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RE: Antler restrictions: another view

I do believe your on the right track. It's hard to generalize the hole state of Pa. That's why we need management areas. Some area have the biggins' already, and there are areas that don't.

you have to remember something about Alt. He did very similar thing with the bears. Anyone remember when you weren't aloud to shoot cubs? How about 1 bear to a roster?
I remember hunting one year, we had 25 guys on our camp roster. 10 minutes after shooting time, bang....25 guys were done hunting for bear season.

Anyway, Alt got the knowledge, and will turn things around. We must be patient, and be open to new ideas. If we can do this, the herd will get better.

Only Hoyt

RE: Antler restrictions: another view

You guys still dont get it.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

RE: Antler restrictions: another view

NJbowhunter,first I dont totally disagree with pt restrictions.But since you brought it up.I will ask you the same question I ask Alt.He could not answer it.Name me the 5 top states that produce big healthy trophy buck that have a AR program? And what size was the buck you shot last? And where did you shoot it?,so we can relate your experience with your goals for PA. He refused to answer it.All State employess work for me and I would like to know if he practices what he preaches. Whats he hiding? I know. bottom line all people across the country that are in Alts postionare are FIRST a politician,second they care about the hunters.So Im just not picking on him . Do your self a favor if your really in to this management program stuff travel and hunt in states that have already went thru what Pa is going thru.Ask the locals what the end result was.I watched The States of Texas,Ill., Iowa go thru this I know what I seen.

RE: Antler restrictions: another view

It sounds to me like this guy is just another expert want to be. In the pre-notes at the onset of the article it stated that this was his opinion . He was just fortunate to have it published in a national sporting magazine. We all have opinions and like it or not thats all they are. However it is important that we voice our opinions so though that those who are making the decicions know how we feel. I just came from one of Dr. Alts presentations and I must say that if you have'nt been to one you owe it to yourself and to the sport we all love so well to do so before drawing your conclusions. After attending this presentation I have a better understanding of the direction they would like to move in. It is not entirely about producing big racked bucks. Its more about preserving all wildlife and their habitat so that our sons, daughters and grandchildren can have a chance to enjoy what we have for the last 30 or so years. Its about bringing the deer herds in check so that they can survive. Because of things like urban sprawl and a decline in the amount of hunters over the past decade. The deer population has exploded. There are more deer than ever before and less habitat than ever to support them. Its plain to see that the managment practices that they have been using are not working. So why not give them a chance to make it right. I think most of us would agree that Dr. Alt has done a excellent job with the black bear in Pa. So why not give this program a chance. This is my opinion: I think that within two or three years we will be pleased.<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

God Bless & Good Hunting
LM/NAHC
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RE: Antler restrictions: another view

Your correct ,but look at Texas,Cant hunt without paying and Ill. WOW last time I was there I was almost beat up when I stopped for gas.Why cause I was a NR hunter,or just go to Bowsite.net and the ill. site and see how they feel about the situation.I quess one thing that bothers me is Pa. does not have any numbers to show.they wont give any figures on what they want to reduce the herd to. The statewide program should be broken down into smaller areas.Plus the Bait and swithch tatctics there using makes them suspect in my mind. The way the state has gotten the support from hunters is very sneaky. At every meeting they say this program is to bring the state deer herd into check.We must lowerer the population.The faces on the crowd show a disgruntle look.Then they say but a side effect will be big bucks.Then you can just see the room light up with crazed imaginations of trophy bucks.So they jump on the hooray Mr. Alt bandwagon. Result they just were suckered with the old bait and switch game.5 years from now when the same hunter is seeing 5 deer a week instead of 5 a day,I wonder how happy they will be.And a chance of taking one buck every five years hits home.Plus once the doe are killed off,by by to the multiple doe permits.

RE: Antler restrictions: another view

cardeer I understand what your saying, but the numbers issue was addressed in the forum I just came from. Dr. Alt elaborated on the fact that the population is higher in some areas of the state than others and that they are trying to collect data so that they can break the state down into smaller areas called deer managment units.
I'm sorry that you got such an unwelcome reception in Ill. I have hunted as a NR in Ill. the last 2 years and felt very welcome. In fact I've made some good friends.
As far as being suckered. I don't feel that way at all. One has to be realistic when it comes to whitetail managment. If you think that your going to see a monster buck peeking from behind every tree, you are fooling nobody but yourself. Monster bucks don't get to be big by sticking their neck out. Dr. Alt is not promising that everyone is going to harvest monster bucks. He is just saying that we can not continue to go down the path we are on if we want to continue to hunt any wildlife.
I belong to a group of dedicated hunters in north central Pa. that have been under are own QDM program for the last 9 years. We don't all kill monsters every year but there are a few nice bucks taken every year. We will not shoot any thing less than a 6 point. But we do harvest as many does as the law will allow.
I'm just saying that people should look at the proposal with an open mind

Thanks for your reply and thanks for listening.:)

God Bless & Good Hunting
LM/NAHC
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Member QDMA
Member Ducks Unlimited

RE: Antler restrictions: another view

Cardeer, I agree with you, none of the states that consistently produce the jaw dropping racks have mandatory antler restrictions. John had a good point; what they do have is a short gun season, which is intended to protect bucks.

