Plus the younger deer don’t understand the program and harass the does trying to mate when they aren’t ready. This stress’s both of them and makes winter survival in question. A dominant buck in an area will not allow this to happen.
The show of hands supporting antler restrictions was over 90% of the 700 people that went.
He talked of the studies they are doing and an independent survey that should be done next month.
He plans to have habitat based DMU’s next year and some sort of landowner tag program to help get hunters access and handling spot over population problems.
He noted that we can’t always set regulations based on hunters wants. We don’t ask the kids if the want to brush their teeth, but rather what kind of tooth paste would they like.
He wants to try to restore damaged habitat in certain areas by using hunters to reduce the population. He thinks the PR will be good for us to the non-hunting shareholders. Might even get us access to now closed lands. His saying is, “We, the hunters, are leading the charge to fix the forests in Pa.”
02-23-2002, 05:35 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Stanton PA USA
Posts: 2,213
RE: When to an Alt seminar.
WOW! 90% of the attendees showed support for AR? You must have had every member of the UBP there!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Thank`s for the info, and I will make one of his meetings soon.
Mitch
Mitch
02-23-2002, 05:38 PM
#3
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Industry Pa. USA
Posts: 242
RE: When to an Alt seminar.
It was over 90% and I was being conservative. Alt knows his stuff, explains it clearly and it is therefore very convincing. That would not of been the percentage at the start of the seminar.
02-23-2002, 09:14 PM
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Indiana PA USA
Posts: 3,656
RE: When to an Alt seminar.
Okay, mhogan, I don't want to start a fight, but when have you ever seen a deer in Pennsylvania that was starving to death? Seriously? I have never seen a deer in Pennsylvania that is starving. I have never seen a deer eating shrubs. I have seen deer eating acorns and corn during the winter that were left over from fall. They eat tons of foods in the woods. They are very resourceful. I really don't see a huge problem with our deer herd. I don't see starving deer, I don't see malnutrioned deer, I don't see midget fawns. I see good, healthy, quality deer in Pennsylvania. As for his stats on hunters taking smaller bucks, Alt is making himself out to be an elite person. He is making himself out to be better than those hunters who take the smaller bucks. He is trying to get a mindset of "hey, you aren't a true hunter, because you don't care about the antler size" I know that I am going to hear it for that, but it is true. It has not been against the law to shoot a small buck, so why not? If you are a weekend hunter or a young kid, why not? If it is legal to do, why not shoot a small one? There is a very simple solutiong to Alt's problem with archers not killing enough does. Make a archery doe tag and a rifle doe tag. He wants the doe tags used to kill doe in archery season, but rifle hunters are buying them to use during the regular doe season. So, why not make a archery doe tag system. Hand out the amount of doe tags they want archers to kill. This way, the archers can have a good chance to get a tag and harvest a doe. Then, after archery season, hand out rifle doe tags. That way the rest of the doe they want killed off can be done by rifle hunters. It is a simple solution that would allow the PGC to have more control over the doe harvest. Seriously, does anybody have a better idea that will keep everyone happy? As for his "deer are eating shrubs" why the heck wouldn't the PGC spend some of the money they recieve of planting huge food plots on public land? It wouldn't cost all the much and if it was an annual seed, then the plot would last up to 6 years on one planting. This would allow the deer to be even more "healthy" but it would do what Alt REALLY WANTS. It would bring more money into our state because the bucks racks would grow and hunters from other states would pay big money to hunt here. There are so many possabilities other than what the PGC is doing. They seem to want to divide up hunters, making the rifle hunters the "saviors of our deer herd" and they want to make the archers the "hunters who got our state into trouble" How can archery hunter like Alt? He has stated that he likes the early rifle/muzzleloader season because it won't allow archers to harvest as many animals. He stated that. He has stated that the archers of our state are what got us into trouble. He doesn't archery hunt, so why in the world would he want to help archers out. He doesn't hunt public land, so why does he care about public land. He probablly has a nice piece of land that is posted to everyone. Sure, I will give it to him, he has some good credentials, but his plans are not what I would call "high quality". He should have started his deer management by making a buck/doe tag instead of antlered/antlerless. He should have also figured out a ACCURATE way to count the amount of deer killed each year. He should have also made MICROmanage plans and put them into effect, but no, he had to put the early rifle/muzzleloader season in to mess with the archers. He KNEW that it would make alot of archers furious, did he care though? NO! He just figures that archers are the minority so they aren't as important.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
"Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
"Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"
02-23-2002, 09:39 PM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: When to an Alt seminar.
Mark, just curios, did the idea of a male deer tag happen to come up?
Buck magnet, Youve said before that most of your woods time is in Indiana Co right? Actual starvation hasn't happened much lately due to our mild winters. On the other hand, we have many areas where the deer are undernourished and the woods is like a golf course with lots of trees but no understory. No, most of our deer are not starving, there are in many parts of Pa too many for the available food supply.
Buck magnet, Youve said before that most of your woods time is in Indiana Co right? Actual starvation hasn't happened much lately due to our mild winters. On the other hand, we have many areas where the deer are undernourished and the woods is like a golf course with lots of trees but no understory. No, most of our deer are not starving, there are in many parts of Pa too many for the available food supply.
02-23-2002, 10:06 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Stanton PA USA
Posts: 2,213
RE: When to an Alt seminar.
BM, what in tarnation are you talking about?
Alt said right from the beginning that he was going to do what is best for the herd, and he would do it without worrying what group of hunters would be happy, or sad. I have never seen Alt say that deer were starving, yet! It would be tough for you to see that in indiana, anyway. Lots of farms up your way. Good mast crops, and not heavily populated with deer. I live in farm country, too, right where it meets urban sprawl. I see deer eating shrubs in yards all winter long.