John, I do like the idea of antler point restrictions, and I know it's only one part of a QDM program, but right now it's the most contested part so that's what I brought up. The reason I'm against this is because it's state wide. I think that is a mistake. I also see people buying the argument that this is being considered for the health of the herd, and that is pattenly false, more on that later.

Big Country
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What I cannot agree with... how is this guy qualified to say that Alt, or anyone else is moving too fast, too slow, too anything. I think we are on uncharted ground in pa, due to our unique circumstances
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BT Bowhunter
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It's funny how Dr Alts peers, wildlife biologists, all seem to support his ideas. Some admittedly are watching with caution because as Big Country said, we are entering uncharted waters. His opponenets, however, dont cite any science when they make their case.
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Show me a wildlife biologist that is willing to give us scientific evidence that Alt is wrong, going too fast or that we cant make Pa's herd better and healthier!
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I have questioned why he was moving so fast before and been blasted as not having the credentials to question Dr. Alt by these same posters. I agree, Alt is the biologist and scientist here, but the thing is, you don't need to be an expert to see the problem with this current plan. And that is the scary part, anyone using common sense should be able to see it, but many refuse to do so. Here is what I mean. In the previous threads on this topic, everyone here has acknowledged that the deer herd in Pa. is different from one corner of the state to the next. Dr. Alt has himself said that in some area's the herd is over populated, in some it's in good shape and in others the numbers could probably come up some, everyone has agreed to that here before. For this stage of the game, that is all we need from the experts and science. These facts, and common sense tell us that the herd is already healthy in some area's, and is below the carrying capacity in others, so why should you belive that this statewide, blanket plan is for the health of the herd, when the herd is doing well in some area's already?

New Jersey has antler point requirements in some zones, but before they enacted them, they had volumes or data to rely on. For years, biologists were dispatched to deer check stations on the opening day of firearms season to gather data on deer. They took the age of the deer, the weight, antler diameter and number of points on yearling bucks, and other information to assess the overall health of deer in different area's of the state. After compiling data, the Game Council enacted antler point restrictions in zones that had the potential to produce larger deer if they were protected to gain a little age. The zones chosen were based on that data, the soil quality, food availabilty and quailty, and hunting pressure in that area. Pa. has done none of this yet, so where is the science to support antler restrictions state wide? Since everyone admits this is new territory, why not do it in selected area's and evaluate it's success there? Personally, I think it will show benefits, and it will give all hunters more time to warm up to the idea.

The primary reason I oppose the current proposal is one of choice, and hunters enjoying the hunting experience. I think that hunters should have a choice in their pursuit of deer. Not everyone hunts for big racks, some people get great satisfaction from taking a spike or four pointer, and since they pay the same amount of money as the trophy hunters of the state, they should be permitted to enjoy hunting as they please.

Right now, no one is stopping any of you guys from passing on on small bucks and waiting for a larger buck. However, if you get your way, everyone else will be forced to adhere to your hunting philosophy. It's clear that the health of the herd is not the real reason for this, so maybe you need to ask what is?

RE: Antler restrictions: another view

Ok I guess I gotta admit that Ken Piper is listed as "online editor" of Buckmasters magazine. I also leafed through a handful of back issues and didn't come across him once other than that listing. So now I've heard of him. That doesn't make him a respected authority.

NJB I know your heart is in the right place so don't mistake my disagreement for "blasting you"

I feel I must point out that you really didn't have much of a response to my challenge to name a wildlife professional who has a problem with Pa's chosen path. Common sense tells you Alt is moving too fast. Well, unfortunately, one mans common sense is anothers nonsense. Most of the common sense arguements you cite are the first thing addressed in his public meetings. He is working on more efficient DMU's. The big sweeping changes are not perfect and he admits that. The present proposals are not intended to be put in place and forgotten. They are, according to science, expected to improve things in the majority of situations. Where additional tweaking is warranted, it will happen. Have you ever heard Dr Alt speak on these issues?

No scientist has disputed Alts ability, methods or goals. Professionals do make mistakes, and Dr Alt has readily admitted that he has made them and will likely make more. It's how we learn when we enter new territory and this is new territory.

I'm curious, how did it become clear to you that the health of the herd is not the issue here?

Dont get me wrong, I have lots of ideas that I think would work too. Some of Gary Alts ideas might upset some of my hunting traditions and preferences too. I am willing to be patient,however, and give a damn good wildlife biologist a chance to help improve the health and habitat of my favorite game animal in my home state.

One more thing, I have been passing immature bucks for close to 10 years. What good does it do when 90% of our bucks die wearing their first rack?