I have been a serious bowhunter since way before you were around, and I am still as crazy about it as you are. If Alt has to mess up "my" archery season for a year or two, to make things better, then go right ahead.
And, Alt does not have some good credentials as a biologist. His credentials are "unmatched"! To say he is an elitest, what does that mean? That has no meaning in this discussion. He did not put a rifle season in october this coming year.
I am an archery hunter, and I like what Alt is trying to do. Obviously, a whole bunch of archers feel the same way.
Alt is correct in stating that the archers have not killed enough does. You may have a good plan about the archery doe tags. I do like that concept. I gotta tell you BM, I know you don`t mean it, but you`re sounding like the most successful pig farmer in PA. A bunch of griping, but no helping. Did you go to an Alt meeting, and propose your thoughts? Did you write any letters?
If you don`t mind, I will call/write, whatever it takes to get your archery doe tag proposal to him. I fear that our only chance to stop rifle hunts in october is to shoot a bunch of does ourselves.
By the way, is that rack you are holding the one that scores in the 150`s?
If it is, turn it to the side a little bit for me, please. I always like to see a big rack!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> That`s why I married my wife!
Alt said right from the beginning that he was going to do what is best for the herd, and he would do it without worrying what group of hunters would be happy, or sad. I have never seen Alt say that deer were starving, yet! It would be tough for you to see that in indiana, anyway. Lots of farms up your way. Good mast crops, and not heavily populated with deer. I live in farm country, too, right where it meets urban sprawl. I see deer eating shrubs in yards all winter long.
I have been a serious bowhunter since way before you were around, and I am still as crazy about it as you are. If Alt has to mess up "my" archery season for a year or two, to make things better, then go right ahead.
And, Alt does not have some good credentials as a biologist. His credentials are "unmatched"! To say he is an elitest, what does that mean? That has no meaning in this discussion. He did not put a rifle season in october this coming year.
I am an archery hunter, and I like what Alt is trying to do. Obviously, a whole bunch of archers feel the same way.
Alt is correct in stating that the archers have not killed enough does. You may have a good plan about the archery doe tags. I do like that concept. I gotta tell you BM, I know you don`t mean it, but you`re sounding like the most successful pig farmer in PA. A bunch of griping, but no helping. Did you go to an Alt meeting, and propose your thoughts? Did you write any letters?
If you don`t mind, I will call/write, whatever it takes to get your archery doe tag proposal to him. I fear that our only chance to stop rifle hunts in october is to shoot a bunch of does ourselves.
By the way, is that rack you are holding the one that scores in the 150`s?
If it is, turn it to the side a little bit for me, please. I always like to see a big rack!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> That`s why I married my wife!
02-23-2002, 11:21 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Indiana PA USA
Posts: 3,656
RE: When to an Alt seminar.
Hey Big Country, actually, I e-mailed the Game Commission, I proposed some plans, and I also told them about this Northeat Forum. I told them that it would a great way to find out what the true outdoorsman of this state think. I actually talked to a Game Warden on the chat from Pennsylvania. I told him about the e-mail and he said "I never thought about this being a good place to find information". I will admit that I hunt in Indiana County, and we do have a ton of food year round for deer, but I have been to Cooks Forest and Clear Creek State Park alot. That is what most people call "the big woods part" and I will agree that the deer aren't as big, but I never saw a starving deer there.
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
"Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"
Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet
"Hunting is not a sport, it is a passion, it is a WAY OF LIFE"
02-24-2002, 12:20 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Little Egg harbor NJ
Posts: 1,279
RE: When to an Alt seminar.
Buck Magnet did you ever go to the poconos area deer hunting. I bet not. I have hunted Deleware state forest for a while now and have seen some small deer and a good number of under nurished ones too. But I have also seen my share of big ones too. But yes I can say that I have seen some starving deer in PA. I used to have a house in east stroudsberg area and seen them before and felt very bad for them and tried to feed them as much as I could.
Mark thanks for the info. I wish I could get out to one of these meetings as I would just love to be there.
BTBowhunter I really got to meet you and sit infront of a fire and just BS about this with some guys. We are just on the same page with regarding PA hunting. Hey that would be a great get together. Just sitting around talking about our passion of deer hunting and what is best for our herd. Maybe when He comes to the east side of Pa BTB I will see you at a meeting. I would love to say hi. Where is apollo at?
brian
Mark thanks for the info. I wish I could get out to one of these meetings as I would just love to be there.
BTBowhunter I really got to meet you and sit infront of a fire and just BS about this with some guys. We are just on the same page with regarding PA hunting. Hey that would be a great get together. Just sitting around talking about our passion of deer hunting and what is best for our herd. Maybe when He comes to the east side of Pa BTB I will see you at a meeting. I would love to say hi. Where is apollo at?
brian
02-24-2002, 01:29 AM
#10
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Industry Pa. USA
Posts: 242
RE: When to an Alt seminar.
It is not easy to starve something to death. Once that has happened, some arrests need to me made of the game management officials. That is gross mismanagement. They have many other ways of determining when deer are under-nourished as I indicated above.
They talked o buck tags and the general lack of support that idea has received. The crowd had thinned to maybe 100 by the time he asked for a show of hands that supported that program and 4 people raised their hands. Most people just want to hunt.
They talked o buck tags and the general lack of support that idea has received. The crowd had thinned to maybe 100 by the time he asked for a show of hands that supported that program and 4 people raised their hands. Most people just want to hunt.